The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old November 4, 2005, 03:08 PM   #1
FirearmFan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 25, 2005
Location: Philly
Posts: 270
Home defense question, Shooting through doors???

Hi Everyone, and thanks for all your info from my previous posts.....

I was thinking the other night about home defense and wanted to know how to handle this situation.

If I have barricaded myself and my family in the bedroom, because I think burglars are in the house and called the police, is it justifiable to shoot through the door if...

1) They are trying to break into the bedroom and are almost in

2) They have put a hole in the door and are waving a gun around demanding we open it

3) They have put a hole in the door and are trying to reach the handle

To be honest I don't know what I would do. Instinct tells me to wait until the door is open for legal reasons but, in such a small space things could get ugly. All opinions and thoughts welcome.

Thanks.

opps, just realized I put this in the wrong thread...oh nuts!
FirearmFan is offline  
Old November 4, 2005, 03:15 PM   #2
NB4ZOT
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 7, 2005
Location: Houston
Posts: 103
Quote:
3) They have put a hole in the door and are trying to reach the handle

http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P...2.LZZZZZZZ.jpg
NB4ZOT is offline  
Old November 4, 2005, 03:41 PM   #3
Jkwas
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 20, 2005
Location: Mouth of the Rat, Florida
Posts: 1,778
If the threat is on the other side of the door, your lives are not in danger. IF they come in and threaten you, then it's another story
__________________
I grew up in New Jersey, but later moved to Florida and made a complete recovery.
Keltec: The BIC lighter of handguns
http://jkwasblog.blogspot.com/
Jkwas is offline  
Old November 4, 2005, 03:48 PM   #4
Jericho9mm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 10, 2005
Location: Sactown
Posts: 227
if they are on the other side of the door and you tell them to not enter and you will shoot if they do then i think you are justified in shooting. but if you just hear them walking around out side the door or you warn them not to come in and they don't, then you probably can't be justified because even though they entered your house and maybe took some of your stuff if they leave you alone or dont try to initiate violent contact then you probably don't have grounds to use lethal force.
if someone is hacking a hole in the door or trying to bust it down and trying to get you or your family and have said they are coming for you (and not just your stuff) after a verbal warning then you might be justified in pulling the trigger.
__________________
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."
Jericho9mm is offline  
Old November 4, 2005, 03:50 PM   #5
XavierBreath
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 2002
Location: North Louisiana
Posts: 2,800
1) They are trying to break into the bedroom and are almost in........
No. Identify your target. Prepare to shoot, but hold your fire until the target is identified.

2) They have put a hole in the door and are waving a gun around demanding we open it
Perhaps. If you can see a face through the hole, shoot it. Your target was identified. If they are waving a gun through an arm sized hole, bash the arm with a bat, a TV, or your shotgun butt, and take the damned gun.


3) They have put a hole in the door and are trying to reach the handle.
Hold your fire as in scenerio #1.

It is imperative that you identify your target. You are responsible for your shots fired. Make them accurate, effective, and certain. You cannot do that with your target behind a door.
__________________
Xavier's Blog
XavierBreath is offline  
Old November 4, 2005, 03:51 PM   #6
springmom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 26, 2005
Location: Houston area
Posts: 1,823
it depends on your STATE LAW

In Texas you are justified in shooting. If they're in your house you are in danger. I have no idea about Pennsylvania. If someone tells you yes you can shoot, or no you can't, unless they are from your state they are unlikely to know the answer.

Check with your concealed handgun instructor or local law enforcement on this one. Or go to www.packing.org and look up the law for your state.

Springmom
__________________
I will not be a victim

home on the web:
www.panagia-icons.net (my webpage)
www.nousfromspring.blogspot.com (Orthodoxy)

"I couldn't hear you. Stop firing the gun while you're talking!" Frank Drebin, The Naked Gun
springmom is offline  
Old November 4, 2005, 03:53 PM   #7
sendec
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 18, 2005
Posts: 517
1: No
2: Possibly
3: No

You have to reasonably believe that you are at risk of death or serious physical injury, and that threat is immediate. The presence of a locked door reduces the immediacy of the threat. Shooting thru a door also implies a lack of target identification, you may hit the wrong bad guy or girl, more likely you'll hit nothing and just waste ammo and punish your eardrums for nothing.

The second scenario would most likely justify the use of deadly force as the presence of their weapon and intent demonstrated by pointing it in your direction would make it easy to articulate a risk of death or serious physical injury.
sendec is offline  
Old November 4, 2005, 03:53 PM   #8
tjhands
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 20, 2005
Posts: 1,718
In the first scenario, you'd wait until they got in, then make sure it's not someone you know (drunk or something).
In the second scenario, gimme a break. I can't believe someone above said that they'd wait until the door opened before shooting. There'd be no hesitation at that point - you kill the guy.
In the third scenario, again, wait until the door has opened and you have ID'd the guy as someone there to do you harm (which is obviously the likely conclusion, but you should confirm it).
__________________
"If the sole purpose of handguns is to kill people, then mine are all defective." - Uncle Ted Nugent
tjhands is offline  
Old November 4, 2005, 03:55 PM   #9
tjhands
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 20, 2005
Posts: 1,718
Wow, within 3 minutes you got 3 answers that are virtually identical. That's gotta say SOMEthing.
__________________
"If the sole purpose of handguns is to kill people, then mine are all defective." - Uncle Ted Nugent
tjhands is offline  
Old November 4, 2005, 04:36 PM   #10
XavierBreath
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 2002
Location: North Louisiana
Posts: 2,800
Identify the Target!

Before we go any farther, let me mention that every year a gun owner or two kills a family member because they decide to shoot through a door at noises rather than properly identifying their target. That is the basis of my first post (#5 above).

Even if it's legal, even if you feel threatened, you should identify your target before pulling the trigger. This is back to the four rules folks. If your target is behind a door, it's not an imminent threat yet. Let them enter, identify them and then do what is necessary to stop the threat.

The life you save by holding your fire until you ID the threat may be your spouse, your child, your best friend, or Law Enforcement. I will never forget talking to a 47 year old man, an honorable man, who put a .357 magnum round through his 18 year old daughter's heart. He shot through a door at noises in the night that he thought were threatening. It was declared an accident. He never accepted that, and neither do I. It was negligence that took his daughter's life. Whether the law holds you responsible for your bullets path or not, you will hold yourself responsible if you are an adult. Identify your target and be sure you want to destroy it.
__________________
Xavier's Blog
XavierBreath is offline  
Old November 4, 2005, 04:54 PM   #11
CraigJS
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 31, 2005
Posts: 372
I also am not sure that I'd tell them I'm armed.. warn them to stay out, that you've called the police. If they then enter.. SAY HELLO TO MY LITTLE FRIEND!!
CraigJS is offline  
Old November 4, 2005, 05:02 PM   #12
tuckerdog1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 20, 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 280
In Texas, they don't even need to be inside your house. If somebody is peeping through your window ( at night ), the law assumes they are there to do no good. I do not recommend it, but you're good to shoot them right through the glass.
As to the situation(s) above, depends on your own circumstances. Do you have family that could be on the other side of the door? If you do, I'd agree completely about I.D. your target. Myself, it's just me & my wife. If we're both in the bedroom, whoever is on the other side of the door isn't supposed to be there. They MIGHT, (depending on what they are doing over there..violently trying to break the door down vs jiggling the knob ) get 1 verbal warning that I have a gun, am about to use it, & they are to I.D. themselves and /or leave. Most interior doors are light hollow nothings. They could just start the shooting from over there. I won't give them much, if any opportunity to take the 1st shot through the door from their side, and possibly get a lucky shot & cripple or kill my wife or myself. All my friends know my position on guns & self defense. None of them would ever do something so stupid as to come into our house unannounced.

Tuckerdog1
__________________
Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the
black flag, and begin slitting throats. - Henry Louis Mencken
tuckerdog1 is offline  
Old November 4, 2005, 05:03 PM   #13
MostToysWins
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 10, 2005
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 274
+1 Springmom

Check your local laws.

Here in Texas we have what is called the "King of the castle" law.

Anyone steps into my house that I don't know, if I feel threatened in any way, I can shoot 'em dead. Doesn't matter if they have a 2X4 or a machine gun.

There is a "joke" down here that if you shoot a bad guy outside your house in Texas, make sure you drag him inside before the police get there.
__________________
Sig P226 9mm : CZ 75B Compact : Glock G26 : CZ 2075 RAMI 9mm : S&W Model 60 .38 : Ruger GP-100 6" : Beretta .22 Minx

MostToysWins is offline  
Old November 4, 2005, 05:29 PM   #14
XavierBreath
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 2002
Location: North Louisiana
Posts: 2,800
Quote:
Anyone steps into my house that I don't know, if I feel threatened in any way, I can shoot 'em dead. Doesn't matter if they have a 2X4 or a machine gun.
How about a cop with a badge and a gun?
How about a fireman an axe and a fire hose?
How about a delivery man with a package from Fed Ex?
How about a meter reader with a clipboard?
How about a lost halloween party seeker from Japan?

Just because the law says you CAN does not mean you SHOULD.

Be careful joking about dragging dead bodies around. It may come back to haunt you.
__________________
Xavier's Blog
XavierBreath is offline  
Old November 4, 2005, 05:36 PM   #15
tjhands
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 20, 2005
Posts: 1,718
Xavier, I agree with your 4:26PM post with this one caveat: scenario number 2 in the original question.
If I'm visualizing this correctly, a person has punched a hold through your door and is sticking a gun through it while making the demand to open the door for him. In my opinion, this action precludes any thought or consideration on my (the homeowner's) part. To wait for him to finally enter the house, more pissed off than he already is, is absolute folly and puts your and your family's lives in grave danger.
__________________
"If the sole purpose of handguns is to kill people, then mine are all defective." - Uncle Ted Nugent
tjhands is offline  
Old November 4, 2005, 05:37 PM   #16
tjhands
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 20, 2005
Posts: 1,718
Oops, Zave, it was your 4:36 post.
__________________
"If the sole purpose of handguns is to kill people, then mine are all defective." - Uncle Ted Nugent
tjhands is offline  
Old November 4, 2005, 05:40 PM   #17
XavierBreath
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 2002
Location: North Louisiana
Posts: 2,800
Refer to my 3:50 post.......
Quote:
2) They have put a hole in the door and are waving a gun around demanding we open it
Perhaps. If you can see a face through the hole, shoot it. Your target was identified. If they are waving a gun through an arm sized hole, bash the arm with a bat, a TV, or your shotgun butt, and take the damned gun.


My reasoning here is some kids are just stupid. I don't think my 21 year old son would ever be this stupid, but he has done some pretty dumb things in his life (as have I) and I would rather risk my life than his. Yes, he yells to let me know he is coming in before he does, so I can identify him, but he also dropped out of pre-med to pursue mathematics.

The perp can't aim the gun under these conditions, and they can't see your movements, so I say take the gun from them. Hell, break their arm with your shotgun butt!

I will add that this line of thinking is why I prefer a shotgun with 00Buck to a 9mm handgun, or even a .45ACP for home defense. I want devastatingly effective firepower once that target is IDed, because I will ID it and might not have much time left.
__________________
Xavier's Blog
XavierBreath is offline  
Old November 4, 2005, 06:17 PM   #18
elmrich
Member
 
Join Date: April 28, 2002
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 63
If I were 100% sure it was a BG on the other side of the door and I knew all of my family was in the bedroom with me I don't think I would hesitate to shoot through the door. Especially If they were armed.
elmrich is offline  
Old November 4, 2005, 06:18 PM   #19
tjhands
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 20, 2005
Posts: 1,718
Zave, I dig what you are saying, but come on. If someone is out of their skull enough to bash your door in and wave a gun at the occupants inside, I'm not going to try to kick his arm and risk getting shot by him in the process. Insane people are by definition unpredictable and you don't know when or if he's gonna start shooting aimlessly. Aimless bullets can sometimes find skin and that'd be a risk I wouldn't take. Bottom line for me is that his gun waving around is ID enough for me.

BTW, I'm with you on the primary home defense gun: mine's a Mossberg 500 with 00buck.
__________________
"If the sole purpose of handguns is to kill people, then mine are all defective." - Uncle Ted Nugent
tjhands is offline  
Old November 4, 2005, 06:19 PM   #20
tuckerdog1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 20, 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 280
Enter at your own peril

FedEx, meter readers & lost tourists have no business inside your house. LEOs & firemen "maybe". They are trained professionals & should know to clearly I.D. themselves. And even then, approach with extreme caution. You're inside MY house, uninvited. A lot of oddball reasons could cause that to happen ( actually did to my parents many years ago ). But if you're a genuine LEO, caution caution caution my friend. A lot of home invasions are pulled off by scum dressed as police. I will NOT risk my family by being TOOOO cautious. You're the one in MY house. If you're a genuine good guy, it befalls YOU to be the cautious one & put me at ease right away.

Tuckerdog1
__________________
Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the
black flag, and begin slitting throats. - Henry Louis Mencken
tuckerdog1 is offline  
Old November 4, 2005, 07:08 PM   #21
springmom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 26, 2005
Location: Houston area
Posts: 1,823
+1 Tuckerdog.

We have a system in our house (before bedtime). First of all, the door is locked, most of the time. However, 17 year old son, going in and out with friends, does not always do this. Hence the system:

Front door opens. I am in the bedroom or the kitchen or the living room (rooms where I can't visually identify the person entering myself). I call out "HELLO!" I'd better hear Hello, or Hi there, in a voice I know, or else the gun comes out. ONce or twice hubster or son have delayed responding. I call the second time, but the gun is out of my waistband. They answer. Gun is put away. Other family members do the same.

After I'm asleep, I have to rely on the alarm system and the dogs. No police officer is going to be coming in uninvited in the middle of the night unless they are doing a drug bust in the wrong house (and this HAS HAPPENED to people before.) I don't spend a whole lot of time worrying about that, though.

It's my house. Nobody with hostile intent will get past the hallway, one way or another.

Springmom
__________________
I will not be a victim

home on the web:
www.panagia-icons.net (my webpage)
www.nousfromspring.blogspot.com (Orthodoxy)

"I couldn't hear you. Stop firing the gun while you're talking!" Frank Drebin, The Naked Gun
springmom is offline  
Old November 4, 2005, 07:15 PM   #22
MostToysWins
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 10, 2005
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 274
+1 Tucker

Xavier, I lurked on this site for a long time and I respect your opinions, so no disrespect intended...

But come on man...why in the hell would a meter reader, fed ex guy or someone that is at the wrong house just walk right in? Who does that? People don't do that here in Texas where I live I assure you, and for good reason (see "King of the castle" law)

Even if it is the "police" or "fire department", there better be a DAMN good reason why they are in my house without my invitation and they BETTER ID themselves before snoopin' around.

I actually caught someone in my garage once at night trying to steal stuff (stupidly left the door open).

I said 3 things...

1. I am armed
2. The police have been called
3. If you don't leave right now or identfy yourself, I will assume you are armed and have no problems using my gun.

The last thing I saw was a flash out my garage door.

Tucker is right, you can NEVER be too careful. BG's think of very original ways to commit their crimes.
__________________
Sig P226 9mm : CZ 75B Compact : Glock G26 : CZ 2075 RAMI 9mm : S&W Model 60 .38 : Ruger GP-100 6" : Beretta .22 Minx

MostToysWins is offline  
Old November 4, 2005, 07:19 PM   #23
NB4ZOT
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 7, 2005
Location: Houston
Posts: 103
If you know somebody's behind your door who is there to do you harm, do the obvious.

http://images.art.com/images/-/Scarf...C10119945.jpeg
NB4ZOT is offline  
Old November 4, 2005, 07:23 PM   #24
springmom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 26, 2005
Location: Houston area
Posts: 1,823
a flash?

From a gun or from the guy running like mad?

However, all this calls to mind an experience in high school (about a million years ago) I was in a drum and bugle corps and every year, the senior girls would arrange with the parents of the junior girls to leave their front doors open (this was back when you could actually do that) or be awake and the seniors would "kidnap" the juniors for a middle of the night welcome-to-the-Lassies party. I and another girl "shared" our little sister Lassie, so together we went to pick her up. We went into the house. No lights on. Hm, they said they would leave on a light. We went into EVERY SINGLE BEDROOM before we realized WE WERE IN THE WRONG HOUSE.

We beat it out of there FAST, and realized we'd missed by a block. Went and picked up Andrea and took her to the party, thanking God that we were still alive!

Obviously, if those people had double checked to ensure their door was locked this would not have happened. But we could have been shot dead (this was in Missouri, but most people had guns when I grew up).

So lock your doors, set your alarm, and if somebody comes in despite all that, they're probably up to no good and they'd better run with one warning.

Springmom
__________________
I will not be a victim

home on the web:
www.panagia-icons.net (my webpage)
www.nousfromspring.blogspot.com (Orthodoxy)

"I couldn't hear you. Stop firing the gun while you're talking!" Frank Drebin, The Naked Gun
springmom is offline  
Old November 4, 2005, 07:34 PM   #25
XavierBreath
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 2002
Location: North Louisiana
Posts: 2,800
Remember we are talking about shooting through doors at threatening noises and unidentified targets...........Now here's why..... all of these folks have been known to enter a home under legitimate business if the door is unlocked. In my job, I do the same with my patients, and we have a long history of castle doctrine in Louisiana. I'm careful, I identify myself verbally and loudly about every three seconds, but it's part of the job.

Heck, I had a policeman enter my home one afternoon because my 3 year old daughter had dialed 911 from my phone! It happens. I'm glad I identified that target. He was too. She had heard if she needed help to dial 911. She needed help getting the cookie jar so........... Sometimes corporal punishment is justifiable.

The castle doctrine is fine and good, and you might use it to escape prosecution from an unjust killing. Convincing yourself that you should have identified your target and not taken an innocent life might be more difficult. You may not care whether you take a life now, but ten years after you have done so, it will still bother you. The only feeling worse than taking a life is the feeling you endure when you take a life without justification.
__________________
Xavier's Blog
XavierBreath is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:44 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.14879 seconds with 7 queries