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Old September 6, 1999, 09:26 AM   #1
Bruce from West Oz
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Join Date: February 26, 1999
Location: Perth, Western Australia
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STATION: TRIPLE J New South Wales TIME: 1112


PRESENTER - SARAH MacDONALD....Right now on the show we're going to talk about hunting. What is it about men
and guns? There are lots of boys who enjoy killing for sport, and although the activity in Australia has shifted pretty much
from the rich to the lower income groups, one fact remains, it's mostly men who do the shootin'.

Have you ever been hunting? What's the appeal of killing something that can't fight back for you? Research does show it's a
blokey thing, but if you're a woman, do you have hunting envy? Or have you been converted? We'd like to hear from you this
hour. And the phones are already running hot.

For the last seven years Dr Catherine Schuller has been studying why men choose to hunt, and the reasons they use to justify
it. And she joins us now in the Triple J studios to share her research. Hello, Catherine, welcome to Triple J.


MacDONALD....Good to have you in here. So why did you decide to do a thesis on hunting? What drew you to this?

SCHULLER....Well, I suppose I should make a correction before I start speaking, I'm not actually a psychologist..

MacDONALD....No, you're not.

SCHULLER....I'm a vet.

MacDONALD....You're a vet, you're an animal vet.

SCHULLER....I'm a vet.

MacDONALD....You're a vet, you're an animal psychologist. [ Laugh


SCHULLER....Yes. And I suppose my interest, my main interest is animal welfare, and I started.. this interest grew when I
worked in the abattoirs, and I worked there as a vet in charge of Meat Inspectors.

MacDONALD....So what was a vet doing in an abattoir?

SCHULLER....Oh, well, we have to supervise humane slaughter, also check the pathology on the floor. This is going back
some years ago.


SCHULLER....But also there's an administrative role, and that's where I suppose I started to be interested in male behaviour,
because I had to be the boss of all these men, and it was very much a male environment. And I saw a lot of cruelty, a lot of
cruelty in slaughter and transport, and from there I got involved in research into humane slaughter, and finally through
Government Animal Welfare Agency I was involved in the inquiry into duck and quail hunting.


SCHULLER....And it all sort of seemed to come together, and I decided I would do a PhD on hunting, and combine, you
know, my interests and my experience.

MacDONALD....Do you think hunting can ever be humane?

SCHULLER....No, I don't, I think the essence of hunting precludes it being a humane way of killing animals. And I think the
reason is that the animal's always given a sporting chance, it's not restrained, it has to be able to flee, and because of that
reason, the element of chance, then it's going to.. you know, it's..

MacDONALD....You might injure them instead of..

SCHULLER....Well, they're going to..

MacDONALD....killing them.

SCHULLER....get wounded. Yes, there's a greater probability of them being wounded, and you know, going off and dying a
rather miserable death.

MacDONALD....Mm. So, in.. in.. in part of your research, did you take part in any hunting expeditions?

SCHULLER....I had been hunting, I had to do quite a lot of prac work in the country in training to be a vet, and I went rabbit
shooting. I've also done a bit of riding to hounds, fox hunting. But most of my research, I used the literature from America
where they're very big into hunting, there's quite a bit of academic literature, and also the hunting magazines that hunters
subscribe to, like The Sporting Shooter, Guns and Game, and the.. they were very revealing, because hunters send in
anecdotes, and they like to talk about their hunting experiences..


SCHULLER....and I.. and I interpreted those and used them as examples to highlight my.. the themes and..

MacDONALD....The.. the research you were doing.


MacDONALD....We'll just get into tho.. those themes in just a sec, but when you said you've been on t.. on hunting
expeditions.. I mean, rabbit hunting.. rabbit shooting is very different to riding with the hounds, I can imagine, where you have
to wear the proper clothes and, you know, jump over hurdles and..


MacDONALD....there's rules of.. rules of hunting engagement.



SCHULLER....yes, there.. there's the.. the ritual and the etiquette..


SCHULLER....perhaps more so than any other form of hunting in Australia. And I don't really regard it as hunting. They call it
riding to hounds now, and I think that's sort of to improve its image. I mean, most people who are out there riding probably
wouldn't even see the fox, so, I mean.. and if indeed they do find one, and.. and some hunts clubs.. well, quite a few hunt
clubs in Australia use a drag, so they're not..

MacDONALD....What's that? [ Unclear ]

SCHULLER....Well, it's a scent that they lay out for the hounds to follow, so there's.. there's no..

MacDONALD....There's not really a fox.

SCHULLER....there's no fox. Well, a fox is not really needed, it's really superfluous to the whole day's outing.

MacDONALD....So, did you get the fun and the.. and the..

SCHULLER....Oh, yes. Yes. of the thrill of the chase when there wasn't really anything..


MacDONALD....that was going to die at the end?

SCHULLER....Yes. I mean, the fun in riding to hounds is just galloping in the country and going over fences. I mean.. and I
think a lot of people are rather horrified at the.. the end point of the hunt, when the fox is sort of torn to bits by the dog and..
and, you know, the bits are shared out to the best riders, you know, like the tail and the.. the scalp and.. it.. they're awards
for riding well on the day.

MacDONALD....Does that happen in Australia with the fox?

SCHULLER....Yes, yes, it does.


SCHULLER....Yes, mm.

MacDONALD....And what about when you went rabbit shooting, which, I suppose, is a very different class of.. of.. of.. of..
of killing and hunting? I mean, does it differ a lot in terms of.. is it just the class difference.. the whole ritual, or is it still a.. a
very much a ritual that's exciting?

SCHULLER....Oh, no, no, no, there's a lot that.. I wouldn't.. wouldn't even say that there was ritual. There's probably some
ritual in duck hunting. I know that there's, you know, certain attire and so on, and.. and I think perhaps in Victoria, it's
probably more elitist or.. because it's a more conservative state, you probably get more well-to-do duck hunters. And I think
even Malcolm Fraser is a patron of the Field and Game Association.

MacDONALD....Is he?

SCHULLER....Yes. And Henry Bolte use to be a keen duck hunter, so..

MacDONALD....So.. so why do men hunt? Have you reached any conclusions?

SCHULLER....Well, there've been quite a few surveys, you know, where they've asked hunters "What are the reasons.. you
know, why.. why do you hunt?", and I suppose they really.. the motivations really fall into three grat.. categories. First of all,
they like the exercise of skills and the sense of success they get in killing animals; the second reason is that they like the
companionships or camaraderie with other hunters; and the third reason is that a lot of them like to be out in Nature, and feel
at one with Nature and enjoy the outdoors, and they get a feeling of escaping, you know, the realities of life. So.. but they're..
they're the reasons that hunters give, but when hard-pressed, you know, on the issue of, "Well, the essence of hunting is the
killing of the animal", that's when they tend to resort to things like, "Oh, well, it's instinct", or, "Man has hunted for ninety-nine
percent of human history, therefore, you know, it's all right for me to hunt now". So that's what.. what hunters probably
would.. would say.

MacDONALD....So, it's the whole philosophy of, "Well, we eat meat, so we should be able to.. to kill it"? I mean, aren't we
hypocritical, I suppose, if we can't kill it ourselves?

SCHULLER....Well, I think you have to really draw the distinction between hunting for meat and hunting for sport. And I
think a lot of hunters who do hunt for sport use the fact that they might occasionally eat some of what they.. they kill, they use
that as some sort of justification, but their primary motive, really, is pleasure. Yes.

MacDONALD....What's the pleasure?

SCHULLER....The pleasure? I don't know. You.. Ernest Hemmingway is perhaps the most articulate defender of hunting,
and he wrote some very perceptive comments about the moment of the kill, and I think, ultimately, it is.. it is about power. It's
a feeling of power over life and death, to be able to administer death, yeah, and especially..

MacDONALD....You feel like a bit of a god?

SCHULLER....Yes, and I think that sort of accounts for the adrenalin rush that these young blokes talk about. I think the
more thoughtful hunters, after the kill, feel a remorse, which is the.. an odd sort of thing. I don't know, it's terribly complex..

MacDONALD....Do they feel remorse for killing, or..

SCHULLER....Yes, I think they do.

MacDONALD....because they felt this adrenalin rush and this power and this thrill?

SCHULLER....Oh, probably both. Probably a little bit of shame, perhaps, at the sensations they'd been feeling when they
killed. I don't know. This is something that I.. I will probably never understand, but this is what I've read in the literature..

MacDONALD....Mmhm. All right, well..

SCHULLER....and hopefully some of our callers might be able to..

MacDONALD....Well, exactly. I think we've got lots of people on the.. on.. on the line who are going to explain the.. the
thrill of the hunt. And our first caller actually is unusual, because she is a girl, I think...

Edited SA female discussing fox hunting on horses: SSAA

We're talking about hunting on The Morning Show. With us is Catherine Schuller, and she's studied magazines that are to do
with hunting and shooting and the behaviour of hunters, and we're talking to you as well about it all.

I mean.. Catherine, before we take another call, what's the editorial approach of hunting magazines? How do they describe
the activity? As a sport?

SCHULLER....Well, they're very unrepentant. In fact, Sporting Shooter take a fairly aggressive approach, you know,
professing that they're not going to be politically correct and they're not going to modify their language and so on in the
magazines that they produce.

MacDONALD....So there's no j.. justif.. self-justification? It's.. it's honest and..

SCHULLER....Oh, none whatso.. no, no, completely unapologetic, yes..

MacDONALD....Mm. Mmhm. what they do. Although, when they put an ad in requesting stories with photos, they did suggest that
perhaps not send photos with lots of blood, because it would give ammunition to greenies to, you know, attack their sport.

MacDONALD....What, so they have photos of.. of the carcass and stuff?

SCHULLER....Oh, yes. Actually, yeah, I should have shown you a magazine. Yes.. oh, yes, this is all part of it: to be
photographed next to your dead animal.

MacDONALD....Is there still lots of stuffing going on and sticking it up on the walls?

SCHULLER....Oh, yes, yes.

MacDONALD....Is there?

SCHULLER....Yeah. Oh, the trophy is very important, either the tusks or the antlers, or the whole head, or.. You know,
there's a very complex system of measuring it so that men can sort of rate themselves against other hunters. So there's a very
competitive element in it as well.

MacDONALD....We don't have any of those things, though, in Australia. A crocodile you could stuff, I suppose.

SCHULLER....Oh, yes, deer, yeah, deer, pigs' heads.

MacDONALD....Pigs' heads on your wall?


MacDONALD....That's a look. Hello, Damian.

CALLER - DAMIAN....How are you, Sarah?

MacDONALD....Good. How are you?

DAMIAN....I'm not too bad.

MacDONALD....So do you hunt?

DAMIAN....No.. well, I don't so much hunt.. I come off a property down in the southern region in New South Wales..


DAMIAN....and, you know, we have a feral kangaroo problem, and we just use it.. we basically go out and shoot them to
control.. you know, damage to our pastures and crops.

MacDONALD....But I suppose they were.. they were here first. Do you feel remorse sometimes?

DAMIAN....I certainly do..


DAMIAN....[unclear]. I mean, I personally feel quite bad when I shoot down an animal, not that I've done it for a couple of
years, but you know, there is a certain degree of remorse for seeing an animal in pain. And you know, being a farmer a lot of
people.. I suppose the greenies, as they say, don't see our side of the.. of the story.

MacDONALD....The fact that it's your livelihood at stake?

DAMIAN....Well, certainly it is, and, you know, there's nothing worse than seeing an animal, whether it be a.. you know, a
cow, or a sheep, or a kangaroo, at that.. in that case.

MacDONALD....Is there any other way you could kill the kangaroos humanely?

DAMIAN....Well, I don't know. I mean, we.. we sort of.. if we maim an animal we try to.. you know, to dispose of it as
quickly as we can, there's no sort of leaving it in the paddock. And I can remember that video that was on on the news, it
must have been a couple of years ago, on A Current Affair, concerning those blokes that were sort of rushing up the side of
fences and just running over animals in general, which you know, portrayed us in a very, very bad way. And I mean, they
were sort of idiots to me. And it really annoyed me that that sort of image is portrayed about, you know, the control of feral

MacDONALD....And when you show remorse, do the others sort of.. the other people you're with.. how do they react?

DAMIAN....Well, I just.. I mean, when I go shooting I basically just shoot with my father and my brothers, or a couple of my
friends down the road, and it's a funny situation in that, you know, we're all hyped up and ready to go, but when.. there's like
this eerie silence when the animal goes down. And I guess it's an unspoken word, like everyone's sort of thinking the same
thing, thinking, "My God, we've just killed an animal that's totally defenceless", but at the end of the day we've had to do it
because it's ruining our livelihood.

MacDONALD....So there's adrenalin for the chase, but there's no thrill of the kill?

DAMIAN....No, I don't get a thrill out of the kill, and I never really have, it's.. it's just one of those things.. like, I don't know
how I deal with it, but I do.

MacDONALD....OK. All right, thanks for your call, Damian.

DAMIAN....Thank you, Sarah.

MacDONALD....Good to hear from you.


MacDONALD....See you later.

Hello, Malcolm.


MacDONALD....You.. you shoot?

MALCOLM....I do indeed.

MacDONALD....What do you shoot?

MALCOLM....Anything that's not native, all the ferals, basically.


MALCOLM....And I can't really categorise it as.. any particular part of it's thrilling, just the satisfaction of getting rid of these
unwanted pests that cause a lot of problems.

MacDONALD....So for you it's sort of a.. an environmental thing, you want to get rid of the pests that are destroying native
vegetation and animals?

MALCOLM....Oh yeah, big time. I can't stand them. And the fact that I use them.. I'd say ninety percent..I sort of don't have
too much stuff from the butcher shop in my freezer, it's mainly what.. what I've got myself, and the rest will be feeding farm
dogs, etcetera, etcetera.

MacDONALD....What, so you eat feral cat and stuff?

MALCOLM....No, no, no, no, no.

MacDONALD....What are you eating?

MALCOLM....Pigs, goats..


MALCOLM....Rabbits, hares, etcetera, etcetera.


MALCOLM....They taste beautiful, a lot better than.. well, things you get from butcher shops, anyway.

MacDONALD....Right. So for you it's about.. it's about the environment, and because you're eating it you feel it's.. you


MALCOLM....Oh, that..


MALCOLM....If I'm nowhere near my vehicle, as in.. you know, many, many hours walk away, and I've shot something, I
feel no remorse in leaving it there. It's not native. It's doing a lot of damage. If any bad diseases, i.e. foot and mouth get into
the country we're pretty stuffed because of the pigs, they'll spread it like wildfire. But if I can get them out, and eat them, I

MacDONALD....You obviously care a lot about native animals. You believe that..

MALCOLM....I love them.

MacDONALD....Yeah, you love them. But do you ever feel sad if you're causing pain to another animal, just because it was
introduced, it wasn't its idea?

MALCOLM....Yes, true, true, true. I can't.. I haven't actually shot anything and wounded it, I suppose.. some people are out
there going, "Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, good one, I don't believe that". But I haven't, because I won't pull the trigger unless it's a
hundred percent.

MacDONALD....You're certain of a quick kill.

MALCOLM....Mm. And you know, I'm going for the head the whole time, and the shock of it they're dead instantly.

MacDONALD....So you're conscious of making it humane. Do you feel excited when you're shooting?

MALCOLM....No, I just feel immense.. no, not when I'm actually shooting, not when I'm walking around, no thrill in killing
the creature. Just the satisfaction, "Oh, look, it's dead, it's not going to rip up any more pasture".


MALCOLM...."Not going to do anymore damage".



MacDONALD....All right. Thanks, Malcolm.

MALCOLM....Thank you.

MacDONALD....So, Catherine, there's.. politics comes into it as well a lot, doesn't it? I mean, here Malcolm, it.. it's a
political thing of getting Australia rid of unwanted pests.

SCHULLER....Oh, yes, pest control is often used by.. as an excuse by hunters, but I mean, it's been proven that hunting is a
highly inefficient means of controlling feral.. feral animals or pest animals.

MacDONALD....So what should be done?

SCHULLER....Well, I mean, you've got to have a proper extermination program, and in vertebrate pest control, they often
start with poisoning, they might use shooting as a mopping up operation. But I mean, with species like rabbits and pigs, that
multiply so quickly, just going out and shooting a few.. I mean, they'll be very quickly replaced. It really has no impact
whatsoever. So that's why I'm always really sceptical about this id.. you know, this idea that they're doing it as pest control.
Because if you talk to the vertebrate pest control people they will tell you straight out that, you know, hunting really has no
impact whatsoever.

MacDONALD....Because everyone wants to help in their own little way. It's like, you know, not driving your car one day a
week, sure, it's not going to help the greenhouse effect that much, but you've got the satisfaction that you're at least trying to
do something..

SCHULLER....I know, but you're doing at the expense of an animal, I mean, there's a cost in welfare and so on to the
animal. I mean, just because they happen.. as you said, because they happen to be pests doesn't mean it gives us licence to
treat them in whatever way we want, you know..

MacDONALD....But isn't a quick kill..

SCHULLER....[unclear]. the head by a bullet, say, of a rabbit, better than giving it myxomatosis, which makes it slow.. die slowly
and in pain?

SCHULLER....Well, first of all I don't think that most hunters would achieve a head kill, you know, a head shot most of the
time, and it's pretty.. pretty hard with an animal that's moving. Sure, if they do do a head shot there will be immediate loss of
consciousness, and it probably is humane. More often they go for a lung shot, or what they call a heart shot, and in that case
the animal, you know, can stagger, or can run quite a long way and eventually die from loss of blood.

MacDONALD....And that's more painful than a virus, or a trap?

SCHULLER....Oh, yes, but.. at least with using poisons.. well, I don't like traps, but poisons and..


SCHULLER....biological control measures, there is that objective of cau.. you know, of control and extermination. But what
hunters want to exterminate pest animals? I mean, it's self defeating, isn't it? And you often find that in these stories hunters
will leave some to seed, or they'll actually shift wild pigs into state forests so that they can sort of perpetuate the feral
population. I mean, these are unscrupulous hunters, but it does exist. So pest control to me is a bit of furphy.

MacDONALD....Lee, how are you today?

CALLER - LEE....Not too bad, thank you, Sarah.

MacDONALD....Now you reckon you've converted some girls?

LEE....Yes, a while ago. Just before I get into some justifications, I could tell you this story. A couple of years ago I had a
mate visit me who had two city girls with him, and along with a bit of camping I thought we'd go out and do some spotlighting,
yeah, shooting, pest control. Both of these girls were pretty classy, private school girls, one of them was a recognised
Adelaide model. And we went out to shoot some kangaroos, and we started out using.. using high powered rifles, and one of
these girls was absolutely petrified, she was crying, and I suggested I will take her back to the camp site and drop her off, and
she said "No", she was too scared of the kangaroos, so she would keep coming with us. And after shooting a few, I
suggested they might have a go. And they.. they had a bit of a shoot, and after about ten minutes or so they got quite into it
and were fighting over who was going to have the next shot, and quite enjoyed the.. the thrill of it all, of killing some
kangaroos. So I found that pretty interesting myself.

MacDONALD....So why did you take them? Was it because you wanted to know if they got into the thrill of shooting like
you did, or was it because you thought it was something that would excite them a bit?


MacDONALD....It's a pretty unusual date. [ Laugh ]

LEE....Yeah, I.. it wasn't actually a date, we had a few other blokes with us, and it was just something we had planned, and
my mate came over with..

MacDONALD....With the girls.

LEE....the girls, so we thought, "Oh, well.." and they were keen to go out camping anyway, so we thought we'd have a bit of
a shoot. And I found it pretty interesting, yeah.

MacDONALD....Yeah. So they got.. you reckon girls are just as much.. could get into it just as much, the whole hook?

LEE....Not so much. They.. they weren't the best shot, and they weren't the ones finishing off the kangaroos, but as for
actually holding a rifle, and the power of the kill, they were.. they were into that, yeah.

MacDONALD....What is it about killing that you like?

LEE....I.. I'd have to disagree with what Catherine said about the pest control. We're shooting up in station country, and we
might shoot a hundred, a hundred and fifty kangaroos in a night, and I think that's pretty.. pretty good pest control. And I'm
able just to switch off to the actual killing. I'd like to think I'm a pretty reasonable shot, and I'm getting.. you know, eighty
percent head kills in a kangaroo. Yeah, I don't have much remorse about doing that.

MacDONALD....Mm. How do you switch off, though? I mean.. you know, I mean, I know you're protecting an economic
livelihood, but the kangaroos have sort of got more right, I suppose, to be here than the cows.

LEE....Yeah, I.. I'd suggest that since European population to this country with all the clearing and the water troughs and
whatever that we put in, that we've quite increased the population of kangaroos, so I don't.. don't think that they're native in
the sense that we're depleting the population of them.. of the original population, they've multiplied a fair bit.

MacDONALD....All right. So you don't enjoy it, though, you see it as a job.

LEE....I actually get more enjoyment out of fox shooting with shotguns, the actually rush and the adrenalin of chasing a fox
down with shotguns. I'd suggest that's a more.. more of a thrill.

MacDONALD....Why is it a thrill?

LEE....Like mountain biking, or hang gliding, or skiing, or anything else, it's.. it's an adrenalin rush, which I guess is more of a
blokey thing than anything else.

MacDONALD....I get the adrenalin rush, but.. I mean, as doing something exciting, but why does it need to have an end
product where something dies and you.. you win?

LEE....I.. I put that down to a power thing, I guess.


LEE....Another male thing, yeah.

MacDONALD....Yeah. So you feel like you're more powerful?

LEE....Yeah. There's a lot of.. there's skill involved in the actual shooting, and being an accurate shooter, which comes with
time and practise, and I think that's involved in the enjoyment of it all as well, being good at your sport.

MacDONALD....And getting better. OK, thanks for your call.

LEE....No worries. OK, see you later.

MacDONALD....See you later, Lee. Catherine, what about in terms of religious attitudes, does that ever affect justifications
of.. of why people hunt, have you found?

SCHULLER....Ooh, that's a curly one.

MacDONALD....[ Laugh ] Because there's.. you know, lots of..

SCHULLER....No, I haven't..

MacDONALD....pretty religious.. I mean, you've studied American magazines, and there's extreme..

SCHULLER....Well, hunters are sort of.. tend to be more conservative, and in America, you know, it's always the God..
God given right to hunt.

MacDONALD....And have a gun, yeah.

SCHULLER....Yes, so Christianity has sort of in some ways supported hunting, and I got a beautiful defence of hunting by a..
Christian defence of hunting, you know, the idea..

MacDONALD....[ Unclear ]

SCHULLER....Oh well, the idea that man has dominion over animals, so that.. you know, it's OK to go ahead and do it, and
if they're pest animals, well, you know, that's OK.

MacDONALD....Because God put us up the top?




MacDONALD....OK. All right. And let's finish up, say, with Paul. Hi, Paul.

CALLER - PAUL....How are you going?

MacDONALD....Good. What did you want to say?

PAUL....Well, I guess initially what I wanted to talk about was.. we're talking probably a culture here in Australia that's been
around for.. since we've arrived here, and we've had some talk.. you know, callers that have talked about, you know,
shooting kangaroos and things like that. And there has.. there has.. pest control in those kangaroos, and things like that. And I
don't agree now after twenty-odd years of shooting that that is a viable thing. I think more towards the pest control is what..
well, Catherine opposes. But the pest control.. I come from an outdoor ed program now, and I run outdoor ed programs
with lots and lots of kids every year, and to see the feral populations increasing, and also the increasing damage that they do
to our natural wildlife and things like that, is quite disturbing. Especially when you're walking along with a group of, say, Year
8 girls, and you come across, you know, like a nice bower bird, and you find its head just gone, which is a telltale sign from a
cat eating it.

MacDONALD....Mm. A feral cat?


MacDONALD....Yeah, so for you it is very much.. you know, survival of the best animals, with our help?

PAUL....Well, it does happen, you know, and I disagree with Catherine in the sense that she says that we don't have an
impact as shooters on the feral populations, I really disagree with that, in that.. you know, if we stopped.. if the.. if it stops,
that us hunters don't get out there and have an impact.. we do have an impact, whether it's a small impact or whether it's a
large impact, we do have an impact on controlling the feral populations that are there.

MacDONALD....And is it just about that for you, Paul, or do you feel it's an important ancient ritual? You said we've had it
in Australia for.. you know, since..

PAUL....Well, it's..

MacDONALD....white settlement.

PAUL....I guess it's a lot of both, Sarah, and that's.. you know, I brought.. I was brought up on farms, and used to shoot a lot
of foxes, and I used to shoot them for money, for pocket money when I was a kid.


PAUL....You know, I used to shoot this.. and skin them, you know, and I think if Catherine was to really sort of do her
research that she would go out there and not just go rabbit hunting. Rabbit hunting is completely different to a lot of different
other things. And then her research would really need to be not just on American magazines and the sensali.. sensalisation
[sic] that they do have with it, that really what she would look at is in the culture that she is now talking about, and that is

MacDONALD....Yeah, OK. So, Catherine, you have been hunting in Australia? Do you..

SCHULLER....Yeah, in my defence..
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Old September 6, 1999, 09:28 AM   #2
Bruce from West Oz
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Join Date: February 26, 1999
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(The last couple of paras)

MacDONALD....What about the Australian literature?

SCHULLER....Oh, well, that's.. I think he has misheard me. The magazines I did consult were Australian magazines,

MacDONALD....Oh, they were all Australian?



SCHULLER....Yes. And my research was about the ethics of hunting, and I think, you know, that I wasn't.. I'm not
appointing myself as a sort of.. the expert on hunting, but I'm discussing the arguments that are being used.

MacDONALD....Sure. OK. So.. I mean, in your view is there any ethical arguments for hunting, such as the one that Paul's
put up, about.. you know, the unethical nature of feral cats killing our native animals.

SCHULLER....Well, I think that's a really dangerous rationale, it's sort of a Fascist rationale because it's scapegoating these
animals because they.. they don't please us for some reason, they're some.. you know, we think of them as being bad,
therefore that justifies what we do to them. And I.. I still maintain that this idea of pest control is an excuse that hunters use,
and perhaps that's one way that they can justify what they do to themselves.

MacDONALD....Mm. What about the ancient ritual, you know, argument, that it's something that.. you know, man has done
since.. for forty thousand years or something?

SCHULLER....Yes, well, I think it's time that.. you know, we reassessed behaviours according to what is.. what is sort of
useful and appropriate to society today, and I think that hunting.. hunting is no longer appropriate.

MacDONALD....All right. Well, thanks for your time today, it's been good to talk to you. And thanks to everybody that called in, I'm sorry I couldn't get to everyone. We've talked to quite a few hunters over the last forty-five minutes on Triple J.

We've been talking about hunting with Catherine Schuller, who has done a thesis on hunting.
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Old September 6, 1999, 09:30 AM   #3
Bruce from West Oz
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Join Date: February 26, 1999
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 274
And here's Professor David Bellamy's short, succinct summation of her thesis ......


The SSAA sought out Professor David Bellamy while he was in Australia.

He was asked to comment on recent media reports including the Catherine Schuller thesis on the ethics of hunting.

A question was put to him:

David, when you come across someone who describes animal management practices such as pest hunting, and I quote, as
"sort of a fascist rationale because it is scapegoating these animals",

what’s your reaction to that?

This is his response:

Well, those people don’t really know what they’re talking about.

You could say Australia’s going to turn into a place like the British Isles with very, very little left in the way of any thing natural
at all, and even then we have to manage it to keep our wildlife going. We have to get rid of feral animals - or it’s going to
collapse and people won’t live there. I don’t believe especially in places like Australia that people can live here on their own
with green concrete.

In Britain if you want to see all the animals and plants that should be there you go to a well managed hunting estate, so to me a
good gamekeeper is the best news the environment has got and he should be lauded. They’re the heroes of the countryside. .
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Old September 7, 1999, 06:34 PM   #4
Big Bunny
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Join Date: August 9, 1999
Location: New South Wales - Australia
Posts: 605
Good one Bruce, bet this one fails to confuse them in US about how crazy (EG after the Gunz Buyback etc) they now KNOW we in OZ are!

***Big Bunny***
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Old September 11, 1999, 05:35 PM   #5
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Join Date: June 5, 1999
Location: N47º 12’ x W122º 10'
Posts: 1,598
"My God, we've just killed an animal that's totally defenceless"

Please to be passing me the puke bucket.

“The whole of the Bill (of Rights) is a declaration of the right of the people at large or considered as individuals. ... It establishes some rights of the individual as unalienable and which consequently, no majority has a right to deprive them of.” -Alexander Addison, 1789
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