My First FA. Questions before i buy.

NFACurious · February 26, 2006, 05:56 PM

Ok. First of all, whats the difference between an m16 and an ar-15 besides the FA part.

Second, if i buy an m16 registered for .223/5.56 nato, and i buy an upper that changes the calibers, can i not use it because its registered for that caliber? can i re-register it for other calibers?

Third. Again if i buy another upper with a barrel legnth under 16 inches (ie SBR). Do i have to do another from 4 or form 1 whichever and go through the process again??

I havent found an m-16 yet or ever aquired the forms. This is stuff i want to know before i go down the road.

Thanks in advance.

Samuel_Hoggson · February 26, 2006, 07:22 PM

1. Essentially, no difference.......FA parts excepted (including autosear, properly drilled autosear hole in lower receiver, FA hammer, selector, etc.). To get more picky, it's less of an M16 vs. AR15 issue than it is a machine gun vs. semiauto issue. For eg., many legally owned MGs of this type are stamped AR15. These are: registered AR15 conversions (eg. SP1 conversions), or the RDIASs (registered autosears) and LLs (lightning links) that can be installed (with varying degrees of modifications required) in almost any AR type lower receiver.

2. Uh, no. Most of us use 9mm uppers, .22LR uppers........pretty much whatever you want, and there is no need for additional paperwork. FS Uzis are often registered as .22/9mm/.45. Yet conversions for .40 exist and are used with apparent impunity by owners. Oftentimes 1919s are F4 listed as 30 cal, yet folks routinely get 8mm kits for these. The ATF F4 requires that you specify caliber(s), but there is no corresponding enforceable regulation......a quirk, I suppose.

3. If you own a M16 (RR, conversion, RLL, RDIAS) you can have as many shorty uppers as you wish. If you also happen to own non-NFA AR receivers you must not - repeat, must not - attach these uppers else you have an unregistered SBR. Some argue that you should not even have such a lower receiver on premises. The issue gets kicked around alot on subguns.com. My .02 is that the concept of constructive possession has been pretty well debunked.

Here's a helpful site: http://www.titleii.com

Sam

NFACurious · February 26, 2006, 11:25 PM

Sam,

Thank you very much for the reply. It was very helpful!

So i do or do not have to find one registered in multiple calibers, or if its just registered for .223/5.56, i can then just put a different caliber upper on w/o notifying the BATF?

Now, what is the difference between RR, RLL, and RDIAS. I'm not familiar with these terms.

Also, i'm hopeing, they made M16's with with safe semi 3rd and FA before the cut off date?? How much are these running now a days? If you can give me the answer to this before i figure it out for my self i'd be most appreciative. Again thank you for the info!

Asmodeous · February 27, 2006, 08:31 AM

Transferable Colt M16s run from $12-$20,000 depending on model (onlt the very scare madels at the high priced dealers see the top end of that. You can find all the shooters you want for less than $14,000).

Registered receiver M16 conversions on a variety of receivers can be found from $9-12,000.

RDIAS are running $10-$12,000

Lightning Links are running $7-$9000

Have fun

Samuel_Hoggson · February 27, 2006, 06:30 PM

Again, yes, you can play the caliber game.

So you want to learn about sears and links? Go to http://www.quarterbore.com. Click on the M16 link and go from there.

Asmodeous' prices are pretty spot on. To go further, RR 16s break down as: 16s and 16A1s in the 12 to 14k range. 16A2s generally start at over 14 and work up to 18k.

There are also some "more collectible" rare variants. Be very, very, very careful here as anyone can install any upper on any 16 lower.

As for three rd burst - well, most 16 owners want nothing to do with this.......but.......yeah, you can get the parts (including 3 or 4 position selector), install, and have at it. AFAIK this can be done to any M16 receiver - whether A1 or A2. I do not know how burst parts would work with a LL or DIAS. Just not a direction I'd ever want to go.

Sam

TexasSIGMan · February 27, 2006, 07:26 PM

I've never seen 3 round burst with a Lightning Link.

Just getting the darned thing to be select fire was enough PITA for me.
Problem with select fire Lightning Links is that if you remove the link you still have M16 fire control parts in your (now non-NFA) receiver, a big no no.

Lots of people poo poo the RLL (registerd lightning link) but I have always had good luck with mine once the right receiver, bolt carrier and timing issues were resolved initially.

And as you say, not sure why anyone would want burst anyway.

NFACurious · February 27, 2006, 07:43 PM

Thanks for the info. I will NOT get a lightning link, they don't appear to be safe or reliable to me.

LL's and RDIAS defeat the pourpose to me, iono. I want an m-16, not a converted ar-15. It just isn't the same IMO.

Sorry TexasSIGMan. I do not mean to poo-poo on what you own. If you like the lightning link then awesome for you =) glad you are happy with your choice.

From what i understand... The purpose of that safty sear is to give the bolt enough time to lock before the next round goes off, and if it doesn't, bad things will happen. Atleast so i'm told.

Correct me if i'm wrong. Which i probably am. But the only thing that is irreplaceable on a registered m-16 is the actual lower reciever? If thats not the case, then why doesnt everybody buy RDIAS and LL's and just build new ar-15's around them as they break?

Ugh just when i THINK i have everything figured out, a new variable shows up.

And plus since i want to get some shorty uppers, a LL or RDIAS would make those uppers illegal to own if the LL or RDIAS is not in the gun at all times correct?

TexasSIGMan · February 27, 2006, 07:50 PM

Oh they are safe and reliable, but not M16's.

One advantage they have however is that you can move from lower to lower.

The registered drop-in auto sear is a VERY nice way to go. You have access to pretty much any lower you want to make go full auto.

Are you looking for investment or shooter?

RDIAS would be my choice if I were going to start from scratch (for a shooter).

If you're looking for collectibility then sure, the M16 is great, but if you wear something out well..... it gets interesting.

Something to consider anyway. Don't move fast or make rash decisions with this stuff, it can cost you a fortune.

NFACurious · February 27, 2006, 08:09 PM

Sorry texassigman, i was editing my post after i read yours, and then my browswer crashed. argh.

I didn't mean to poo poo on your investment there texas. If it makes you happy then awesome =).

My next questions were just that. What can you replace on an m-16 when it breaks? I thought only the receiver was under restriction?

Makes sense if the case is all the wearable items on an m-16 are unreplaceable, then i probably will just get an rdias for shooting and eventually one day an m-16 for collection.

But how is an rdias gonna affect me haveing different "shorty" uppers. As soon as that rdias or LL is taken out, then definately the rifle becomes an SBR and illegal.

But since the LL and the RDIAS are themselves registered as a machine gun, then would putting a shorty upper on the gun its installed in an illegal SBR with a legal auto-sear/lightning link? argh i'm so confused! Every time i think i get everything figured out, wham, another hair pin turn to negotiate.

Ok lets try this edit thing once more. I re-read Sam's post and it seems aslong as the autosear is in the gun then the shorty's are ok. My bad, let hands type before mind thinks.

I think i'm gonna go read every word written on titleii.com and get back with you all later. thanks for all the info!

TexasSIGMan · February 27, 2006, 08:55 PM

No no, I understand. I bought my Lightning Link for $350 a long time ago, it was all I could afford and it's run fine.

I was just saying go slow regardless of what you do, wouldn't want to get bit with this much money on the line

As for the parts you are correct. If you take out the RLL or RDIAS, the gun no longer can be SBR as well. You can still own the upper, just not have it attached to any lowers. Used to be a fear of "constructive intent" but the Thompson Contender case pretty much settled that.

I have an AR also registered as an SBR since I don't want to fool with all of it, but you are right in your understanding. It can get confusing.

The next question is would you really move it around that much? Hard to tell. If you're into multiple calibers you very well might.

The receiver itself is the important part with a RR M16 (or conversion, there were some Ar's drilled to be the same as an M16). Every part in there you can replace or have worked on except the receiver itself. Some of the sear pin holes wallow out and get sloppy, hard to fix. Rare but it happens. As for repairs I've heard of people having receivers re-welded but I don't know what success rate there is for that.

I suppose you could break an RDIAS too, dunno much about those.

With my RLL you break or bend the paddle end pretty regularly, but that's not the piece with the serial number so it's easily replaced.

Lots of cash laying out there!

Asmodeous · February 27, 2006, 10:50 PM

I have a half dozen AR receivers that are registered in PA as pistols, as a little extra insurance for all the short barrelled uppers I have floating around when they are not on my M16s. I'm also in the process of transferring two SBR receivers, so I can make use of some of the uppers when not on the 16's (a 14.5" pistol is a little cumbrous).

As far as worrying about breaking a RR, I have mine insured so that if they get damaged or stolen, they get replaced. The insurance includes unlimited use of the covered firearms, as well as accessories (like optics and mags).

shaggy · February 28, 2006, 10:29 AM

I've got several RDIASs and a RLL and if you're looking for a shooter and not a safe queen, I prefer these types of registered parts over registered receivers. First and foremost, they work. There can be fitting and timing issues to resolve with different uppers and lowers, but once you get your gun set up, they work just fine. Second, while these parts can break, so can a registered receiver. The difference, however, is that because these types of conversion parts are usually made of steel and are not terribly complex parts, they are much easier to repair if something goes amiss than an aluminum receiver. With bad ammo or a poorly functioning weapon an M16 can KB and although very rare, it occasionally happens and usually damages the receiver pretty good by blowing the mag well way out of shape. Should that happen with a RLL or a RDIAS, you simply buy another semiauto host lower for about $100 and drop your registered part right in along with a new FCG - like having a brand new gun. And because you can put the registered part in any new AR15 receiver, you can feel comfortable about using the gun hard; everything (other than the sear or link) can be easily replaced; hell in a worst case scenario, you can buy a whole new AR15 to put it in for about $800. With a registered receiver, you can buy new uppers and internal parts but you're stuck with that one lower.

It is true that if youremove the registered sear/part from a receiver you also need to remove the full auto FCG and any short barreled uppers, but I see that as a non-issue. Find a receiver the registered part fits and works well in, and leave it in there. Most caliber conversions don't require a different lower, so just change uppers as necessary (which is exactly what you would have to do if it was a registered receiver). If you wanted to remove the sear from a Bushmaster lower (for example) and use a different lower like an AR47 or one of the new lowers from MGI with different magwells, you're going to have to remove the M16 FCG and any short uppers from the lower. Of course, if you had a registered receiver using a different lower wouldn't even be an option, so I don't see how having to remove the FCG and any short uppers for that purpose is any sort of drawback.

February 26, 2006, 05:56 PM	#1
NFACurious Member Join Date: December 29, 2004 Posts: 77	My First FA. Questions before i buy. Ok. First of all, whats the difference between an m16 and an ar-15 besides the FA part. Second, if i buy an m16 registered for .223/5.56 nato, and i buy an upper that changes the calibers, can i not use it because its registered for that caliber? can i re-register it for other calibers? Third. Again if i buy another upper with a barrel legnth under 16 inches (ie SBR). Do i have to do another from 4 or form 1 whichever and go through the process again?? I havent found an m-16 yet or ever aquired the forms. This is stuff i want to know before i go down the road. Thanks in advance.

February 26, 2006, 07:22 PM	#2
Samuel_Hoggson Member Join Date: February 15, 1999 Posts: 90	Nfa 1. Essentially, no difference.......FA parts excepted (including autosear, properly drilled autosear hole in lower receiver, FA hammer, selector, etc.). To get more picky, it's less of an M16 vs. AR15 issue than it is a machine gun vs. semiauto issue. For eg., many legally owned MGs of this type are stamped AR15. These are: registered AR15 conversions (eg. SP1 conversions), or the RDIASs (registered autosears) and LLs (lightning links) that can be installed (with varying degrees of modifications required) in almost any AR type lower receiver. 2. Uh, no. Most of us use 9mm uppers, .22LR uppers........pretty much whatever you want, and there is no need for additional paperwork. FS Uzis are often registered as .22/9mm/.45. Yet conversions for .40 exist and are used with apparent impunity by owners. Oftentimes 1919s are F4 listed as 30 cal, yet folks routinely get 8mm kits for these. The ATF F4 requires that you specify caliber(s), but there is no corresponding enforceable regulation......a quirk, I suppose. 3. If you own a M16 (RR, conversion, RLL, RDIAS) you can have as many shorty uppers as you wish. If you also happen to own non-NFA AR receivers you must not - repeat, must not - attach these uppers else you have an unregistered SBR. Some argue that you should not even have such a lower receiver on premises. The issue gets kicked around alot on subguns.com. My .02 is that the concept of constructive possession has been pretty well debunked. Here's a helpful site: http://www.titleii.com Sam

February 27, 2006, 06:30 PM	#5
Samuel_Hoggson Member Join Date: February 15, 1999 Posts: 90	More on 16s Again, yes, you can play the caliber game. So you want to learn about sears and links? Go to http://www.quarterbore.com. Click on the M16 link and go from there. Asmodeous' prices are pretty spot on. To go further, RR 16s break down as: 16s and 16A1s in the 12 to 14k range. 16A2s generally start at over 14 and work up to 18k. There are also some "more collectible" rare variants. Be very, very, very careful here as anyone can install any upper on any 16 lower. As for three rd burst - well, most 16 owners want nothing to do with this.......but.......yeah, you can get the parts (including 3 or 4 position selector), install, and have at it. AFAIK this can be done to any M16 receiver - whether A1 or A2. I do not know how burst parts would work with a LL or DIAS. Just not a direction I'd ever want to go. Sam

February 27, 2006, 07:43 PM	#7
NFACurious Member Join Date: December 29, 2004 Posts: 77	Thanks! Thanks for the info. I will NOT get a lightning link, they don't appear to be safe or reliable to me. LL's and RDIAS defeat the pourpose to me, iono. I want an m-16, not a converted ar-15. It just isn't the same IMO. Sorry TexasSIGMan. I do not mean to poo-poo on what you own. If you like the lightning link then awesome for you =) glad you are happy with your choice. From what i understand... The purpose of that safty sear is to give the bolt enough time to lock before the next round goes off, and if it doesn't, bad things will happen. Atleast so i'm told. Correct me if i'm wrong. Which i probably am. But the only thing that is irreplaceable on a registered m-16 is the actual lower reciever? If thats not the case, then why doesnt everybody buy RDIAS and LL's and just build new ar-15's around them as they break? Ugh just when i THINK i have everything figured out, a new variable shows up. And plus since i want to get some shorty uppers, a LL or RDIAS would make those uppers illegal to own if the LL or RDIAS is not in the gun at all times correct?

February 27, 2006, 08:09 PM	#9
NFACurious Member Join Date: December 29, 2004 Posts: 77	words outta my mouth Sorry texassigman, i was editing my post after i read yours, and then my browswer crashed. argh. I didn't mean to poo poo on your investment there texas. If it makes you happy then awesome =). My next questions were just that. What can you replace on an m-16 when it breaks? I thought only the receiver was under restriction? Makes sense if the case is all the wearable items on an m-16 are unreplaceable, then i probably will just get an rdias for shooting and eventually one day an m-16 for collection. But how is an rdias gonna affect me haveing different "shorty" uppers. As soon as that rdias or LL is taken out, then definately the rifle becomes an SBR and illegal. But since the LL and the RDIAS are themselves registered as a machine gun, then would putting a shorty upper on the gun its installed in an illegal SBR with a legal auto-sear/lightning link? argh i'm so confused! Every time i think i get everything figured out, wham, another hair pin turn to negotiate. Ok lets try this edit thing once more. I re-read Sam's post and it seems aslong as the autosear is in the gun then the shorty's are ok. My bad, let hands type before mind thinks. I think i'm gonna go read every word written on titleii.com and get back with you all later. thanks for all the info!

February 26, 2006, 11:25 PM	#3
NFACurious Member Join Date: December 29, 2004 Posts: 77	Sam, Thank you very much for the reply. It was very helpful! So i do or do not have to find one registered in multiple calibers, or if its just registered for .223/5.56, i can then just put a different caliber upper on w/o notifying the BATF? Now, what is the difference between RR, RLL, and RDIAS. I'm not familiar with these terms. Also, i'm hopeing, they made M16's with with safe semi 3rd and FA before the cut off date?? How much are these running now a days? If you can give me the answer to this before i figure it out for my self i'd be most appreciative. Again thank you for the info!

February 27, 2006, 08:31 AM	#4
Asmodeous Senior Member Join Date: October 23, 2002 Posts: 114	Transferable Colt M16s run from $12-$20,000 depending on model (onlt the very scare madels at the high priced dealers see the top end of that. You can find all the shooters you want for less than $14,000). Registered receiver M16 conversions on a variety of receivers can be found from $9-12,000. RDIAS are running $10-$12,000 Lightning Links are running $7-$9000 Have fun

February 27, 2006, 07:26 PM	#6
TexasSIGMan Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 2004 Posts: 139	I've never seen 3 round burst with a Lightning Link. Just getting the darned thing to be select fire was enough PITA for me. Problem with select fire Lightning Links is that if you remove the link you still have M16 fire control parts in your (now non-NFA) receiver, a big no no. Lots of people poo poo the RLL (registerd lightning link) but I have always had good luck with mine once the right receiver, bolt carrier and timing issues were resolved initially. And as you say, not sure why anyone would want burst anyway.

February 27, 2006, 07:50 PM	#8
TexasSIGMan Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 2004 Posts: 139	Oh they are safe and reliable, but not M16's. One advantage they have however is that you can move from lower to lower. The registered drop-in auto sear is a VERY nice way to go. You have access to pretty much any lower you want to make go full auto. Are you looking for investment or shooter? RDIAS would be my choice if I were going to start from scratch (for a shooter). If you're looking for collectibility then sure, the M16 is great, but if you wear something out well..... it gets interesting. Something to consider anyway. Don't move fast or make rash decisions with this stuff, it can cost you a fortune.

February 27, 2006, 08:55 PM	#10
TexasSIGMan Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 2004 Posts: 139	No no, I understand. I bought my Lightning Link for $350 a long time ago, it was all I could afford and it's run fine. I was just saying go slow regardless of what you do, wouldn't want to get bit with this much money on the line As for the parts you are correct. If you take out the RLL or RDIAS, the gun no longer can be SBR as well. You can still own the upper, just not have it attached to any lowers. Used to be a fear of "constructive intent" but the Thompson Contender case pretty much settled that. I have an AR also registered as an SBR since I don't want to fool with all of it, but you are right in your understanding. It can get confusing. The next question is would you really move it around that much? Hard to tell. If you're into multiple calibers you very well might. The receiver itself is the important part with a RR M16 (or conversion, there were some Ar's drilled to be the same as an M16). Every part in there you can replace or have worked on except the receiver itself. Some of the sear pin holes wallow out and get sloppy, hard to fix. Rare but it happens. As for repairs I've heard of people having receivers re-welded but I don't know what success rate there is for that. I suppose you could break an RDIAS too, dunno much about those. With my RLL you break or bend the paddle end pretty regularly, but that's not the piece with the serial number so it's easily replaced. Lots of cash laying out there!

February 27, 2006, 10:50 PM	#11
Asmodeous Senior Member Join Date: October 23, 2002 Posts: 114	I have a half dozen AR receivers that are registered in PA as pistols, as a little extra insurance for all the short barrelled uppers I have floating around when they are not on my M16s. I'm also in the process of transferring two SBR receivers, so I can make use of some of the uppers when not on the 16's (a 14.5" pistol is a little cumbrous). As far as worrying about breaking a RR, I have mine insured so that if they get damaged or stolen, they get replaced. The insurance includes unlimited use of the covered firearms, as well as accessories (like optics and mags).

February 28, 2006, 10:29 AM	#12
shaggy Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2004 Posts: 1,519	I've got several RDIASs and a RLL and if you're looking for a shooter and not a safe queen, I prefer these types of registered parts over registered receivers. First and foremost, they work. There can be fitting and timing issues to resolve with different uppers and lowers, but once you get your gun set up, they work just fine. Second, while these parts can break, so can a registered receiver. The difference, however, is that because these types of conversion parts are usually made of steel and are not terribly complex parts, they are much easier to repair if something goes amiss than an aluminum receiver. With bad ammo or a poorly functioning weapon an M16 can KB and although very rare, it occasionally happens and usually damages the receiver pretty good by blowing the mag well way out of shape. Should that happen with a RLL or a RDIAS, you simply buy another semiauto host lower for about $100 and drop your registered part right in along with a new FCG - like having a brand new gun. And because you can put the registered part in any new AR15 receiver, you can feel comfortable about using the gun hard; everything (other than the sear or link) can be easily replaced; hell in a worst case scenario, you can buy a whole new AR15 to put it in for about $800. With a registered receiver, you can buy new uppers and internal parts but you're stuck with that one lower. It is true that if youremove the registered sear/part from a receiver you also need to remove the full auto FCG and any short barreled uppers, but I see that as a non-issue. Find a receiver the registered part fits and works well in, and leave it in there. Most caliber conversions don't require a different lower, so just change uppers as necessary (which is exactly what you would have to do if it was a registered receiver). If you wanted to remove the sear from a Bushmaster lower (for example) and use a different lower like an AR47 or one of the new lowers from MGI with different magwells, you're going to have to remove the M16 FCG and any short uppers from the lower. Of course, if you had a registered receiver using a different lower wouldn't even be an option, so I don't see how having to remove the FCG and any short uppers for that purpose is any sort of drawback.