The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: General Handgun Forum

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old December 14, 2005, 12:05 AM   #1
Senior Member
Join Date: October 8, 2005
Posts: 696
"Shall issue" concealed permits, what started the trend?

I have been wondering lately on what started the "quiet revolution"
of states issuing "shall issue" concealed carry permits?

This seems to be overwhelmingly the trend now.

What was impetus for this change? Was the NRA instrumental in this change?

I think this is a good thing, just wonder what "lit the fuse"...
Mokumbear is offline  
Old December 14, 2005, 12:58 AM   #2
Tom Matiska
Senior Member
Join Date: April 12, 2000
Location: Wilkes-Barre, Pa
Posts: 1,026
PA as long as I've known was a "shall issue" state. I wouldn't characterize "shall issue" as a trend. More correct to say the state resisted the recent gun control "trend" that only some people have 2nd Amendment rights.
Tom Matiska is offline  
Old December 14, 2005, 01:32 AM   #3
Senior Member
Join Date: May 24, 2004
Posts: 3,888
Other states woke up to what some of us had been doing all along.
Majic is offline  
Old December 14, 2005, 03:11 AM   #4
Senior Member
Join Date: May 19, 2004
Location: Fairbanksan in exile to Aleutian Hell
Posts: 2,654
Florida is the state that brought all the attention to statewide pre-emption of local gun laws and "shall issue" legislation.
Florida law is the model most states used to craft their own laws and tweeked them as needed for their particular state.
As for who actually had "shall issue" laws prior to FL, I haven't a clue.
Stop Allowing Our Schools To Be Soft Targets!

East Moose. Wear Wolf.
stevelyn is offline  
Old December 14, 2005, 03:16 AM   #5
Senior Member
Join Date: May 28, 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 6,231
To keep local big headed civil servants and polticians from controling who gets permits...

the law says you will issue a permit if they have met the criteria...

end of story......
Have a nice day at the range

NRA Life Member
Eghad is offline  
Old December 14, 2005, 08:20 AM   #6
Jack Malloy
Senior Member
Join Date: February 3, 2005
Posts: 791
Florida got the ball rolling and was quickly followed by West Virginia. Media critics claimed that Fla would turn into shootout city, but it never happened. If you look at the most recent FBI UCR reports.
They show that roughly the same time that these states started passing CCW laws the crime and murder rates started decreasing.
Of course, nobody in Washington has the balls to admit that, but if you compare the stats before CCW and after in32 states, its pretty obvious.
Jack Malloy is offline  
Old December 14, 2005, 09:44 AM   #7
Senior Member
Join Date: October 3, 2001
Posts: 641
It started at the grass roots level with people like us working to get pro-gun state and local officials elected. Then we put the heat on them to do what we elected them to do.

Florida was the first state to accomplish this. Once the "blood in the streets" myth was debunked. It became harder for officials to resist, if they wanted to get elected and/or stay in office.
garrettwc is offline  
Old December 14, 2005, 09:55 AM   #8
Person of Interest
Senior Member
Join Date: March 5, 2005
Posts: 365
About 1985 one county in Florida was experiencing an unbelievable increase in the number of rapes being committed. In repsonse to the public outcry, the sheriff initiated a program where 200 women were given gun safety classes and issued carry permits. None of the women in the program were every assaulted, but the number of rapes dropped by something like 98% after the news media was all over the story. Most people think that rapists were scared off by the possibility of being shot by a victim.

This experiment prompted the Florida legislature in 1987 to enact concealed carry reform introducing the "shall issue" concept, where local LEOs had no say in whether the permit was issued. Many states had concealed carry, but many if not most were "may issue" meaning that you had to prove a need to be armed and you had to have the approval of local cops.

After the violent crime rate in Florida tumbled despite the dire predictions from the gun grabbers about "blood in the streets," other states began enacting similar laws, changing may issue into shall issue or instituting concealed carry for the first time.

Critics have been proven wrong about concealed carry in everyu instance and yet they trot out the same, tired, old, disproven lies everytime another state legislature takes up the issue. I think about 30 states are now shall issue and only 3-4 flatly deny concealed carry. The rest are descretionary (may issue).

This is great progress, but we need to get all 50 states on board with shall issue and we need nationwide reciprocity so that we can freely travel with our self-defense firearms.
Person of Interest is offline  
Old December 14, 2005, 02:15 PM   #9
Senior Member
Join Date: November 18, 2004
Posts: 1,446
Florida also had a terrible problem with tourists being assualted on the highways(rest areas), seniors being robbed and assualted in daylight, drug gangs having broad daylight shootouts etc. Once the aforementioned sherrif had given out the permits and DT miami did not turn into Tombstone, people started to look closer at the issue, and out of that came the non resident permit, the removal of the flee first clause, and several other more gun friendly statutes.

The non resident permits became a big deal as people from the north (snowbirds) heading south, were becoming afraid of traveling south, which was putting a big hurt on the winter hospitality industry in Fl. But if a non resident could get a gun permit, Then it was assumed (rightly so) that BG's would not target out of state plates because the chances that out of towner had a permit and could defend themself rose drastically. The removal of the flee first clause was important as it gave seniors a sense of impowerment by saying that no matter what if you are in imminent danger for your life or property, you had the states blessing to defend yourself and your belongings. you did not have to run away, try to leave or give up your car if carjacked, just shoot. It worked very well, I own a home in florida and my parents winter there, I am amazed at the number of older people I see at the resturants, the malls even the golf clubs who carry(ok not on the course, but they have the holster on the pants when they change in the locker room.) many just palm the pistol into the golf bag.
I do not know the numbers of permit holders, but in the greater tampa area it has to be 5% to 10 % of the population from my perspective.
guntotin_fool is offline  
Old December 14, 2005, 02:23 PM   #10
Senior Member
Join Date: April 8, 2005
Location: Utah
Posts: 2,559
What was impetus for this change?
High victim crime in Florida...

...and the visably decreased victim crime rates which immediately followed the passage of their "Right to Carry" law.

Other states followed suit because it was so obvious that it worked to reduce crime...
Pointer is offline  
Old December 14, 2005, 02:52 PM   #11
Senior Member
Join Date: May 26, 2004
Location: Western Washington
Posts: 164
WA was first...

...shall issue. Not much movement until Fla.

Hero's aren't born, they're cornered - According to Jim
PaulBk is offline  
Old December 14, 2005, 03:26 PM   #12
Join Date: September 28, 2002
Location: West Florida
Posts: 92
I've had my FL CWL since Apr 9, 2003. Things just would not seem right without it.

I had no idea how "shall issue" started, but I'm glad it did.

When you heed the call to battle, let your witness be as steel.
fiVe is offline  
Old December 14, 2005, 06:01 PM   #13
Senior Member
Join Date: December 26, 2004
Location: Florida
Posts: 478
I know Pennsylvania was a real leader in this. I got my concealed carry permit back in 1981 and all I had to do was walk into the sheriffs office and apply for it and I walked out with it 10 minutes later. I got my Florida CC permit 6 months ago primarily because it is honored in so may other states. The Florida permit took longer to get because it required proof of training, finger printing and such but it was well worth th eeffort. PA is still the same; walk in, apply, they phone in a background check, walk out with the permit.
cavediver27 is offline  
Old December 14, 2005, 07:22 PM   #14
Senior Member
Join Date: May 8, 2005
Location: St. louis
Posts: 249
Shall issue means that one or two anti's with a little political pull can't infringe on you're right to carry. Look at Missouri last year, where St. Louis City and St. Louis County went to court to try to avoid issuing permits. They did lose eventually, but lost a lot of revenue as many of us went out of state for permits because we coudn't get them at home. Funny enough I haven't seen the streets full of blood and gunfights on the corners they said they were protecting us from though!
axslingerW is offline  
Old December 14, 2005, 08:11 PM   #15
Senior Member
Join Date: May 4, 2001
Posts: 7,113
Florida really started it, and it started because of two things:
The high Florida crime rate caused by the liberal courts, especially the Florida Supreme court, refusing to actually lock criminals up, and KEEP them locked up.

And, the Florida Concealed gun laws.

When crime started getting out of hand, a lot of people decided to take advantage of the Florida provision in State law that allowed the issuing of concealed guns permits.

However, what people soon learned was, there really WAS no true conceal carry in Florida.

In most of Florida the law was administered like most concealed laws were then: A concealed permit was a political party favor for "special" people.

If you were very wealthy, a big contributor to political campaigns, were politically active in the Democratic party, or had some other kind of "pull", you could get a permit.

If you were just some slob in off the street, "Forget it".

In some counties, reasonable officials handed out permits to most anybody, and in other counties only those "Special People" got them.

People soon realized this fact, and were angry that the law allowed the issue of permits based on nothing but some politicians discretion, and started a grass roots movement to force the issue of permits to any honest citizen that wanted one.

In other words, TRUE Democracy.

People saw that there was a lot of abuse in the "may issue" system, and that there was no real standard in effect.

The Left, the Press (but I repeat myself) and the Trendy Sort that don't like the Great Unwashed daring to make demands of their betters were, of course very against it.

After a lot of political and legal maneuvering, the citizens finally got to decide at the poll's.

In spite of blaring headlines that Florida was going to turn into "Dodge City in Dade" and that little fender-bender accidents would turn into bloody shootouts on the street, the voters were too smart to fall for it.

Since then, EVERY state that's passed Right To Carry laws has had the exact same charges, word for word used, mostly without effect.

People at heart don't like the idea of "Special People" getting little gifts denied to everyone else, and this sort of thing never goes over too well as soon as people find out about it.
Dfariswheel is offline  
Old December 14, 2005, 09:21 PM   #16
Senior Member
Join Date: October 8, 2005
Posts: 696
Here is a cool site...

Being a sucker for maps, I like this site that shows the progression of
"shall issue" permits among the states over the years...

There is also a lot of good info if you go onto Yahoo and search for
"shall issue".

It's odd how this issue has not gotten much attention in the mainstream media.

More reciprocity would certainly be a good thing.
Although, to be honest, I was surprised how much reciprocity there is considering the patchwork way laws tend to be.
Mokumbear is offline  
Old December 14, 2005, 10:07 PM   #17
Senior Member
Join Date: April 4, 2005
Posts: 242
"Shall issue" in a nutshell: Instead of a person having to show why they want to carry, the state is required to show why they shouldn't, thus, the state "shall issue" a permit unless there is tangible, legal reason why they shouldn't. Runs along the lines of "innocent until proven guilty". This is the reverse of "may issue", as in the state "may issue" a permit if the person can show why they should be allowed a permit (guilty until proven innocent).
"It's not the arrow, it's the indian!"
J.D.B. is offline  
Old December 14, 2005, 10:14 PM   #18
Thomas Nowicki
Join Date: January 23, 2000
Location: Indiana
Posts: 87
Indiana has had shall-issue since the '30s I believe.
Thomas Nowicki is offline  
Old December 14, 2005, 10:54 PM   #19
Senior Member
Join Date: September 16, 2005
Posts: 104
in NY it depends on which judge signs the permits and basically... if he is pro or anti gun. It varies.
darkvibe is offline  
Old December 14, 2005, 11:46 PM   #20
Captain Clay
Junior Member
Join Date: November 20, 2005
Posts: 14
I live in FL and have my CWP. I was just wondering what governers (besides Jeb) were pro 2nd Ammendment in the past? Who was in offecie when we became officaially a "shall issue" state and what Governers in the past here supported our right to carry. Anyway, just curious.
Captain Clay is offline  
Old December 15, 2005, 10:09 PM   #21
Senior Member
Join Date: June 25, 2005
Location: Marysville, WA
Posts: 670
I lived and carried with permit in Washington for 30 years before moving for 10 years to Colorado. Both states were studies in contrasts. Washington had a "shall issue" statute on the books for most of those years even though it wasn't worded precisely as such. Bottom line was you got a permit if you were not a convicted felon or a mental case (as determined by the state). When I moved to Colorado, it was a patchwork of regulations. Basicly the CLEO where you lived had the say as to whether you got a permit. In some counties you had to marry his "unfortunate" daughter or the like in order to get a permit. Being a contributor to his campaign substituted in some cases for matrimony (or in case some other fool had married his last daughter). Another variation was to go out to some small county on the eastern plains and apply for a permit. The smaller county sheriff's offices made a fair amount of revenue from the permit fees.

About 2003, the rules changed and Colorado too became a "shall issue" state. They just forgot the "preemption of local laws" clause. Still a lot of laws like Denver's prohibiting transport of firearms in cars unless you are "passing through".

I moved back to Washington and the law here is real simple. Shall Issue, and use of Deadly Force is same as Law Officers. Not just self defense but prevention violent crime against person is justified.
My definition of Gun Control--- A steady grip and hitting your target.

"In God we trust, all others are suspects."

"If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying, either I won't need any more, or more won't be of any help".

swmike is offline  

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:46 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent:
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.08965 seconds with 7 queries