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Old June 22, 2005, 06:04 PM   #1
Tom Givens
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Student Incident

Student Incident

One of our students recently reported an incident he was involved in, with several good teaching points. James has taken a number of courses from Rangemaster, including advanced classes with Simunitions role play, which prepared him well for this encounter.

James and his sister were walking his dog in James’ neighborhood, a nice middle class area where his parents also live nearby. It was early in the evening, and nothing indicated anything other than a normal evening stroll.

A black sedan with tinted windows passed by James and his sister and went on by. James noted the vehicle, and watched it as it went well past them down the street to their rear. Well down the street it turned around and headed back: again, this was noticed by James. As the vehicle pulled along side them and slowed to a stop, the passenger window came down and an arm appeared through the window, holding a handgun. James had discussed this sort of incident with his sister previously, and she immediately began moving away from the car. James quickly moved in another direction, toward the right rear of the suspect vehicle. This made it very difficult for the passenger to direct the handgun toward James. As he moved, James reached for the Kahr handgun he had concealed on his person. The vehicle sped off, with no shots fired and no one injured, which is the way we like these things to end.

1. When you least expect it, you’re elected! James was in a “safe” location, a “good neighborhood” within sight of his own home. He was still armed, and more importantly, still alert and aware.
2. Prior preparation prevents piss poor performance! James had considered this sort of incident PRIOR to its occurrence, and he had discussed it with someone likely to be with him if it happened. Both he and his sister had a pre-planned response in mind. This is critical, as it removes confusion and hesitation, your worst enemies.
3. An aggressive response is your best defense. When James moved off line and went for his pistol, that was all the bad guys needed to convince them to leave at once. Had James just stood there, he may have been shot, or the BG’s may have exited the vehicle and robbed/raped/assaulted what they saw as helpless victims.

Be alert and aware of your environment, regardless of time of day or the part of town you’re in. Be armed. Have a plan to deal with violence. Remember, violent crime only happens to someone else. To every other person on the planet, YOU are someone else.

Tom Givens
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Old June 22, 2005, 06:13 PM   #2
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The Young Man and his Sister are to be commended on their maneuvers with the BG. I am glad that they made it unharmed and I am also glad that he didn't have to kill the BG at his young age. Perhaps a grownup will get a shot at the perp and end his cruising, hopefully!

It is so sad that Citizens have to live in the same area and world with such a worthless group of scumbags.
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Old June 22, 2005, 06:33 PM   #3
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I am not doubting this event at all. It sounds very strange to me though. I know that random acts of violence happen, however, this case sounds crazy. A black sedan with tinted windows drives by, in a middle class neighborhood...just to shoot someone taking a walk? Was there other incidences of this behaviour in that neck of the woods? Being that it may have been an isolated case...makes it sound even stranger. If someone is crazy enough to just drive around in decent neighborhoods to shoot people taking walks...they surely are crazy enough to continue this behaviour until they actually do, or they have already done so and are confident in success. Perhaps this young man has not told the whole story, like he may have pissed someone off or may have had a history with the driver/BG. In the past, I have lived in an area known to have gang/drug activity...never, Never was there any type of this crazy behaviour, unless it was a retaliation or rival gang activity. Just my thoughts.
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Old June 22, 2005, 06:55 PM   #4
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Topthis: with all due respect, this happens more than you know, in areas you wouldn't ever expect it.
Additionally, it doesn't really matter if he did piss someone off, gang/drug activity, whatever. The fact is, it happened, and he was prepared for it mentally and physically. Believing that you're in a nice neighborhood and this will never happen because it has never happened to you puts you in condition white.
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Old June 22, 2005, 06:59 PM   #5
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Hello Mr. G. from Jim and Denise. We're about overdue for a little range time! See you guys soon and hope all is well.

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"But today you just read that the man was shot dead
By a gun that didn’t make any noise
But it wasn’t the bullet that laid him to rest was
The low spark of high-heeled boys"
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Old June 22, 2005, 07:09 PM   #6
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Last edited by PythonGuy; June 23, 2005 at 02:09 PM.
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Old June 22, 2005, 08:28 PM   #7
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Just curious. Did the BG try to mug him, you know say give me your wallet or something along those lines. Or was it just completely random. Just goes to show though you can never be overly cautious.
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Old June 22, 2005, 08:47 PM   #8
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I'd sooner believe in scientology.
PythonGuy, you have proven repeatedly by your posts that you don't believe in armed self-defense. Some of us do. If you don't, lock away your unloaded guns until the next time you go to the range, but stop telling us that things did not happen to us or that we were wrong for defending ourselves from external threats. The keyboard diarrhea you suffer from every time you enter T&T and read about an armed citizen foiling the plans of a criminal grows tiresome.
"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!” - Samuel Adams
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Old June 22, 2005, 08:50 PM   #9
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He has admited in a few posts that he is also a liberal, so isnt that attitude only natural.
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Old June 22, 2005, 09:08 PM   #10
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Mr. Givens has earned and deserves respect folks!!

You want to discuss something else not in original post - start your own thread.

Thank you Mr. Givens for sharing and reminding us all.

One would be wise to read again the original post and the lessons.

One never knows the where or when of next encounter - CRSam
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Old June 22, 2005, 09:37 PM   #11
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I don't doubt this at all. In fact I have heard of this sort of thing where gang members drive out to the subs to initiate a new member by having them do a driveby on some random person they see. Ususlly outside larger cities tough.
If you know the enemy and know yourself you need not fear the results of a hundred battles. - Sun Tzu
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Old June 22, 2005, 09:51 PM   #12
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Likelihood of this Incident Happening

My son is a serving police officer with ten years experience. He will be happy to sit down and recount such "unlikely" and "implausible" incidents as:

- the circumstances of a variety of gang-induction rituals requiring that the proposed new member murder someone - sometimes a member of a different cultural or racial group, sometimes just anyone - as a requisite for admission;

- the circumstances of an "amped" person who "just felt like popping somebody" as an expression of joie d'vivre, rage, resentment, whatever, who then shot and killed a total stranger.

These are not urban legends expressing some diffuse racial or cultural tension afloat in our society. These are incidents on the books, and we don't yet have a name for what they are. That they are frequently, ah, substance-related, always sociopathological and monstrous is obvious. That they are all too real, and happen every day is undeniable. Anyone who believes otherwise is kidding himself.

I hate the idea of having to obtain a CC permit just to leave the safety of my own house with some expectation of coming back to it. Did I say "leave my own house"? Ooops - there was a home invasion two houses up the street five years ago wherein misguided youths with shotguns terrorized, duct-taped, and beat members of three generations of one family before leaving. Less than one year ago my great Aunt and her husband - both in their eighties -were pistol-whipped in their home in the early afternoon by a wandering meth head.

Think the value and "niceness" of your neighborhood, or that it had "never" happened there before" makes you immune or the incident to hand implausible? Think again, and when Topthis says that the whole thing just sounds "crazy" and doesn't seem to make any sense, he's quite correct: it IS crazy. "Craziness" is a defining and necessary component. And it does happen. It is just a damnable shame that you can't go or be anywhere in our country with any expectation of safety.
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Old June 22, 2005, 10:16 PM   #13
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Well, I for one find the story so obviously contrived, it's nothing short of absurd.. I would ask the poster if there was a police report; did "James" or his "sister "use a cell phone to call 911? Did "James" or his "sister" get a license number? There are people who thrive on fear and paranoia and I suspect the poster is one.
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Old June 22, 2005, 10:46 PM   #14
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These days there is no such thing as a safe neighborhood or safe anywhere..

I can easily beleive it happened. The bad Guys are looking for sheep. By his actions and showing the BGs he was ready they headed for easier prey. If I am leaving the houe and see a strange person in the neighborhood or a car idling by the side of the road, I sometimes make another pass by the house.
If the BG sees that you are aware..they will be going to greener find a sheep herd.

if I were a BG I would see if the state had a database of CCW by zip code and def not go to one where a high % of folks had them.

You get a CCW because you as a person know that statistical abberations in the case above.

BTW I am a liberal who beleives in self defense and the 2nd Amendment.
Have a nice day at the range

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Old June 23, 2005, 12:11 AM   #15
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Tom's story reminds us of "The Rule of The Seven P's"
Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance. With a plan in mind and executed without any quibbling no one was hurt and no shots were fired.

Anyone familiar with sniper techniques can guess how the BGs might learn from this lesson and surprise their next victim.

Lest people think that no one drives around and randomly shoots people, do a Google search (for you young'uns) on "Zodiac Killer" and "San Francisco".
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Old June 23, 2005, 07:07 AM   #16
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while it's strange, i wouldn't doubt it - why would you come make up a story on TFL? to convince the membership that they should own guns and train with them? i dunno, sounds like a tough sell to me
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Old June 23, 2005, 09:18 AM   #17
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"Ususlly outside larger cities tough." Memphis is not what I would call a one horse town.

Yeah, I can believe this. People do all kinds of stupid things. The handgun could have been an airpistol type and the intention was to scare someone and enjoy the reaction. I have seen punks riding around pelting pedestrians with paintballs. Punks sometimes drive along beside bicyclists and giving them a shove, just to see them wipe out. People ride in the back of pickups and throw eggs at pedestrians. Most of the time it is teenagers and young adults acting stupid.

Sic Semper Tyrannis
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Old June 23, 2005, 10:10 AM   #18
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Creibility of Posters

I had to join the Forum to make a comment. I know the author of the original post. Since he is using his real name, anyone with internet savvy can check on him themselves. For those of you who don't know, this is one dead serious guy. He wouldn't post something he didn't think was serious. If he thinks there is a lesson in there, then I'm going to study it.

That's what I think of Tom's credibility. Here's to you posters who are making light of this. Myself, I've lived in Dallas and Atlanta since 1986, and I've seen the big city. Oh, for a year and a half in there, I lived in a tough neihborhood in Montgomery AL and now I'm with Uncle supporting the War on Terror. Something a lot like this happened recently in Dallas -- according to the newpaper. A restaurant owner in an upscale neighborhood was walking down the sidewalk with his wife, when someone pulled the same stunt, but with different results: they shot her to death. This is not an unusual happening in the big city, folks. Anyone who thinks this is far-fetched or overblown, well, all I can say is, good luck.
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Old June 23, 2005, 10:31 AM   #19
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I have met Mr. Givens at the NTI twice. I believe what he says. I have heard him recant similar instances to a group containing some of the best known trainers in the country.

I also find it hard to believe that folks don't believe that things like this happen. Those responses esp. with the nasty tone are simply trolls taking advantage of some fake name.

Also, I'm not a conservative but very pro gun and self-defense.

The anecdote gives us a chance to learn. Unless you are unable.
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Old June 23, 2005, 10:45 AM   #20
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+1 for 45-70's comments.
Nothing further really needs to be added.
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Old June 23, 2005, 11:06 AM   #21
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Sounds like he has the most important skill needed to survive, awareness.
For the naysayers, what are you worried about. Those who are armed for legitmate self defense are no threat to you and those who would go to nice neighborhoods and commit random acts of crime don't exist, right? I guess that the random home invasions, acts of terror and violence involving I've responded to in the past ten years as a cop didn't really happen.
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Old June 23, 2005, 11:20 AM   #22
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Last edited by PythonGuy; June 23, 2005 at 12:24 PM.
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Old June 23, 2005, 11:53 AM   #23
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WHat is with you nay-sayers? Why would you not believe such bad things happen? SomeONE is shooting up the freeways out here in LA - another RANDOM incident almost every other day. SomeONE has tried plenty of times yanking kids into their car in NY, even in the nice neighborhood where I work. People go missing all the time, only to wind up murdered. Woman are raped. People beat up and robbed. Kids molested/murdered. Etc. etc. THIS is why we carry - because bad stuff happens to good people, and you can only really count on yourself to survive.

Who knows what the BG's intent was - a random shooting, a mugging, an abduction, some punks getting their rocks off. Luckily James handled in nicely and can live to talk about it - so we can learn.
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Old June 23, 2005, 12:16 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by PythonGuy
I don't believe in a carry permit making someone feel they can now investigate others transgressions, however.

Transgression: the act of transgressing; the violation of a law or a duty or moral principle.

Can you explain to us please, how your comment has any bearing whatsoever to the topic at hand? A carry permit only allows the legal carry of a weapon (usually concealed).

You’re asserting that a carry permit gives us the authority to "investigate" another's act of violating the law.

There are two problems with that assertion.

1. This has nothing to do with a carry permit. (I think you have carry permit envy).

2. The only "transgression" involves the punks in the vehicle - whose strategy we are not critiquing. James acted w/in the boundaries of law, duty, and moral principle.

Lastly, and please be honest. Are you a troll?
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Old June 23, 2005, 12:37 PM   #25
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Don't be a schmuck!!!

That's what I think of Tom's credibility. Here's to you posters who are making light of this. Myself, I've lived in Dallas and Atlanta since 1986, and I've seen the big city. Oh, for a year and a half in there, I lived in a tough neihborhood in Montgomery AL and now I'm with Uncle supporting the War on Terror. Something a lot like this happened recently in Dallas -- according to the newpaper. A restaurant owner in an upscale neighborhood was walking down the sidewalk with his wife, when someone pulled the same stunt, but with different results: they shot her to death. This is not an unusual happening in the big city, folks. Anyone who thinks this is far-fetched or overblown, well, all I can say is, good luck
Everyone who posts here has a right to their own opinion, but for those of you who are ridiculing Tom Givens (the original poster) and James and his sister (the two people who were threatened at gunpoint,) YOU ARE ALL SIMPLEMINDED SCHMUCKS, PERIOD.

On what basis do you challenge the credibility of the story being told by this man??? Were you there? NO. Did your superior powers of observation allow you to sit back in the comfort of your home, hundreds or thousands of miles away and watch the confrontation? NO. Are you able to travel back through time via an out of body experience to see the event in question? NO.

Maybe you should consider putting your preconceived notions of what "really" happened aside and take the man's story at face value, for crying out loud!! Do you really think that these people have nothing better to do in life than to sit around and cook up stories like this that didn't happen? Jeezuz, give me a break!!!

The reality is that we live in a world where we have scumbag psychopaths known as gang-bangers who consider killing innocent people going about their business as a form of entertainment or as a mark of "manhood" that will gain them admission to a gang so they can have help in spreading their crack cocaine, heroin, intimidation and fear in our culture.

The car with the black windows and the gun-pointing thug could have easily been a drive-by shooting about to happen, or it could have been a carful of bored scumbags that just wanted to see if they could make a couple of "straight white-bread" people wet themselves just for laughs. Guess we'll never know.

Thank God James had thought this type of situation through beforehand and reacted in a way that stopped this attack cold; otherwise it easily could have ended up as two more dead people who were guilty of the "crime" of walking their dog down THEIR street.

As far as the possibility of it being someone that James had "pissed off," the last time I checked, pissing someone off did not give the pissed off party a green light to commit murder.

Bottom line: We live in a culture that has a certain percentage of "citizens" who can only be described as criminal predators. Drive by shootings and intimidation with firearms have been going on for decades - unfortunately, they are a part of our culture.

It would be a good idea to study and learn from this incident rather than ridiculing the two people who were a trigger's pull away from the morgue.

Last edited by progunner1957; June 23, 2005 at 01:09 PM.
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