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Old February 3, 2005, 02:05 AM   #1
Twycross
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Rifle silencers

Lets say that I created a home-made silencer and stuck it on my .270
First, how well would it work?
And second, is it legal for someone under 21? Or legal at all? This is in Idaho, not the Peoples Republic of California :barf:
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Old February 3, 2005, 02:17 AM   #2
NH AR Shooter
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Its a Federal crime.

If you go through the ATF, pay the fee, wait 6 months or so, and if its legal in your state, then you can do it. I dont know about under 21.

All a silencer/suppressor will do is reduce the muzzle blast somewhat, there will still be a loud crack from the bullets sonic boom.

Last edited by NH AR Shooter; February 3, 2005 at 06:20 AM.
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Old February 3, 2005, 10:09 AM   #3
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Also, most game regs prevent hunting with silencers, full auto, laser sights, etc.
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Old February 3, 2005, 11:23 AM   #4
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Silencers (ie. supressors) are regulated under the National Firearms Act (NFA) but completely legal under federal law IF properly registered and tax paid. Some states have prohibitions against NFA weapons, but if yours doesn't you can either make or buy one legally once you are 21. If you obtain one illegally, its a felony under federal law and probably also under your state's law too. And let me assure you, BATF doesn't have much of a sense of humor when it comes to unregistered supressors or other NFA weapons.

IIRC Idaho is a class 3 state and allows supressors. I think Gem-tech is based in Boise - one of the best supressor manufacturers on the planet, and they are very loyal to their civilian customers. If you're considering getting a supressor, I would highly recommend checking out Gem-tech (www.gem-tech.com). Doc Dater, the president is a great guy and has a stellar reputation for customer service.

The process is fairly simple for buying or making a supressor. You need to contact your friendly local class 3 dealer, or BATF and get TWO FBI fingerprint cards, TWO BATF form 4 (to buy from an instate seller) or TWO BATF form1 (to make your own), and ONE US Citizenship certification form.

Complete the form 4s or form 1s (examples which you can actually download and use can be found at www.titleii.com) EXCEPT for the Law Enforcement Crtification on the back of the form. Make an appointment with your sheriff, chief of police, or another one of the authorized individuals designated on the instruction sheet to sign the certification, fingerprint you, and get two passport size photos on the forms. Send everything to the NFA Branch of BATF at the address listed on the form, along with a check for $200 for the making/transfer tax due. In 3-4 months you should receive a copy of the approved form 1, or your dealer/seller should receiver a copy of the approved form 4. At that point you can take possession of the supressor, or START to build your own.

Since you're talking about a rifle caliber supressor, I would highly recommend you buy one from a reputable manufcturer like Gemtech. The transfer/making tax is due whether you buy or make it, so if you make a crappy one yourself that doesn't work, you've pissed away $200. Additionally, the pressures generated in a rifle caliber supressor can cause the supressor to blow off the end of the rifle or blow up (especially if your baffle stack is not properly aligned) and could injure both your gun and you, and possibly other shooters. Making a supressor is not something for the novice, especially when its for a rifle caliber.
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Old February 3, 2005, 02:55 PM   #5
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Thanks for the info, guys. I was looking for a project, but I guess I will have to look in a different direction. Glad I asked before starting anything.
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Old February 3, 2005, 03:52 PM   #6
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Right, and as Mr. Weaver learned the hard way, the batmen *especially* don't like Idahoans exercising their right to keep and bear arms without infringment (like registration).
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Old February 3, 2005, 03:58 PM   #7
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Quote:
Thanks for the info, guys. I was looking for a project, but I guess I will have to look in a different direction. Glad I asked before starting anything.
You might try starting with something small - like a .22 supressor. I've bought two different .22 'cans' and they are great fun. Ammo is cheap, and if you use a good subsonic load, they are VERY quiet. Additionally, the pressures aren't so high that you're likely to have any problems. Many .22 cans are made of aluminum - Gem-tech's little Outback is all aluminum IIRC. The $200 transfer/making tax is still due no matter what caliber, but if you have the ability and a decent lathe/mill/drill, you could build yourself a nice .22 can quite cheaply.
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Old February 3, 2005, 09:43 PM   #8
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home made

i shouldnt admit to this but i built a silencer for my .22 semi-auto it was a very simple crude thing but quite effective except i had to re stuff it with rags every few rounds to keep it quiet. didnt bother to use it other than try it because it was more or less useless
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Old February 4, 2005, 12:12 AM   #9
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Don't be scared away from buying a suppressor because of anything said on a on-line forum. I have read countless threads where they made it out to be some huge big deal.
It isn't.
And, it isn't expensive.
A suppressor is a very practical firearm accessory and well worth the money.
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Old February 4, 2005, 01:00 AM   #10
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Thanks for the advice. I was interested in a silencer, but not $200+ interested. And if its not going to work that well, then I may as well do something else. For $200 I could buy another gun . Besides, right now, I am still a month under 18.
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Old February 4, 2005, 01:43 AM   #11
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ok i have a few questions on this subject...

1. is Origon a Class 3???
2. Can you buy the parts to make a supressor mainly i'm just thinking of the barrel *if thats applicaple* i'm not excatly sure how a supressor is made but i will voice my thoughts lower...
3. does the class 1 form allow you to buy silancers after the fact??

Ok i think that about covers it

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Old February 4, 2005, 01:57 AM   #12
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1: To answer your first question:
http://www.mp5.net/info/sbsconr.htm
according to this link, it is.
2)I don't have any experience with silencers, but as shaggy said, a suppressor is a fine tuned instrument, especially when you are dealing with a round moving at over 2500 fps. If you really want a suppressor, buy a real one from a reputable manufacturer, cause unless you are really handy (or an engineer), and have a cnc mill lying around, your suppressor will probably not be that good (five years from now you'll be in gun history for inventing the most efficient type of suppressor to date, knowing life). But seriously, building a suppressor isn't as easy as buying the parts and putting one together (since no one that i know of sells parts kits).

3)Not sure what you are asking? Do you mean register silencers after you make them, or pay the tax, and then buy your sliencer when your funds have recovered.


Again, i suggest saving up and buying a professionally made one. And yes, the professional guys can do all sorts of nifty stuff to your gun barrel to make it suppressed (integrally suppressed firearms are sweet, but you can't move the suppressor around)
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Old February 4, 2005, 06:12 AM   #13
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How about an Integral Sound um, Lessen'or? I've been looking for a muzzle brake to lessen recoil without the resulting blast for years. I've talked to shooters with brakes like Vais etc. but they still arn't effective enough to dampen the muzzle blast of a magnum hunting rifle. I'd sketched out a few ideas but I kept running into a wall, if it's too effective at reducing blast then it might be classsified as a suppressor and get me into trouble. Then a few months back I see this, exactly like one of my ideas. My sketch was of a regular muzzle brake with a expansion chamber around it, and ports to keep it from being too effective at sound suppression. I assume the feds have signed off on this one so it might just fill the bill. It shows how easily one could be built if your not trying to get truly silent.

http://ruger-mini-14-firearms.com/ Bottom of the home page, Integral Recoil System.

Maybe someone who's computer wiser than I am can shrink and post the pic.

Anarx, yes in Orygun you can use a legal suppressor while hunting.
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Old February 4, 2005, 06:42 AM   #14
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Quote:
i shouldnt admit to this but ...
It's perfectly safe to admit to criminal activity here on the internet. Not a problem, as Law Enforcement folks don't use computers.

But, it appears you are in a country outside the focus of the BATFe. Are silencers regulated in Canada as they are in the U.S.? It seems like the attitude toward silencers is very different in other locales.

Regards.
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Old February 4, 2005, 08:37 AM   #15
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Quote:
How about an Integral Sound um, Lessen'or?
During the later part of the Vietnam War, Colt introduced the XM177, an M16 with collapsing stock and 11.5" barrel. A long flash-hider with an expansion chamber took an unbearably loud rifle and lowered it to regular rifle volume. In the 1970's, BATF (in their infinite wisdom) classified it a "sound suppressor", based on the amount of decibels it reduced the sound. Never mind the fact that the rifle still sounded like a rifle.

You have to be careful with the "sound lessen'ors", too.
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Old February 4, 2005, 10:21 AM   #16
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Quote:
During the later part of the Vietnam War, Colt introduced the XM177, an M16 with collapsing stock and 11.5" barrel. A long flash-hider with an expansion chamber took an unbearably loud rifle and lowered it to regular rifle volume. In the 1970's, BATF (in their infinite wisdom) classified it a "sound suppressor", based on the amount of decibels it reduced the sound. Never mind the fact that the rifle still sounded like a rifle.

You have to be careful with the "sound lessen'ors", too.
This is absolutely correct. The XM177 moderator was found to only reduce the sound by about 1-2 decibels (and for a general frame of reference I think a 20" barreled M16 produces something around 160 decibels). BATF still found this amount of sound reduction sufficient to regulate the moderator as a silencer/suppressor.

Quote:
1. is Origon a Class 3???
I believe so.

Quote:
2. Can you buy the parts to make a supressor mainly i'm just thinking of the barrel *if thats applicaple* i'm not excatly sure how a supressor is made but i will voice my thoughts lower...
As far as I'm aware, you cannot but a suppressor "parts kit" and assemble it yourself. You can get a threaded barrel, but thats about it. BATF/NFA had a long standing rule that suppressor parts were to be regulated as complete suppressors. This stemmed from the statutory definition of a "Silencer" in the US Code:

18 USC 921 (a)(24) The terms “firearm silencer” and “firearm muffler” mean any device for silencing, muffling, or diminishing the report of a portable firearm, including any combination of parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for use in assembling or fabricating a firearm silencer or firearm muffler, and any part intended only for use in such assembly or fabrication.


I've heard rumors BATF/NFA has relaxed this rule, but I've not seen anything to verify it. This was much more of a problem years ago when suppressor designs were mostly made with disposable rubber "wipes". Instead of a metal baffle stack, there would be a series of round rubber discs inside the "can". The first bullet would cut a hole through the wipes and the successive rounds would follow. The wipes would act sort of as a curtain that would 'close' somewhat after each round went through, thus slowing and containing the gasses. Problem was, those wipes would quickly wear out after a couple dozen rounds went through and the sound levels would quickly rise after that. Then you needed to either make a new set of wipes (you couldn't have spare wipes laying around as that would constitute another suppressor) or you needed to send the can out to a licensed manufacturer to replace the wipes. A real PITA. Fortunately we're long past that stage of suppressor development and most are now made with a permanent metal baffle stack.

Quote:
3. does the class 1 form allow you to buy silancers after the fact??
Nope, you have to file a new form 1 for each suppressor you want to make, or another form 4 for each one you want to buy...and that includes an additional $200 tax for each. If you ever get tired of it and want to sell it, there is yet another $200 tax due to transfer the suppressor to a new owner.
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Old February 4, 2005, 11:52 AM   #17
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Back in the early 80's, when I first started attending Gun Shows, suppressor parts kits were pretty common. If you had a registered tube, you could buy the kits and rebuild them. I don't know if any were ever sold to anyone who didn't have a registered tube.

But it has been a LOOOOONG time since I've seen any. Actually, though they are fairly straight-forward to build. I have been recently into paintball, and there have been a couple of cases where woods players actually got into trouble for building them for markers. Seems if they will fit on a firearm and suppress it, even a little, they are still regulated (even though made for a paintball marker).
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Old February 4, 2005, 08:23 PM   #18
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I've forgotten

whether it was a federal regulation, or NY state law, I was reading...But it defined a suppressor as any device that reduced the sound signature by even 1 decibel...
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Old February 5, 2005, 05:05 AM   #19
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Odd deal..in Canada there are no laws or regulations on supressiors...anyone can order one in the mail..now having a gun so you can use one on thats another story. Oh and yes Oregon is a NFA state.
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Old February 5, 2005, 06:00 AM   #20
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Its weird, but in France (of all places!) suppressors are not only legal, but encouraged by the govenment, so as to cut down on noise complaints.
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Old February 5, 2005, 02:22 PM   #21
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Quote:
in France (of all places!)
Not really. The French are actually as far as I understand quite serious about their personal liberty. Not everything French is bad, you know, just because their politicians sometimes disagree with your politicians. Heck, judging by your language, you guys wouldn't even know how to kiss if the French hadn't taught you...

Some of you may find it more surprising that the British government encourages use of suppressors for the same reasons. British gun laws are more restrictive than in France or just about any other civilized country I can think of. Suppressors are subject to licencing and registration, but I did read a departemental paper of some sort where British hunters and farmers were encouraged to use suppressors to cut down on "noise polution".

Of course, laws are not meant to be sensible or logical, regardless of country. In Finland suppressors are legal and unrestricted, but as I understand it not legal for hunting. In Sweden they are legal for hunting, but almost impossible to get due to all the hoops one has to jump through to get a licence. In Norway, and I think France and Switzerland(?), suppressors are sold over the counter and legal for hunting.

Suppressors for rifle calibers are increasingly popular, not just for the noise reduction but also because they eliminate muzzle blast and reduce felt recoil more effectively than a muzzle brake.
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Old February 5, 2005, 03:14 PM   #22
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In France, silencers are unrestricted, everybody can buy a Sten suppressor for exemple,even if a citizen can not legally own an SMG ( because it's an FA weapon ).
( it's illogical , but it's the law )
I don't really know the legislation for hunting, I don't think that suppressors are allowed for the hunt.
For the Switzerland, suppressors legislation is harder as the french legislation.

I am in disagree with the politics of the french government, because they sign the schengen agreement, applies a part of it ( semi auto restriction ) and keep old law of 1939 under military caliber ( on this side they don't apply the schengen agreement )

results : for the respect of the law we can see Mosin Nagant in 300 WM caliber ( it's not a joke ) and other dangerous firearms in this style.
Worst it is that everybody ( who isn't a shooter ) finds that normal
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Old February 5, 2005, 04:22 PM   #23
3 weelin geezer
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Can it be disassembled for regular cleaning or is it sealed for 'life' and how long can that life be expected before the baffles break or corrode to the point of being useless if it isn't thoroughly cleaned like cleaning the bore of the gun it quiets?

I have also been considering an integral suppressor for a mark II. How is that type cleaned if its part of the barrel? Is the whole upper dipped in solvent or brushed with a bore brush or what?
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Old February 5, 2005, 04:28 PM   #24
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In many, not sure if all, European countries it is actually encouraged to use "silencers" to hunt with and to shoot in general. Something to do with keeping the noise down to:

1) not disturb neighbors and those around you. Especially at shooting ranges.

2) not to spook game---Obviously

3) Less damage to the shooter's and their hunting partner's hearing.

As for making your own there are several books about this available. I'm not sure if Paladin Press Silencer manuals are available in Canada or even if they are able to ship to Canada but they are pretty interesting to read.

If they are illegal let me know and I'll smuggle a crapload of them in for you for only $200.00 each,
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Old February 5, 2005, 09:27 PM   #25
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3 weelin geezer: This page will answer some of your questions. http://www.advancedarmament.com/faq.asp

I am currently waiting on my tax stamps for the "Phoenix pistol" and "Phoenix Rifle". As you will see if you look around that website a little bit, the Phoenix pistol is a Ruger Mk. II with an integral suppressor. http://www.advancedarmament.com/prod...e/phoenixp.asp
Here is the page that tells you how to maintain the suppressor:http://www.advancedarmament.com/faq/fphoenixp.asp

Long story short, all the suppressors I have played with are sealed. You clean them by soaking the whole thing in a solvent such as laquer thinner. If you click on the various rifle suppressors offered by this company they dont' give a life span because no one has worn one out yet. The "baffles" are actually a baffle stack: it is all machined out of one piece.
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How the British Regulars fired and fled,
How the farmers gave them ball for ball,
From behind each fence and farmyard wall,
Chasing the redcoats down the lane,
Then crossing the fields to emerge again
Under the trees at the turn of the road,
And only pausing to fire and load.
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