The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old March 11, 2005, 02:50 PM   #76
Senior Member
Join Date: February 22, 2005
Posts: 154
You people are debating all the wrong facts!

My question is simply this:

Who freed Mumia and why the hell did they make him a federal agent?!?
Maddog_Enigma is offline  
Old March 12, 2005, 10:40 AM   #77
Join Date: October 14, 2004
Location: Ma
Posts: 64
How could you be so bold. I alluded in a previous thread that this individual did not act like a DEA special agent. One must possess a bachelor's degree just for openers.Many other qualifications. ABU- Jamal look alike did not appear professional before he shot himself. Probably beating a dead horse. Thanks for having the stones to step into deaper waters.Haskell
haskell is offline  
Old March 12, 2005, 12:01 PM   #78
DT Guy
Senior Member
Join Date: February 4, 2001
Posts: 811
What's truly frightening is that this fellow REMAINS in a position where he is bound to be pointing loaded weapons at suspects...if he can shoot himself with an 'unloaded' gun, imagine what he can do with a loaded one!

He who fights and runs away had better run pretty damn fast.

Government, Anarchy and Chaos
DT Guy is offline  
Old March 12, 2005, 12:16 PM   #79
4V50 Gary
Join Date: November 2, 1998
Location: Colorado
Posts: 19,338
At least the kids didn't fill their pants. No one ran out of the room screaming and no SWAT team stormed in. Holy Cows. What a nightmare that officer is having right now. A shooting review board, time on the beach (without pay), retraining.
Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. Molon Labe!
4V50 Gary is offline  
Old March 12, 2005, 02:33 PM   #80
Senior Member
Join Date: March 11, 2005
Posts: 3,203
I'm certain that almost all of you who said you've never had an ND are lying... Noctural Discharge! Just kidding. I had to throw that in there.

As for FFl who seems to be bashing the Glocks, the dumb butt in the video would have shot himself with just about ANYTHING. For your 1911 example, he had dropped the slide on a loaded magazine, he was holding the gun as if he was ready to shoot it and would have released the a grip safety, and he pulled the trigger. Please blame the stupidity and carelessness of the officer and not the weapon. Even the squeeze cock H&K P7 would have gone off in that circumstance and most would have to agree that is one of the inherently safest pistols made. Thats my $.02 worth anyways.
The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency!
stephen426 is offline  
Old March 12, 2005, 03:37 PM   #81
Senior Member
Join Date: January 20, 2005
Location: Wilmington DE
Posts: 291
Thats why I carry a revolver, you know its loaded from looking at it on the outside. Not that I would pull the trigger on my 1911 to see if its loaded, but revolvers are pretty idiot proof. I dont know about this idiot though.
S&W340PD w/ lg-305 CT grips
S&W 1911PD commander w/ CT grips (on order, any day now!!)

Imagination is more important than knowledge. -- Albert Einstein
My band's website: daughter darling
snacktrack is offline  
Old March 12, 2005, 06:55 PM   #82
Senior Member
Join Date: February 12, 2005
Posts: 502
Actually, I think HE KNEW the weapon was loaded,....with a dummy load. The "accidental" discharge of the weapon was meant to educate the attendants, mostly kids, on how easily things can go wrong pretty damn quick when handling a firearm.

Just my opinion.
los is offline  
Old March 13, 2005, 05:46 PM   #83
bad shot
Junior Member
Join Date: January 12, 2005
Location: florida
Posts: 6
i am not reading all this.

i just want to say that a glock is a gun you pull the trigger to decock
i think he thought he was decocking the gun.
other guns you never have to pull the trigger to decock.
a glock you can not take apart to clean with out pulling the trigger to decock.
bad shot is offline  
Old March 13, 2005, 10:36 PM   #84
Senior Member
Join Date: July 6, 2004
Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma
Posts: 1,443
I have to agree, it does look staged. In any case it doesn't change the fact that this idiot just made a bunch of anti-gunners with the idea that guns can't even be handled correctly by proffesionals much less your average citizen.

After watching the video again I noticed that he drops the gun and the lady showing the ar-15 at the end goes behind him and not only picks op the gun, but the casing that a student hands her as she goes to the other side of the room.

After showing the video to my mom I think it might actually be real, he keeps saying "listen to me" after he shoots himself even though he has their attention. Shock? or maybe he is just trying to focus on something other than the pain.
"The SKS is a rifle, made the way they should be, out of a heavy block of crappy commie steel, set in an inletted semi-reshaped 2x4."

Not my quote but I agree completely.
rugerdude is offline  
Old March 13, 2005, 11:29 PM   #85
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Posts: 60
Shooting oneself

I was right behind an LAPD officer about 23 years ago. He drew, shot himself in the leg on the draw, and started going "oww, oww". Very painful experience. Very embarrassing. I was very happy that he had not shot me or anyone elese.

The most important thing that you learn from the video that is unrelated to safety is that a pistol round is not necessarily effective to bring a person down. Whenever some computer ninja starts into 9mm vs. .45acp or .223 vs. .308, the ninja should be directed to this video. Shot placement is critically more important.
bdc is offline  
Old March 14, 2005, 03:20 AM   #86
Senior Member
Join Date: March 11, 2005
Posts: 3,203

Your reasoning for the accident occuring is rediculous. What does having to pull the trigger to "decock" a Glock have anything to do with it being unsafe? Glock are only half way cocked when ready to fire and there is a firing pin saety. Pulling of the trigger cocks the trigger the remaineder of the way and then releases the firing pin safety. The only reason to dry fire the Glock is to strip it. The first step is to REMOVE the magazine and ENSURE THE CHAMBER IS EMPTY.

The cop in the video was careless and a total moron based on the things he was saying. He got what he deserved for talking so much crap about his qualifications.

If you don't know what you are talking about, please look it up before you make yourself look like an ignorANUS (read as dumbass).
The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency!
stephen426 is offline  
Old March 14, 2005, 07:10 AM   #87
Junior Member
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Western North Dakota
Posts: 6
Man, You have got to be kidding to do a presentation with live rounds in a Magazine in a classroom in the first place. Anyone hear of snap caps? Take a few live rounds and pass them thru the class, but use plastic snap caps to show how a firearm mechanicaly functions, then if some jerk "jerks the trigger" snap no bang. I mean how hard is the above to do? Its how I teach my nieces and nephews about guns.

Halt! Trespassers will be shot--Survivors will be shot again!
PowderBurner is offline  
Old March 14, 2005, 09:39 AM   #88
Join Date: November 19, 2004
Posts: 18
I love how he asks for the other person to hand him the rifle, its obvious that his leg hurts so bad that he doesnt want to move, but his stupid ego wont let him shut his big yap and get medical attention
edgeofhell is offline  
Old March 14, 2005, 09:46 AM   #89
too many choices!?
Senior Member
Join Date: December 19, 2004
Posts: 371
Derius T is missing the point on this one guys.....

How many times have you on purpose cussed in front of little kids, drank in front of kids, had sex in front of kid? I hope none ! Why, because when you go before little people who are impressionable you go onto even highter alert because kids are impressionable, duh......This guy is by far not perfect and nobody is but, there where too many bad choices made in this situation to be considered anything but negligence on the verge of insanity......

too many choices!? is offline  
Old March 14, 2005, 06:45 PM   #90
Para Bellum
Senior Member
Join Date: January 7, 2005
Location: right there
Posts: 1,869
dropped a glock and .....

A LEO in my state dropped a glock and grazed a kids cheek! Whats goin on?
That's hard to believe. Glocks are designed to be 100% drop-safe. Are you sure this isn't just a story?
Si vis pacem - para bellum
If you want peace - prepare for war
Para Bellum is offline  
Old March 14, 2005, 08:27 PM   #91
Senior Member
Join Date: March 14, 2005
Location: Washougal, Washington. YEHAW!
Posts: 1,872
That's hard to believe. Glocks are designed to be 100% drop-safe. Are you sure this isn't just a story?
Safties are made by humans. Humans are not perfect. One of the things I was always taught was that safties DO FAIL.
Romans 12:21

Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good

More CZ M52 info than you can shake a stick at!
jonathon is offline  
Old March 14, 2005, 11:46 PM   #92
Senior Member
Join Date: November 29, 2004
Location: South West OHIO (boondocks)
Posts: 1,337
too many choices.

No, I'm not missing the point. I already said in previous posts that he was an idiot for even having live rounds, and that the should never be allowed to demonstrate firearms again without some severe training. BUT, while boneheaded, it was still an accident. I'm sure he had absolutely no intention of shooting himself, or frightening those children. Should he be punished, yes. Should he be sent to the leper colony, no......
Derius_T is offline  
Old March 15, 2005, 10:03 AM   #93
too many choices!?
Senior Member
Join Date: December 19, 2004
Posts: 371
Derius..Point taken,

I still believe there were too many choices of the stupid variety for this to be punished with a slap on the wrist
too many choices!? is offline  
Old March 15, 2005, 02:30 PM   #94
Senior Member
Join Date: November 14, 1998
Posts: 124
Heck, I couldn't read through the entire list of replies on this one, but I noticed from a page or two that nobody mentioned this - in giving a demonstration like this, especially in front of children, in a school, the use of practice (snapcaps/etc) ammunition should've been used with an entirely different handgun other than the officers. It would have been more professional to have brought in another gun (prop) with a separate magazine loaded with inert, practice cartridges. This would have enabled the officer to have completed the entire demonstration without - (1) creating a dangerous situation for a discharge when clearing his own weapon (2) handling live ammunition not on a range (3) having him unload his own personal handgun.
There was simply no reason for this to have been done. These things are most likely planned well in advance, and an instructor worth his title should have the appropriate props and tools to do his job safely.
EricO is offline  
Old March 15, 2005, 03:06 PM   #95
Senior Member
Join Date: October 12, 2004
Location: PDR of MA
Posts: 164
Well, we all know that he broke all four of Jeff Cooper's four rules, and he had no business bringing ANY live ammo into the classroom except maybe in his BUG, which should remain concealed. Show & tell with firearms belongs on the range, with guns pointed downrange and and students behind the firing line.

However, while we are talking about how dumb this guy is, I would like to point out a few things which in no way contradict the fact that he screwed up at least five times all at once in order to make this happen.

First, let's look at this guy's hair. What does it tell us? I think it tells us that this guy doesn't wear a uniform, and that he carries a gun to stay alive in an environment very few sane people would volunteer to expose themselves to. If he ever displays his gun in that environment, which seems quite possible, I doubt that he does it in a style which would mark him as a part-time range officer. In fact, if he had that style, I'll bet he'd work to get rid of it.

Once he screwed up, he did a remarkable job of keeping calm and trying to keep his audience calm. He even added a little humor when he asked for another gun. Unintentional humor, I guess.

I would be very interested to know what instruction he received for this assignment, other than "Go talk to these kids about drugs and guns." My wife actually couldn't believe that he was that stupid - she thought he was set up, somehow. Only when i explained to her that there was some chance that the DEA was as big a bunch of ****ups as some of the BATmen did she accept the idea that this was really an accident.

As a retired mustang (O, former E), I look immediately to whoever sent this guy out on an assignment obviously way over his head. BTW, just how good an agency can that be, that their handpicked representative breaks ALL the rules at once while doing a demo for kids? I would suspect that gun-handling is sloppy throughout at least that office, and probably the whole agency.

This good guy (let's not forget that) screwed up big time, but he was not alone.

Everyone has one; there's mine.

Model520Fan is offline  
Old March 16, 2005, 03:26 AM   #96
Join Date: October 13, 2001
Posts: 3,302
Here's a collection of various versions of the video, along with the original orlando sun article and a cursory set of links:

I'd really like to know the result of the DEA investigation, but there doesn't seem to be anything on it. They must have hushed it up.
“The egg hatched...” “...the egg hatched... and a hundred baby spiders came out...” (blade runner)
“Who are you?” “A friend. I'm here to prevent you from making a mistake.” “You have no idea what I'm doing here, friend.” “In specific terms, no, but I swore an oath to protect the world...” (continuum)
“It's a goal you won't understand until later. Your job is to make sure he doesn't achieve the goal.” (bsg)
tyme is offline  
Old March 16, 2005, 08:09 AM   #97
Senior Member
Join Date: February 22, 2005
Posts: 267
"They must have hushed it up."

It is frightening the way the article that it written does not match up at all with the video...
jburtonpdx is offline  
Old March 16, 2005, 01:44 PM   #98
Junior member
Join Date: May 31, 2004
Location: The Toll Road State, U.S.A.
Posts: 12,451
You're right, burton:

During the speech, the agent drew his .40-caliber duty weapon and removed the magazine, the report said.
The report can say that, but he didn't, at least not BEFORE racking it. If he had, he wouldn't have shot himself.

He then pulled back the slide and asked a man in the audience to look inside the weapon to make sure it was not loaded, the report said.
"The person nodded that it didn't have ammunition," Farmer recounted.
So now it's this audience member's fault? It WAS clear, UNTIL the agent loaded it by dropping the slide on a loaded mag.

"The gun was never pointed at anyone."
I guess they means besides himself. Otherwise, how did he end up shot?

Witnesses told police that the agent kept his gun pointed toward the floor
OK, but with his leg in between.

and when he released the slide, the weapon fired one shot into the top of his thigh.
No, when he pulled the trigger that happened, which did in fact happen after he released the slide, but not "when" he did.

Preachin to the choir...but to his credit, he remained calm and is a tough mutha.
FirstFreedom is offline  
Old March 16, 2005, 10:46 PM   #99
Junior member
Join Date: January 12, 2002
Location: USA
Posts: 1,191
TheeBadOne is offline  
Old March 16, 2005, 10:57 PM   #100
Senior Member
Join Date: January 23, 2005
Posts: 126
How may times will this thing be posted?
pamick is offline  

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:56 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2016 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent:
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.21709 seconds with 7 queries