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Old September 26, 2017, 12:08 AM   #1
Metal god
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Cleaning new rifle with 100rds down the pipe ???

So instead of doing a barrel break-in on my Ruger PR ( 308 ) I went ahead and shot about 100rds though it over three different range trips with the last one shooting about 60rds .

I figured it should be pretty dirty so I cleaned it last night . First with Hoppe's real good then a bunch of dry patches . After that I started running some shooters choice copper remover . First with a plastic bore brush soaked in the cleaner then let it sit a bit . Then I ran dry patches through it . Running one wet patch to every three or four dry patches . Not one patch came out green with almost all coming out pretty clean except a few streaks of brown . I kept getting those brown streaks to the end or 20+ patches until I realized it was the patch dragging across the dirty muzzle brake causing the light brown streaks . I then did a final CLP wet patch followed by several dry patches and they all came out very clean ( except for those darn streaks )

All that may sound like a lot of cleaning but really very early in the process it appeared the rifle was already clean . I just kept running patches expecting them to finally break loose some fouling but that never happened .

Anyways this rifle cleaned up faster then any other I had cleaned before . Granted most of my rifles have 1k rounds plus though they ( with many cleanings included ) but still I really expected to be running that copper cleaner for a good while . Is there something about how the RPR is made or is it just the low round count that allowed it to clean up so quickly ?

I'll add something that I did notice last night . All brushes and patches ran through the bore very smoothly . I use a one piece carbon fiber cleaning rod and I can generally feel things when cleaning a bore . This one was smooth as silk . There was something that was just effortless and even about how everything glided down the bore .
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If you have some time IMO this is worth a listen/watch but it takes a few minutes to really get going .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USg3NR76XpQ&t=3265s or a picture of Mohamed https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VwpwP_fIqY

Last edited by Metal god; September 26, 2017 at 12:18 AM.
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Old September 26, 2017, 01:32 AM   #2
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bores

Well, there are certainly rough bores that copper foul easily, and smoother bores that, as you indicated, do not and clean up easily. The high end barrel makers and custom build rifle makers dote on smooth, polished uniform bores.

Perhaps Ruger has indeed expended some additional effort and attention to the bore of the RPR line. Will be interesting to see.......
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Old September 26, 2017, 06:11 AM   #3
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Wait a week and try it again or leave the bore soaked with #9, stand it muzzle down in the corner, and wipe it after 3-4 days--then let us know what comes out.
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Old September 26, 2017, 08:48 PM   #4
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I'm in the copper equalibrium camp.
I'll use Hoppes to clean out the carbon. I don't work to take all the copper out.
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Old September 29, 2017, 08:29 AM   #5
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Copper accumulation during the first rounds down the tube is dependent largely on the quality of the barrel and the chambering.

Hand-lapped barrels and a quality chambering/throating job leaves little in the way of rough machining "marks" that scrape the copper off the jacket, and it turns into a plasma due to the heat of ignition in the throat and gets deposited down the bore on the bullet's way out. Little to no copper accumulation is the result of the above, while a cheaper, intro/production quality barrel is more likely to have those issues. As more rounds are sent, they gradually smooth out and fill these imperfections.

Krieger gives a good explantion of this on their website. As mentioned, you generally don't need/want to strip all copper out of a barrel after "break in" until it begins to lose accuracy as copper fills the minor deposits and actually helps accuracy- to a point.
When accuracy drops off, strip the copper and it will take some fouling rounds to get it back to baseline accuracy.
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Old September 29, 2017, 10:41 AM   #6
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72 years without an AR, now I have 2. Both by the same mfg. 1 20" the other 16". The 20" seems tight when cleaning, the 16" easy and smooth. I don't know about accuracy yet, too early to tell. Getting pretty good groups with some loads in the 20", only shot AE in the 16" with a red dot but I can tell it's plenty good for it's intended purpose.
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Old September 29, 2017, 09:37 PM   #7
603Country
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Some rifles copper foul faster than others, for reasons already mentioned. I am now in the camp of cleaning when necessary, which varies significantly with several of my rifles. When accuracy degrades, which means you need to shoot it enough to know when it really has degraded, I'll clean it with Shooter's Choice. That won't remove much copper. If that doesn't get me to where it want to be, I'll use Boretech Eliminator. That will get the copper.
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Old September 30, 2017, 12:44 AM   #8
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Quote:
I'm in the copper equilibrium camp
I was in that camp once and got that idea from the Sniper 101 video series on youtube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwG-...BZi0vDCIcEPxUn

I got to 500+ rounds fired through the rifle and accuracy was still fine as far as I could tell . How ever I started noticing my bolt was having a little resistance when closing and I was getting marks on the bullets if extracted with out firing .



When I started this load I was .020 off the lands with a clean bore . After 500+ rounds there was enough fouling in the free bore and leade to cause my bullet to get marked as they were chambered . I was still shooting sub moa all day but the build up bothered me so I cleaned the rifle .

It took three days or maybe 3 or 4 hours of patch after patch after brush after brush after patch etc to clean the bore to a point I was no longer getting brown or green patches out of it . That same COAL was now .030 off the lands . It was at that point I decided the time and effort it took to clean that rifle was not worth it to wait that long . I don't have a specific number but on my accurate bolt guns I don't go more then 200rds before cleaning and in that round count . They will get at least one or two bore snakes drug through them . AR's I really don't care but generally 500 rounds is max before cleaning except for my NM service rifle . That one is around 100 or so . Any of my other firearms don't get shot enough to actually count the rounds and get clean every 6 months to a year regardless of the round count . Sometimes that's just a wet patch followed by a few dry ones and wipe down but everything gets some kind of attention at least once a year .

The reason I cleaned the new rifle was for just that reason . It was new and figured based on my previous experience I did not want to over foul it from new . Turns out That was not happening and at least I know that now .
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If you have some time IMO this is worth a listen/watch but it takes a few minutes to really get going .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USg3NR76XpQ&t=3265s or a picture of Mohamed https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VwpwP_fIqY

Last edited by Metal god; October 3, 2017 at 01:30 AM.
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Old September 30, 2017, 09:29 AM   #9
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Quote:
That same COAL was now .030 off the lands
This is with the RPR? 500 rounds seems awfully light to cause ten-thousandths throat erosion. How hot are your handloads?

If the mag allows, you can just seat your bullets out ten thou further to maintain the same jump, but chasing the lands has it's obvious limitations.
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Old September 30, 2017, 11:41 AM   #10
Metal god
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No the RPR only has 100rnds . The 500+ with out cleaning rifle was a Savage model 10 in 308 . Last i check i had .060 of throat erosion in 3500 rounds through that rifle .

I should add and or emphasize the + in 500+ . The cleaning issue was 500+ rounds but the round count that caused the .010 throat erosion could have been as many as 7 or 8 hundred . It might not have been that many either but it could have been . Although I kept notes back then they are not as detailed and date friendly as my notes are nowadays . I feel my time lines and round counts are generally accurate but could be off a tad .
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Tolerate- allow the existence, occurrence, or practice of something that one does not necessarily like or agree with , without interference.
If you have some time IMO this is worth a listen/watch but it takes a few minutes to really get going .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USg3NR76XpQ&t=3265s or a picture of Mohamed https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VwpwP_fIqY

Last edited by Metal god; October 3, 2017 at 01:26 AM.
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Old October 1, 2017, 09:25 AM   #11
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What kind of rifling? The only one I have that cleans that easily is a polygonal old hammer forged barrel. They are becoming more common on production guns.
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Old October 1, 2017, 12:01 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruger website
Cold hammer-forged 4140 chrome-moly steel barrel with 5R Rifling at minimum bore and groove dimensions, minimum headspace and centralized chamber.
One thing in common with yours is cold hammer forged .
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Tolerate- allow the existence, occurrence, or practice of something that one does not necessarily like or agree with , without interference.
If you have some time IMO this is worth a listen/watch but it takes a few minutes to really get going .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USg3NR76XpQ&t=3265s or a picture of Mohamed https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VwpwP_fIqY
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Old October 1, 2017, 06:28 PM   #13
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That is it. Enjoy the future
Why it took so long to go from heavy MGs to production rifles is beyond my comprehension given production at scale is cheaper, but I think you will see more and more.
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Old October 1, 2017, 09:24 PM   #14
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I have a Shilen Select Match on my F-open rifle. It is hand lapped. I have a chrome lined CHF barrel on my Ruger SR 762 AR-10.

Both of these barrels are spotlessly clean after a couple wet patches of Hops 9, a couple nylon brush strokes, and a dry patch. I gave up trying Montana extreme copper killer because I never have had a single blue patch come out .

I clean the AR-10 every 300-500 rounds. And the F-open rifle after each match, then I send 3 foulers down the tube the day before the match

Bye the way, in 791 rounds, that .300wm Shilen barrel has only eroded about 0.013". For a .300wm that is pretty good. Especially since I'm pushing a 225 gr bullet about 2950
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Old October 2, 2017, 09:37 PM   #15
johnwilliamson062
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The select match is button rifled, correct? Sort of the inside out version of CHF.
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Old October 2, 2017, 11:59 PM   #16
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Yes Shilen button rifles their barrels. But they air gauge it to within 1/10,000 of an inch to varify rifling depth consistency. And also hand lapped.

There are advantages and disadvantages to each method of rifling which are well documented. Shilen makes a fine barrel.
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Old October 7, 2017, 06:34 PM   #17
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Quote:
When I started this load I was .020 off the lands with a clean bore . After 500+ rounds there was enough fouling in the free bore and leade to cause my bullet to get marked as they were chambered . I was still shooting sub moa all day but the build up bothered me so I cleaned the rifle .

It took three days or maybe 3 or 4 hours of patch after patch after brush after brush after patch etc to clean the bore to a point I was no longer getting brown or green patches out of it . That same COAL was now .030 off the lands . It was at that point I decided the time and effort it took to clean that rifle was not worth it to wait that long . I don't have a specific number but on my accurate bolt guns I don't go more then 200rds before cleaning and in that round count
I discussed a situation similar with Frank of Compass Lake Engineering. He has a bore scope for one thing and makes accurate AR's. His customers want accuracy for as long as possible and many are good enough shots that they know when it is them, the ammunition, or the gun.

Frank said at some point the amount of stuff impacted into the throat can't be removed by chemical cleaners. They have to be removed mechanically, specifically he recommended JB Bore paste. He had barrels which shot well, went south, and after cleaning with JB, shot well again. I don't know the periodicity of cleaning with JB. It is an abrasive, I don't like abrasives, but if you start noticing your accuracy deteriorating, give it a try. On a couple of high round count barrels, I noticed the zero "settling" after a JB treatment.
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