Shotgun Stopping Power?

[Para Bellum]

Many people state that all handguns are not reliable when it comes to stopping power, regardless of whether it's a .22, 9mm, .45, .44 Mag., .50 or whatever caliber.

But are shotguns real stoppers and the one solution for home defense then? Any trustworthy data or tests out there?

Thanks and stay safe.

[mathman]

...uh...yeah. you might hear of someone getting up after a double tap to the torso with a handgun...but i've never heard of such a thing with a shotgun. simply put...the shotgun is the best short range home defense weapon. of course i am not taking into consideration the damage that it does to your home as well, but it will take care of the intruder...no doubt.

(of course i am assuming that it is loaded with 00 buck, 1 buck or 4 buck)

[Dfariswheel]

The shotgun is VERY effective.
One reason is, the typical pistol fires a bullet weighing 125 to 230 GRAINS .
The shotgun fires a load of shot weighing 1 1/8 OUNCES.

While a bullet punches one hole, the shotgun makes many holes, increasing the chances of piercing vital organs.

While NOTHING, not even a shotgun is 100% as a pure "stopper", the shotgun is the deadliest weapon in the world, AT SHORT RANGE.

It is NOT a "super weapon" but it is a prime home defense gun.

Here's some shotgun data:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm

[Lycanthrope]

See above.

That pretty much sums it up.

[Dwight55]

Para Bellum, . . . Just do the math: 1 ounce = 437.5 grains

If you have a big old 230 grain handgun slug hitting you at say 900 feet per second, . . .

And the other guy got hit with 492 grains of lead (that is a 1 1/8 oz rifled deer slug) at say 900 fet per second, . . .

Which do you figure to get hurt the worst?

Yes, . . . a million times over, . . . at close range, the shotgun is undoubtedly one of the most formidible of normal citizen weaponry.

I had one in my sign shop several years back that was a double barrel 12 ga. It would lay the 18 pellets (both barrels fired at the same time) in a pattern that was generally 18 inches wide and 9 inches tall at 20 feet. I never did miss a target with it while out on the range, and most were really badly beat up.

I would have to defer to any LEO's on the thread, . . . but my wager is that if they all spoke up as to what their first choice for urban renewal weaponry: trombone shotgun, 12 ga. would get a whole bunch of votes.

May God bless,
Dwight

[Double Naught Spy]

I think 900 FPS is a little slow for most normal loads. I think the velocity is going to be more like 1100-1300 fps for a 12 ga with 00 at short range, at least at a short enough range where all the buck is going into the itended target from an unchoked barrel. In other words, the devastation is even greater than noted above.

[Dwight55]

DNS, . . . and you are correct in all probablity. I was more making the case for the amount of lead hitting the target per shot, not looking particularly at velocities.

If you do go up to velocity though, . . . where do the 3 1/2 in, 12 ga slugs come it??? After hearing my son's version of shooting them, . . . I cannot fathom being on the receiving end of one.

May God bless,
Dwight

[43061]

http://www.remington.com/ammo/ballis...l/buckshot.htm

http://www.remington.com/ammo/ballis...hell/slugs.htm

[mete]

You could go with the Winchester partition slug - 385 gr @ 2000 fps and do it with 1" groups at 100yds with a rifled barrel !!!

[Lawyer Daggit]

I agree. The shotgun is the ultimate self defence weapon for four reasons-

1. Intimidation factor
2. Because it is pointed and not aimed a good shotgunner will have the bad guys layed out while the bad guys are still trying to get a sight picture.
3. It is fast in a multi target situation
4. Sheer payload leaves other self defence weapons for dead.

[Old NFO]

4. Sheer payload leaves other self defence weapons for dead.

Lawyer pretty much hit the nail on the head with all four- Remember 00 Buck is the equivilent of being hit simultaneously by 9 .32 caliber bullets. You also have 9 separate wound channels and 9 separate penetrations. If you've patterned your shotgun, you can do that reliably out to 15 yards mre quickly and accurately than weapon other than a full auto.

My choice is a Mossburg 590A1 20"

[Nimitz87]

while were on the subject of shotgun loads...

whats the diff between 00 12ga buck and #1 12ga.buck besides the amount of pellets?


whats the best load for indoor home defense...dont want shot flying around the neighborhood....

dont have to worrry about the inside of the house itself...live alone.

[mathman]

the difference between 00 buck, #1 buck and #4 buck is the size and quantity of the pellets. the muzzle velocities are about the same +/- 75 fps. most 2 3/4 shells will hold 9 - 00 buck pellets (.32 cal), 16 - #1 buck pellets (.30 cal) and 27 - #4 buck pellets (.24 cal). in home defense, the advantage of #1 or #4 buck is that each pellet has less energy and momentum and therefore has a lesser chance of penetrating walls and hurting neighbors.

[43061]

One of my Remington 870’s has the Vang Comp System. I get patterns using 2 ¾ inch, 9 pellet, 00 buck as tight as 2 ¾ inches at 15 yards. That is a whole bunch of lead traveling at 1325 fps impacting one BG at the same time. There is no way any of my handguns could duplicate that effect.

To really knock things down I can use 3 ½ inch, 18 pellet, 00 buck traveling at a slower 1125 fps. At 30 feet all 18 pellets will stay inside a small Frisbee. Imagine if that Frisbee was a BG’s chest, even wearing body armor he’d be laying on his back watching my ceiling fan go round and round.

[Brobee]

Hello All...

Lots of good thoughts above...thought I would add one thing that I believe to be pretty important:

Selection of the right ammo does require some thought. While slugs are undoubtably the "king" when it comes to their capacity to create effective wound trauma and if overpenetration is a concern careful consideration of what is behind will definately be required. When you get into the shot world there are many options; as you decrease shot size you have the advantage of more projectiles, but as you get smaller and smaller their wound tract generating potential decreases.

Not to paint this all as a disadvantage to the shotgun...I too believe it is infinately more effective as compared to a pistol (other than the portability factor). It is a very versatile tool that allows you (if correctly informed) to to balance a great many variables in solving tactical problems.

For those interested, I've been putting together some thoughts on ammunition performance and selection at a website I've got in the works. What ballistic gelatin teesting I've got thus far is available on the ballistics page at www.tacticalshotgun.ca

Take care,

Brobee

[notheultimateshooter]

As much as I enjoy watching shotguns blast clays at the range, blow up jugs of water at the dump (growing up), or even watching the guy next to me at the indoor range rip apart paper targets - I still understand that it is just another tool to employ for many purposes, to include self defense (Force Protection).

1. Limitations of welding weapons of such size and weight - concerns for quick in the dark movements to safe areas, running, riding, moving in and out of crowds, etc.
2. Limitations on number of rounds that can be fired prior to reloading.
3. CEP - many divergent projectiles as opposed to the single projectile (both a strength and weakness). Obviously all those projectiles do not discriminate by intent to only harm the intended target(s) (presumed to be the bad guys).
4. Overpenetration is a huge concern with most shotgun loads (walls, doors, windows,etc.) - these issues remain with any vectored metal object(s) (high velocities in a directed path).

The place where the engagement is to take place is really up to the bad guy(s). They strike people at home, on the road, at National Parks, etc. I don't know if the shotgun as the "ultimate defense gun" is practical to be in all these places up-and-ready to employ.

As far as the psychological aspects of facing an adversary with a known shotgun capability - I think a known unseen adversary (stalking) not flashing a weapon or making extra noise with a weapon can be more of psychological distraction for an adversary. Better yet, an unknown unseen adversary (to the BG) stalking where the bad guy is in even less control of his/her fate. But I do not want to make any overstatements as every situation is different and perhaps there are appropriate times challenge others with noise, etc.

As far as defense goes - it is my opinion that it must not dwell on the "ultimate" anything but can be accomplished by mapping out and drilling through a fire employment / fire support plan since much of the terrain I'm hearing in here concerns home defensive postures. Movement and maneuver, communication assets (whether to LE (so you can produce even greater pressure on the BG and limit the time you may be dealing with the BG alone), as well as other team members, etc.), safe areas, and many other TTP's guided by METT-TSL analysis can provide much more enhanced force protection than dwelling on a single type of firearm/weapon.

In many cases I'd prefer NODS and a silenced .22 (especially if I'm defending home turf or territory I'm both familiar with and have prepared for such engagements) than a shotgun. I'm sure most reading this have such a plan and consider their own version of unit (family) SOPs and ROE so that when fires are necessary there is a lower risk of fratricide.

IMHO effective defense is not about the weapon but about the overall plan and therefore the ultimate defense gun does not exist...

[Nimitz87]

Brobee...very nice sight love the gelatin tests....hope to see more when the site is done. good work man

[cntryboy1289]

Brobe, I have a question about the velocities on your web site. I don't have a bird shot round that only has 650fps. Mine all clock around 1055 to1100. This being said, the entrance wounds you show will enter the vitals. The distance to the vitals of a normal size man isn't more than 2-3 in depth. You also leave out one very important factor of you search, which is the loss of blood and the shock factor. The more shock you inflict on your intended target, the faster he will go down. The tearing of tissue and rapid blood loss is indicated by your results using the bird shot. Don't sell this issue short for home defense.

[Ozzieman]

For several reasions, yes I would like to keep 00 buck but I worry about killing a good guy if some of the pellets miss several walls away.
With bird shot I wont have to worry about the next door neighbor and since at 10 feet the bird shot has more energy than 3 44 mags put togther and the load is going to be somthing like a 1/2 inch long and 1 inch diamater slug of lead traveling at 700 feet per second, I really dont worry about that second shot, even though I do have 5 more.

[Brobee]

cntryboy1289: the posted velocities are for the calibration BB used to prove that the gelatin is consistant from one block to another (NOT the shot cloud). It shows that the gelatin I'm using is also slightly more elastic than the accepted standard calibration bb penetration of 8.5cm at 590fps, and as consequently the penetration we report on our website is deeper than what would be expected at the standard.

Also...our testing is all conducted at 3 yards from the muzzle of the gun. Birdshot is (IMHO) a poor choice given that it only has debilitating wound channel creation capabilities at ultra close range. Even as close as 6 yards it's penetration is significantly less; the wound likely grizzly but non-lethal.

Shock is, IMHO irrelevent. Our thinking goes that the only two reliable means of incapacitation are blood loss (this can take time) and CNS injury. Much of our hunting gathered data (coming soon...lots of video) supports this.

Take care,

Brobee

[dfaugh]

there's almost nothing you can fire outa a shotgun, that won't give the BG a SERIOUS thump at short range. I keep 15 pellet 00 buck, 3" magnum loads in my 20" Mossberg...At 5 feet the MUZZLE BLAST will probably kill you

[cntryboy1289]

I appreciate the info brobee. Speaking from a medical standpoint, shock is what kills. Shock can come from blood loss or from the injury itself or from the initial energy wave of the projectile. This being said, rapid blood loss can and will cause shock by itself. When I say birdshot, I am referring to lead pellets which you reported as being ok on penetration and wound channel. It is the wound channel that causes the rapid blood loss. The pellet itself being driven into the body causes the energy wave. The energy wave from bird shot will be sufficient to cause shock. Even with all that being considered, I have seen the birdshot in action on a friend, and believe me, it is a viable defense load. My friend was shot in the upper arm from about 20 yds. It was shredded by the shot. The only thing that saved his life was that 2 of us were trained in first aid and we were only a few miles from town. The blood loss was tremendous. He went into shock in just a few seconds. Would he have been able to get up and continue the fight? In a simple answer, no. This was from a arm injury, not a vital area. The blood loss, no matter where it is from, will put an end to a fight.

[jerryd]

Any person that has a 12ga. with slugs and an assortment of other size shotshells is capable of stopping just about anything in north america if they do their part and are close enough. The new slugs are awesum, as far as balistics go but havent tried them, the last slugs i shot were the brenneke 3in golden, 8in group at 100yds, but boy did my shoulder hurt! The military uses them for room cleaning and they work, the MPs that were with us in Nam carried old stevens or savage pumps, with 18 or 20 in bbls.

[ppro]

Just my two cents....ammunition is a important consideration for defense....and probably as important as anything else about the shotgun.

While a cop, I have seen two BIG muscular guys each take relatively close hits....both with 3" mag, one with number 6 shot and the other with BB.

One was a ambush intended to kill him, the other was a dispute over a woman..

One of the guys walked about 8 blocks to the hospital to get treated....holes all over and breathing problems, but nothing else to major.

The other hit with BB sat and talked with me waiting for the ambulance.....he had some nerve damage in his right arm...(didn't work to well) and was pretty pissed off, but not much fight left.

I am sure every hit yields something potentially different and OF COURSE, the ammo....had it been heavier shot, probably could have easily been fatal...

The point is, ammo selection is important......forget thinking just because it is a shotgun that it will stop someone in their tracks.... if the perp is not hit well, and or the shot is not the right stuff......don't ever assume the battle is over till the fat lady sings or whatever or however you want to think about not making assumptions once a shot is fired....you may get a surprise.

Paul

[ppro]

Just maybe this would yield the best stopping power. The one I saw that fired this stuff was recoiless, but there probably is a shoulder fired model.......used them for Africa back when in double rifles if my memory serves.

http://www.remington.com/ammo/industrial/ind_ammo.htm

Paul