The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old September 4, 2005, 01:13 PM   #26
Senior Member
Join Date: August 18, 2005
Location: PA
Posts: 228
JuniorCommando, what he did was honorable. Would you rather let the girl get raped? I'd find it very hard to sleep at night if I just walked right past a scene like that, knowing I was letting a girl get raped and possibly murdered afterwards.
Russ538 is offline  
Old September 4, 2005, 01:17 PM   #27
Junior member
Join Date: August 30, 2005
Location: North Carolina southern state where Class 3's banned!!
Posts: 30
Hey if this whole story is even real... post a link to the college security report. All colleges have them.
JuniorCommando is offline  
Old September 4, 2005, 01:20 PM   #28
Senior Member
Join Date: August 22, 2005
Location: Rhome, TX
Posts: 4,641

Do you attend school out of state? Perhaps in Northern VA?
fisherman66 is offline  
Old September 4, 2005, 01:33 PM   #29
Senior Member
Join Date: June 26, 2005
Posts: 619
AmEX card

Your knife and pistol should be your AmEx card,"Never leave home without them."
tshadow6 is offline  
Old September 4, 2005, 01:40 PM   #30
Senior Member
Join Date: March 23, 2005
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 266

The situation was resolved without deadly force.

A firearm may have made a bad situation even worse.
You did the right thing, and I would not have wanted my carry firearm at that point, had I had one, I probably would not have used it since:
1. I was drinking at a party
2. The act of rape is only implied unless he said he was going to
3. You don't know everything that is going on.

The guy got more than he bargained for and took off, and I am sure you did everything 100% correct.
Should he have been eliminated? In my mind yes, in the law's mind, no.
NRA Life Member

Current shopping list:
Bersa Thunder 9mm

Current Ownage:
Bersa .380 (Duo tone)
Kel Tec P3AT (SG)
Stoeger 2000 (black syn.) 26"
Winchester Model 97 12 gauge FULL
Marlin Firearms Model 60 22LR
BatmanX is offline  
Old September 4, 2005, 02:41 PM   #31
Senior Member
Join Date: August 6, 2005
Posts: 188
O.K. make it +5 for Powdermans post.
JuniorComando: #1: welcome aboard
#2: Would you still feel the same about "rule #1" if it was your Mom/Wife/Daughter who was being assulted.
X-RAY is offline  
Old September 4, 2005, 03:18 PM   #32
Join Date: August 8, 2005
Location: Seattle WA
Posts: 25

If you are worried about subduing someone without seriously hurting them a blunt weapon seems like the best way to go. swmine suggested a baseball bat, but that is a little cumbersome to carry around. Check the laws, but an carrying ASP seems like a good idea. Then you can “discourage” someone without really injuring them.
A six inch 586 is a thing of great beauty.
Bob42 is offline  
Old September 4, 2005, 03:56 PM   #33
Senior Member
Join Date: April 8, 2005
Location: Utah
Posts: 2,559
1. A knife in your hand could have gone up his rear end.
A.K.A. "Turkish Revenge". He would have remembered
for a long time.

2. Sans knife? A kick in the ribs just below the armpit is very
incapacitating. Two kicks even better.

2+ Sans knife or access to his upper rib cage... a kick to the gonads can
be pretty effective and if it ain't enough... another kick is better!

2++ If that ain't enough pick up the girl and let her have a turn.

3. The pistol would have had no effect. Unless you had the resolve to
use it. However, you might have gone upside his head with it!
Pointer is offline  
Old September 4, 2005, 04:18 PM   #34
Senior Member
Join Date: April 8, 2005
Location: Utah
Posts: 2,559

+1 for fisherman66

See his last line about JuniorCommando in entry #22... LOL

Junior, I hope it's your ass when nobody tries to help.

Kudos to SLATEMAN.
Pointer is offline  
Old September 6, 2005, 06:52 AM   #35
Junior member
Join Date: July 21, 2005
Location: West Palm Beach, FL
Posts: 1,224
Yeah, I can't go with, "It's none of my business; I'll do nothing and walk on by." I know too many women who've been raped.

Since it was asked, "Did I do right/wrong?" I'll say this about having a gun in that situation:

As you describe it, you were in a college drinking party, and had had a few drinks, yourself. That's a very bad kind of situation into which to mix your gun. Things have a way of getting highly stupid in such a situation, i.e. the gun carrier has a few, gets to thinking all tough-man and decides to show off his gun among his "buddies." Now one of them wants to HOLD it, but he's drunk, and the carrier is not fully sober either so he can't detect how badly this other guy should not be put in charge of a firearm...

Or how about a brawl breaks out in the dorm, and suddenly you're in a room into which a fight between four guys spills. Maybe someone even starts to fight with you. You may be forced to use a gun in a situation you never should have had one in, a situation that doesn't warrant its use and will get you into all sorts of trouble, not to mention the person(s) you might have to shoot.

As far as attacking the rapist, yeah, I think you did right. If you'd had a knife, and decided to take it out as you approached him, you'd have had to use it on him. That could have been really bad. What if this is her boyfriend, and after you knife him really bad, maybe to death, she decides that his behavior was not really rape, was not really even serious (maybe he's beat on her so long that she accepts it) and now you're defending your actions against a rapist who "wasn't really a rapist."

The girlfriend's mind can change drastically once she sees him on a slab in the morgue, and suddenly she doesn't view you as much of a hero anymore. Heck, even a girl who was being raped by a stranger might feel weird about taking your side if you kill the guy. Can't say that I really know what is best to do in 100% of such situations. Sometimes you just have to roll the dice.

But the situation you described is the kind that is usually said to be an inappropriate place to have a gun. Any time you get to drinking, you should seriously consider whether you should have a gun on you. In some places it might even been expressly illegal to drink with a gun on you -- not just illegal to have a gun where alcohol is served. I know it's at least against the rules of gun safety.

blackmind is offline  
Old September 6, 2005, 07:10 AM   #36
Senior Member
Join Date: December 6, 2002
Location: North Louisiana
Posts: 2,800
You did good. My hat's off to ya.
As far as a weapon, gun or knife, they are only as effective as your willingness to use them. Personally, I do not think either would have been effective in stopping this BGs actions unless used. A blow from a heavy object across his back would suceed in redirecting his energy though.

This was your option, and it worked better than any threat with a gun. Chances are if you had reacted as you surmised in #3, he would have charged, you would have shot, and you may have been hurt as he failed to stop. Guns aren't magic talismans. The willingness to fight like a badger often is though.

Did they catch the guy?

The points others have made about drinking and packing are well made, and I support them. No need to reiterate though.

You did very well. Thumbs up!
Xavier's Blog
XavierBreath is offline  
Old September 6, 2005, 07:51 AM   #37
Senior Member
Join Date: November 29, 2004
Location: South West OHIO (boondocks)
Posts: 1,337
You did great. Nothing "wrong". My hats off to you for being able to put yourself in harms way for a stranger. I can only hope that if anyone ever sees either of my girls in the same situation that they will act as you did.

As for the gun, as a few have said, not good on school propery (in most cases) and IMHO never good when any drinking is involved.

Alternatives. I don't think anyone mentioned a good strong defense spray? Like FOXLABS? Works pretty good, and less permanent damage than knife, so less trouble for you. Maybe a small stun device? (if legal on campus)

Again, great job.

If all men acted like men, and all women acted like women, we wouldn't need everyday heros.....
Derius_T is offline  
Old September 6, 2005, 09:11 AM   #38
Jon N Lakeland
Junior Member
Join Date: July 24, 2005
Posts: 6
nothing to add, except /salute!

Good job!
Jon N Lakeland is offline  
Old September 6, 2005, 09:13 AM   #39
Join Date: June 7, 2005
Location: Somewhere in VA
Posts: 38
Situation ended up OK in my book

Nobody was seriously injured, you saved someone from harm, you stopped an attack. Thats good to me.

If you had pepper spray, maybe you could have used that. I dont know how effective it would be againts a drunk though. But this is just Monday morning quaterbacking.

About carrying at State universities, was'nt there a Virginia Tech situation in which a student was dismissed from the university because of concealed carry? I think as a student or emplyee you agree not to have firearms and ammunition on school property.

Be safe and take care.
nug_38 is offline  
Old September 6, 2005, 11:01 AM   #40
Senior Member
Join Date: May 28, 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 6,231
You used what you had at save someone. nuff said.
not anything wrong with that plus you used the element of suprise.

I know our university prohibits carrying weapons even with a CCW.
Have a nice day at the range

NRA Life Member
Eghad is offline  
Old September 6, 2005, 11:36 AM   #41
Senior Member
Join Date: January 8, 2002
Location: TN
Posts: 556
Powderman, that quote about remembering the weapon you are is from Drawing of the Three (Dark Tower 2). I'd suggest that anyone who loves gun tales start with The Gunslinger (Dark Tower 1) and go from there. Best series I've ever read.

And to the OP, good job
Truth knows no political correctness.

I do not aim with my hand.......
jcoiii is offline  
Old September 6, 2005, 12:16 PM   #42
Senior Member
Join Date: December 26, 2004
Posts: 371
When I went to college one semester or two there was a night session rapist on campus that would attack women in the parking lot.
Well when they found out I was a "bouncer" on the weekeneds I had the honies waiting in line to have me walk them to thier cars
Maybe this is why I still cant type worth a Hillary...
Ramcharger is offline  
Old September 6, 2005, 03:14 PM   #43
john in jax
Senior Member
Join Date: August 11, 2005
Posts: 1,164
Check your local laws for CWP rules and regulations.

#1 FL law strictly prohibits drinking and carrying. So in FL you can't drink when you carry.

#2 CWP or not, in FL only LEO's can cary guns on college or university campuses (as well as many other places).
john in jax is offline  
Old September 6, 2005, 03:59 PM   #44
Senior Member
Join Date: April 19, 2005
Location: Left coast
Posts: 602
i myslef have been in a situation, but nothing came of it.
in short there was a drunk guy with a beer bottle which he broke on a lamp post. i was in a group of people with about 3 able bodied gentlemen. as soon as the bottle broke all of the guys got up and confronted the drunk. i had my hand on my knife straight away, but didnt draw. i cant remember what i was thinking exactly, but the guy was spooked by 3 large guys coming after him.
it very promptly ended with no bad results.
this happened at a holiday resort about 2 years ago.
Dre_sa is offline  
Old September 6, 2005, 06:23 PM   #45
Senior Member
Join Date: July 26, 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 351
Call for back-up

All in all, good job! Many people would have turned a blind eye. Sounds like you averted some serious harm, and it worked out well.

That said, what were the options to notify someone? If I had a cell phone, I probably would have called it in, hopefully to the Campus Cops' direct line. At least find a passerby, if possible: Vector in the back up, contain the situation, catch the guy (he's going to do it again).

Of course, I don't own a cellphone, and I wouldn't have left the girl you go for it. Just know you got lucky.

I wouldn't advise carrying illegally, even a knife, especially if you're drinking.
R1145 is offline  
Old September 7, 2005, 02:32 AM   #46
Join Date: December 3, 2004
Posts: 43
Well, even if you had a CCW, I would not carry while drinking or at a party.

Anyways first of all good job, anyone that tells you that you should have walked away is a COWARD and the problem with our society nowadays.

But as for using a firearm in this situation, its sketchy. You can only use lethal force when presented with lethal force. Hence I dont think you could have pulled your weapon because you were not presented with ACTUAL lethal force. Sure it could have turned deadly, but I dont think it reached that level yet.

Anyways this is why I tell people to carry OC Spray (pepper spray) in addition to their sidearm. Get a can of fox labs spray. Works good in situations where lethal force is not justified and you can carry it while drinking and partying without risking killing someone. Look here:
djw6611 is offline  
Old September 7, 2005, 11:43 AM   #47
Junior member
Join Date: August 30, 2005
Location: North Carolina southern state where Class 3's banned!!
Posts: 30
still waiting for the security report
JuniorCommando is offline  
Old September 7, 2005, 03:14 PM   #48
Rob P.
Junior member
Join Date: September 7, 2005
Posts: 467
My first post to this forum.

I want to say, hats off to you for your actions. More people need to ACT instead of walking on by or closing the drapes when stuff happens.

As for wishing you were carrying, probably a bad deal in this instance. Besides the booze issues, the conflict didn't escalate far enough to "need" to pull iron. Doing so too early is called "brandishing" and makes YOU the BG.

I would consider taking some personal combat instruction and learning some "dirty moves" so that you can throw your opponent and HURT him in situations like this. A dislocate elbow or shoulder is pretty disabling and is fairly easy to do if you know how. Plus it makes the BG easy for the cops to spot at the hosp.

Don't go looking for reasons to draw your piece when you do carry. It's bad enough that you feel you have to have one and be ready to use it without compounding it by being "too ready".

As for Junior's request for an "incident report" to prove it happened, who cares. Even if it didn't happen, it's STILL valuable information on what to do and what not to do. And that's the purpose of this particular section of this forum - training and tactics.
Rob P. is offline  
Old September 7, 2005, 03:42 PM   #49
Senior Member
Join Date: September 7, 2001
Location: Washington State
Posts: 2,164
Junior--just curious.

Who or what are you, that you can ask for a "incident report" to "validate" this post?

Are you LEO, a security officer, or someone with a background in one of those fields?

Not meaning to start a war, but you sound like a troublemaker and a troll.
Hiding in plain sight...
Powderman is offline  
Old September 7, 2005, 05:42 PM   #50
Senior Member
Join Date: January 8, 2002
Location: TN
Posts: 556
+1 on the troll call.

Why do you think this guy is lying?
Truth knows no political correctness.

I do not aim with my hand.......
jcoiii is offline  

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:59 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2016 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent:
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.09842 seconds with 7 queries