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Old September 17, 2005, 04:55 PM   #76
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GUNS Magazine (November 2005) quote:

"Maximize the distance to the threat...Minimize yourself as a target. Carry a gun, and two would be better. Carry spare ammunition, the more the better. Carry a flashlight, and two would be better. If you think there is going to be a fight...leave!"

Clint Smith

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Old September 18, 2005, 10:40 PM   #77
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Leadcounsel Wrote:

I think much too much time is spent worrying about 1 in 100,000 million scenareos and not real scenarios, such as conditioning your body and mind to be able to exercise (simulating running for cover or wrestling with attacker) and then shooting, aka tactics and physical training.
Your most likely right uhm, leadcounsel. I hear there are some links to some very useful information on fighting styles and extensive training techniques over at " "
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Old September 19, 2005, 03:03 AM   #78
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Back up gun. Knife.

<<Either way, wherever the holster and spare are, I see a problem. The task of loading a spare mag into the gun is a two-handed operation, isn't it? What happens if the BG has your other hand locked in some sort of struggle, like say you're keeping him from choking you with your weak hand while your strong hand is grabbing your gun? You empty a mag into him, but he's doped up on something, and still attacking? How do you get that other mag, and load it into your gun, all one-handed? Any thoughts on this anyone?>>
I am a Soldier. I fight where I'm told, and I win where I fight."

GEN George S. Patton, Jr.
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Old September 19, 2005, 03:11 AM   #79
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While I disagree with alot of what leadcounsel says, he is right that training and practice is actually far more important than gear, as is physical fitness and a warrior mindset. To my mind a "mallnija" is the guy who straps on his latest wunderpistol and hicap mags, but doesn't practice tactical shooting regularly, doesn't maintain situational awareness, gets out of breath running up 2 flights of stairs and hasn't trained or equipped himself for alternatives to his firearm.

<<Your most likely right uhm, leadcounsel. I hear there are some links to some very useful information on fighting styles and extensive training techniques over at " " >>
I am a Soldier. I fight where I'm told, and I win where I fight."

GEN George S. Patton, Jr.
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Old September 19, 2005, 09:18 AM   #80
Jack Malloy
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Let me repeat this for you guys who think its 1873 and your pistol is a henry rifle.
The main reason to carry a spare mag whether you are a civillian, a green beret or a swat cop is this — 90 PERCENT OF ALL JAMS ARE MAGAZINE RELATED.
In other words, when you need it most your high capacity bullet hose can become a single shot if you only have one mag.
Firepower and extra ammo has nothing to do with it. They are nice, but not so nice as having a reserve in the case that your worne out old feedlips give up halfway through the first shot.
Do you really want to rip a damaged mag out of the gun, pull out the bullets and manually feed them into the chamber when a bad guy is popping off .380 rounds in your general direction?
Its that simple and ignore that fact at your own risk.
Personaly I think its stupid to pack around a gun and a cell phone and no spare mag for a semi auto. You'd be better off leaving the cell phone at home and jamming a spare mag in your pocket.
Does your survival really depend on somebody calling you when you are in a darkened movie theater or on the toilet?
Wear a good cover garment and most people will never know you are carrying, let alone carrying a spare mag. Dump your cell phone and carry your spare mag in the phone holder if you have to. Nobody will notice.

>>I'll also reiterate that I don't carry a spare mag b/c I see it as useless in a civilian urban situation and as such a waste of time and effort and it's just one more thing I've gotta carry and be responsible for and draw attention to me as a CCW, which is what I DON"T want.<<
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Old September 19, 2005, 10:02 AM   #81
Glenn E. Meyer
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I might repeat that if one hangs with trained folks, rather than ninja-oids, they looked normally dressed but have a flashlight, gun, mag, knife, phone, OC without little trouble. Some even have a bug.

We've sat together in nice restaurants and no one looks extreme or burdened.

So I suppose that all the trainers I've met are just nuts and no nothing about the real world and/or legal issues? Sigh.
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens
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Old September 19, 2005, 11:01 AM   #82
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Range report from 9/18; wisdom of BUG or extra magazine

I am "yielding" my position with further explanation as follows:

Went to the range and ran about 200-400 rounds through the following guns from standing postition with 1 second between shots:

Gun Distance MOA # of Jams and causes
Beretta 92 15' 2" *
Beretta 92 35' 4" *
Glock 35 15' 1" none
Glock 35 35' 2" none
Springfield XD 3" 15' 1.5" one failure to feed **
Springfield XD 4" 15' 1.5" none
Springfield XD 4" 35' 2.5" none
S&W SW9 9mm 15' 2" multiple ***
Taurus 607 .357 15' (SA) 2" none
Taurus 607 .357 35' (SA) 3" none

*I've been running hundreds of rounds through my pistols without cleaning to see how well they'll function when filthy dirty. I'd estimate it's been 1000 rounds or more for the above pistols since their last cleaning. I will scrub them tonight. The Beretta's fuction was excellent with the Beretta supplied magazine, but it jammed repeatedly with the aftermarket mags.

**The Springfield XD had one failure to feed which was cleared in about 1 second and firing resumed.

***I am not a fan of S&W semi-autos and this was a friend's gun who joined me at the range. This gun as probably less than 1000 rounds through it in its lifetime. I've shot this gun in the past for a total of 200 rounds. I've experienced about 5 jams with this gun in those 200 rounds. On 9/18 this gun broke and became completely useless. The plastic frame near the front completely broke releasing the guide rod and the slide.

Drawing from my albeit limited experience of 6 years as a gun owner, collector, and shooter, I personally feel that the extra magazine is useful in SOME situations and useless in others. It is circumstantial and dependent on whether one feels that it's necessary; in some cases it may be and others it may not. While crime can and certainly does strike unexpectedly, one may gauge the "relative danger" of ones' daily life.

This range experience has illuminated many things that both support and defeat my own argument and offer lessons as follows:
1: Any gun can fail whether it be a jam or a complete failure by breaking!
2: Failures by a gun are often magazine or ammuntion related. Avoid bad ammo and mags. (In the past I've found that Wolf ammo causes many jams in guns/mags that do not have a tendency to jam)
3: With the proper ammo and mags, semi auto guns rarely jam. Even when filthy dirty from 1000 rounds of fire and months since their last cleaning, Beretta only jammed with bad magazines and functioned flawlessly and accurately with the proprietary magazine; the Glock 35 has functioned flawlessly and accurately; the Springfield XD 4" has functioned flawlessly and accurately; the Springfield XD 3" has had ONE failure to feed which was cleared in 1 second. ONE failure in about 3000 rounds between these three dirty guns is acceptable for self defense purposes IMHO. These three guns, and mainly the G35 and the XD 3" are my primary line of personal self defense in the home (G35; backed up with 12 gauge or .223) and public (XD 3").
4: In thousands of rounds the Taurus revolver has NEVER failed to fire.

Conclusion: It's well accepted that any gun can fail, jam, misfire, or break. In my opinion, and for my circumstances, it's not practical to carry more than just a few tools, and I pick the tools that are most LIKELY to be called upon in the UNLIKELY event I'll need to use them. I dress professionally or business professional regularly, and casually when not working. Business attire gives me the ability to comfortably conceal a handgun and one mag (along with keyring with 5 keys, cell phone, pocket folder knife, wallet). With casual dress I can conceal maybe one or two more items with more discomfort. I generally chose nothing more except a flashlight at night.
While a multi-tool would be handy about 1% of the time it's bulk and weight are rarely warranted unless camping. The bulk and weight of a spare magazine are also not warranted (IMO) unless traveling into a rougher area.
The reason for this belief is from the above testing. One can't prepare for every scenario. For those that carry an extra mag, what if your gun breaks? For those that carry an extra gun, what if both guns fail? Or, even worse, what if the perp grabs your spare gun in a physical struggle and now you've armed the perp?

While it makes sense in some situations, I don't and won't generally carry a spare mag or gun because of the extremely rare failure in my self-defense gun. If I felt that my semi-auto would fail, I would get a different semi-auto or magazine or use different ammo or, if that failed, I would chose a revolver because they are more reliable.

Hope this ADDS something to the discussion ...
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