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Old January 24, 2006, 12:29 PM   #26
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Proximity negates skill. If a bad guy targets you specifically, he's going to be so close (like in an elevator) that marksmanship is a lesser concern than tactics (and no, I'm not saying marksmanship isn't important). Can you recognize the threat before if gets that close? If it is that close, can you deal with it? Tight, slowly fired groups at 25 yards won't help much in that situation.

Knowing how to punch is only one component of a fist fight. Knowing how to shoot is only one component of a gun fight.
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Old January 24, 2006, 12:35 PM   #27
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The bad guy is the best shot on earth, he reads shooting journals in the bathroom, and practices point shooting coins at 25 yards in the dark.

He does 800 pushups and situps a day, and can run 2 miles in 5 minutes. His idea of a vacation is attending Ranger or SEAL training.

He is armed with the very best equipment, not that he needs it. He is skilled in several martial arts, and has extensive experience with violence. He does not hesitate, he performs.

He is not recognizable, he is ordinary. He makes time in his training for fitting in, and being dismissed by his victims. He has an average, well kept wardrobe and hairstyle. He makes small-talk on elevators. He does not threaten, he does not assault. He always gets the jump on his victims before they know whats coming.

Train for him.... Than you will be ready.
isnt that the guy from american psycho?

remember the DC sniper he was a BG, and a pretty good shot too.
not really, he wasnt really much of a sniper, the media just labeled him as one. didnt really do as much damage as he could have either (thank god). most of his victims were just wounded, as i recall
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Old January 24, 2006, 04:26 PM   #28
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He doesn't have to be good enough to kill you, only lucky enough to hit you

That said, don't train to some dreamt-up specs of an imaginary BG....train to push your limits and develop your skills.
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"Sabah al khair -- ismee Dave, ahnee al Shayṭān"
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Old January 24, 2006, 06:59 PM   #29
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Bad Guys........good Shots

My career has led me to the firing range more frequently than most. I am on the range at least two or three times a week. I instruct and train law enforcement officers both veterans and rookies. The sad thing that I see is that most of them only shoot once or twice a year during a departmental required requalification round. Now I am sure that a lot of the bad guys are shooting much more than that. As most of you will testify when it comes to shooting, practice makes perfect. How many times have I had the priviledge (yeah right) to have a veteran street officer on the range and have to give him basic pointers on shooting? To me that is so sad. I realize this forum is made up of every God fearing, gun toting, red blooded American that has the guts to stand up for our second amendment. But take a second and ask yourself, how many times do I actually go to the range and work on just basic shooting principles. Once maybe twice a month? A couple times a week? Gee maybe I shoud start a thread with this question. The more often you shoot the more instinctive it becomes. Instinct works well in most situations of survival. I also have to opportunity to see the hardest criminals in society once they are imprisioned. I can truthfully say that most of them are quite stupid, timid and scared. I can't see them being any different on the street when they were committing their crimes. Except for the fact that all of their fortitude and feeling of formidability was due to the neatly stacked rounds in the magazine of whatever gun they had just stolen from one of us. So think about the bad guy who is armed. Remember he is also scared and stupid. That is a bad combination against the untrained civilian.
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Old January 24, 2006, 07:05 PM   #30
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From reading reports in the news, it seems like the bad guys are not well trained. Their shooting is slightly worse than that of trained LEOs. At least they dont festoon themselves in 'tactical gear' like SOME folks do.
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Old January 24, 2006, 07:22 PM   #31
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There is no difference in the trauma between a well aimed shot and a lucky shot.

I'd prefer to go into it with the mindset that I can't lose. Confidence is key. If you think you might lose, you will lose.

Plus one on what 281 said though. .... "Sweat now or bleed later".
Insert witty, comical, and/or significant quote here.
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Old January 24, 2006, 07:26 PM   #32
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There was some study done (maybe the above mentioned book was involved) that I was told about at a class some time ago. The study revealed that many of the deadly force bad guy interviews revealed that many of the bad guys studied disarming techniques, defensive tactics, and fired more rounds than an average officer per year.

The point is to never underestimate your opponent unless you want to lose (and probably die).
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Old January 24, 2006, 07:49 PM   #33
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Some BG's are Good, Some are Lucky, and on the worst day of your life they are Good and Lucky.

When someone is "tossing rounds" at you, do you care if they are good? At that point all that matters is how good your cover is and how well YOU react. Hopefully you can be Good, Lucky, or ---
My definition of Gun Control--- A steady grip and hitting your target.

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Old January 24, 2006, 07:55 PM   #34
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I guess it depends, a BG could be completely green and never fired his weapon ever or the BG could be someone who had military training and is a closet gun nut that could have been an IDPA champ. My worry is the luck of the draw...even a young green BG holding his "piece" sideways can get you with a lucky shot and kill you dead.
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Old January 24, 2006, 08:16 PM   #35
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Consider this:
Michael Carneal, the fourteen-year old boy who walked into a Paducah school and opened fire on a prayer group meeting that was breaking up, never moved his feet during his rampage. He never fired far to the right or left, never far up or down. He simply fired at everything that popped up on his "screen." It is not natural to fire once at each target. The normal, almost universal, response is to fire at a target until it drops and then move on to the next target. But most video games condition participants to fire at each target only once, hitting as many targets as possible, as quickly as possible in order to rack up a high score. It's awful to note that of Michael Carneal's eight shots, he had eight hits, all head and upper torso, three dead and one paralyzed. And this from a kid who, prior to stealing that gun, had never shot a real handgun in his life.

Stop Teaching Our Kids to Kill
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Old January 24, 2006, 08:16 PM   #36
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I am a crim def lawyer and...

I currently have a client charged w/ murder. I believe what a BG lacks in training he make ups for w/ the "nothing to live for" mentality.

I think a cop vs BG advantage goes to the cop if he takes his job seriously.

BG vs gun toting citizen the advantage goes to BG. IMO

BG are NOT going to hesitate and consider the consequence of pulling the trigger.

When you are NOT LEO it is VERY different toting a gun. I am NEVER at ease when I am toting a gun. When I see the posts on here by non-LEO I wonder if they REALLY could take out BG and if they do what would be the consequences. Will a district attorney review the facts and decide whether to indict?

It is a VERY complex decision to shoot BG.
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Old January 24, 2006, 10:52 PM   #37
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Most criminals that use weapons decide before the fact they are going to use it. The ranges they fire are very close. So between having already deciding to shoot and close range, their skill level need not be high.

A LEO or civilian with CCW knows they can get in big trouble if things go wrong and someone is hurt, plus they have to react to a criminials overt act. That complicates things hugely.

The typical criminal is not a good shot, they don't go to IPSC or IDPA or tactical classes. Oh, they usually know which end of the gun the bullet shoots out, and at 4 yards or less they don't have to be good anyway.

The main trouble is most good guys are at 'O' of OODA, while the criminal is at 'D' or 'A', as in Decision or Action. Winning while behind the curve is a hard way to win. That is what the color code is about. Always stay in Yellow and keep aware, least you be caught in 'Observe' while the criminal is at 'Action' of the decision making cycle.
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Old January 25, 2006, 01:05 AM   #38
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Been a long time since I've seen a reference to the OODA-loop...

Semper Fi-
David Williams

"Sabah al khair -- ismee Dave, ahnee al Shayṭān"
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Old January 25, 2006, 09:16 AM   #39
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You also have to take into account the physiological and psychological effects of people under the fight or flight effect.

Here is an bullets excerpted from a class Marines are given

Factors Involved
Combat Mind Set
Training Level
Personal Experience
Physical Conditioning
Fatigue: Mental/Physical
Sense of Duty/Honor
Recognizing/ID Threat
Proximity to Gunfight
Intensity of the Gunfight

The Presence of Fear
Fear Effects Everyone Differently:
Three Types of Fear:
Fear of Death
Fear of Killing
Fear of Failure to Perform

Stages of Fear
Basic Fear

Controlling Fear
Fear can be Contagious and Progressive
Fear cannot be conquered, but it can be controlled
Redirect Fear by turning it into Anger, Rage, Hatred and Violence.
“When flight is not an option, identifying and hating an enemy has evolutionary value for survival.”

Physical Effects
Going into the Gunfight:
Difficulty Breathing
Heart Rate Goes Up
Adrenaline Starts Pumping

“Calm Breeds Calm, Fear Breeds Fear!”


Physical Effects
When Shooting Starts:
Chemical Cocktail:
Blood diverts from extremities to large muscles.
Loss of Dexterity and fine Motor Skills

Eyes Dilate
Tunnel Vision
Auditory Exclusion
Blood Vessels in Ears dilate
Time/Space Distortion
Things Slow Down

Physical Effects
Heart Rate:
60/80 BPM is Normal
300 BPM has been recorded
200 BPM has been recorded sustained
115-145 BPM is Optimum Combat Performance
At 145 BPM Complex Motor Skills Go Down
At 175 BPM Gross Motor Skills Go Down

Physical Effects
Heart Rate of 175 BPM
Fore Brain Shuts Down and Mid Brain Takes Over
Mid Brain does only four things: Fight/Flight/Eat/Sex
Mid Brain sends signal for perseverance shooting…shoot until it works (NSR)
All senses but vision shuts down
(Touch, Taste, Smell, Hearing, 6th sense)

Physical Effects
Out of 10 Shooters expect:
9 to have auditory exclusion
2 to hear intensified sounds
8 to move on auto pilot
6 to have higher vision of clarity
1 to experiences paralysis
2 to have memory distortion
2 to experience the world moving in fast motion
4 to experience intrusive/distractive thoughts (family, loved ones)

Effects on the Shooter
Shoot Faster & Less Accurate
Will Think & Perform Tasks with less Accuracy
Experience Some or Complete Memory Loss
Experience Loss of Feeling:
Pain may or may not be felt
Altered Decision Making Process
Do things never done or been trained to do

Learn to fight out of intent and will, not out of panic and fear
Order and Simplification are the first steps towards mastery of survival
Focus on Ability, not Vulnerabilities.
Focusing on vulnerabilities will cause fear.
God truly fights on the side with the best artillery
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Old January 25, 2006, 11:09 AM   #40
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You guys who underestimate Bad guys...

More power to ya

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Old January 25, 2006, 03:04 PM   #41
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In my experience, the average criminal is a pretty lousy pistolero. As you pointed out, it takes some skill to hit a target with a handgun. To be perfectly honest, I'm much more afraid of a bad guy with an edged weapon than one with a handgun. With a knife, they don't need a lot of skill to ruin your day, all they have to do is get close.

Shotguns & rifles are a different story. Just about anyone can employ either very effectively with little practice or know how.

Don't take any of the above to mean I patrol around underestimating the dirtbags. What I do is keep tactical awareness at all times, and give myself some reactionary gap when dealing with them...
To my great mortification, my father once told me; "you care nothing but for dogs, shooting, and rat catching, you will be a disgrace to yourself and all your family"

Charles Darwin
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Old January 25, 2006, 04:57 PM   #42
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Lucky Shot

pax wrote:

He doesn't have to be good; he only has to be lucky.
I agree. A LEO was killed last year, while chasing a BG, by a 60 foot shot that entered his body under his raised arm, through an opening in his body armor.
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them". John Wayne - "The Shootist"
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Old January 25, 2006, 06:01 PM   #43
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281 makes an excellent point, you never know who the bad guy will be. I served in the Army with guys that easily had the potential to be BG's that would be very nasty to deal with. Training will tip the scales possibly in your favor but as I have said before and have heard others say the real battle is between your ears. You have to decide under what circumstances you will use your weapon before you need it, especially if you are not an LEO. The BG may have trained at a camp in Syria or Iran. He may have been trained by some western countrys Spec Ops guys gone merc . You never know.
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Old January 25, 2006, 07:00 PM   #44
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He may have been trained by some western countrys Spec Ops guys gone merc . You never know.
Remember the bank robbers in the N. Hollywood shootout. They weren't your average BG's.
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Old January 26, 2006, 10:01 AM   #45
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Very good point. I think it's reasonable to expect, given the number of Gulf War (both 1 & 2) vets with combat experience, and accepting that a certain number are bad actors or have mental problems, that there are going to be more bad guys with above average tactical and weapons skills floating around these days...
To my great mortification, my father once told me; "you care nothing but for dogs, shooting, and rat catching, you will be a disgrace to yourself and all your family"

Charles Darwin
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Old January 26, 2006, 10:26 AM   #46
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Its sad to say but I've seem some pretty shadey characters (really looked like a bunch of thugs) at some ranges I have gone to. Some Bad Guys DO PRACTICE!!! I was shooting much better than them but I consider myself an above average shot. I'm not sure where most police officers train but it must not be at the ranges I go to. Either that or they go during normal working hours so I never see them. I also think some departments have their own ranges.

Not to beat a dead horse but Quad 281 hit the nail on the head. Never underestimate your enemy and always train hard so that you will be better than them. Prepare yourself mentally so you won't hesistate at a critical moment and do what it takes to protect yourself and your loved ones. Another thing is know when to draw and when to comply. Unless you are John Wayne, you have little chance of drawing from concealment and shooting a bad guy who already has his gun trained on you.
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Old January 26, 2006, 10:30 AM   #47
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Living here in Philly I can guarantee that the bad guys are not as skilled in shooting but they play the cards in their favor to be more accurate and get hits. We have had 23 people shot this year and it's only Jan. 26th. The bad guys here get close and spray and pray. Any way you look at it, if he's using a 15 round 9mm chances are he is going to hit. For that reason I believe you can never underestimate them. All you have to do is walk down the street in some neighborhoods and you feel the eyes of the wolf looking upon you weighing pros and cons all the time.
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Old January 26, 2006, 10:46 AM   #48
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I would have to say that the average BG is comparable to the average good guy. That being said, my past experiences in the Army and in the world clearly show, that most would easily fit in the bad shot catagory.

At ranges and in the field I cannot believe just how poor some people, (who are often called good shots), actually shoot. I have hunted with state police, city police, and strike force personnel, who don't shoot that well, some are darn right horrible. Many of my fellow soldiers only shot when required to requalify and then barely could pass the requirements.

The difference between firing at targets and firing at people is more than most can imagine. When you have had an adrenaline dump to your system it causes a multitude of effects. Just look at what happens to hunters every year, it has a name...buck fever.

I admit that even I don't practice as often as I should. This all means nothing though when you are confronted by a BG weilding a gun. As we all know Mr. Murphy and his law has a good chance of intervening and when he does it usually isn't a good outcome.
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Old January 26, 2006, 11:19 AM   #49
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well the one who shot me was 3 feet away, close enough for me to see the hammer fall, how good of a shot do you need to be at that range....
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Old January 26, 2006, 08:48 PM   #50
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Glad you're still around-was luck on your side, or was he/she just a bad shot?
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