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Old October 10, 2004, 10:13 AM   #1
Scott Evans
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What is necessary for one to prevail against a well trained attacker?

What is necessary for one to prevail against a well trained, experienced and determined attacker?

I have seen a lot of discussions from the perspective that those who may attack you are “untrained” and therefore you have excellent chances of survival in a self defense situation. For a change I would like to hear what your thoughts are should you run into the other extreme. In fact assume that sooner or latter that is exactly who will be attacking you. How would you train and conduct yourself so as to survive when it happens?
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Old October 10, 2004, 10:59 AM   #2
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10-Be aware, to minimize the advantage of a surprise attack.
9-Be conscious of your proximity to others, all the time.
8-Be fit.
7-Be trained.
6-Be unwilling to lose, under any circumstances.
5-1, S/A #6.

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Old October 10, 2004, 11:45 AM   #3
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Well trained attackers do a lot more damage than the untrained or unplanned attackers. Classic examples include the Miami FBI shootout and the North Hollywood bank robbery. The when bad guys are prepared and have a plan in mind, a lot of people get hurt or killed, or at least there is the potential for me.

Keep in mind that most never develop enough proficiency to become one of these notable examples, or they become quite good on a small scale such that they remain out of the public eye. They become very good as doing a particular type of crime and do it in a manner that minimizes risk to themselves. Skilled or overly prepared folks in the two noteworthy examples anticipated trouble and trouble was apparently not seen as an obstacle so large that they felt they needs to change their MO.

The query as to what is necessary to prevail over a well trained attacker is overly broad to generate the types of answers needed beyond some basic theoretical considerations at mentioned by DT Guy, some of which won't necessarily apply in many situations and I have no idea what being willing to lose means.

What sort of well prepared attacker are we talking about? Is the attacker singular or part of a group. What sort of circumstance will this be in and what resources will you have available?

Keep in mind that the well trained and well prepared attackers will have taken into account the potential for a fight and will likely have measures in place to help handle whatever fight you may take to them. Being situationally aware may only mean that you are the first person in the group to realize your situation has just turned very crappy. It does not mean that you will have adequate time to react, but the sooner you understand things, the greater your chances for reacting properly.

Contrary to a lot of crap you read in magazines and on various forums, it isn't about winning the fight. "Winning" is a misconception. It is all about surviving the fight. It does you no good to have killed your attacker if he has managed to mortally wound you as well. Sure, you won the fight, but you still end up dead.

Contrary to a lot of the macho crap put out there about folks feeling so safe and confident because they are carrying X gun on their person, have X training and so they are confident about overcoming whatever bad odds they face, the best defense out there still boils down to this. The best defense is to NOT BE THERE! Remember, it is about surviving, not winning.

So if a bad situation confronts you and you have the opportunity to egress from it, taking that opportunity would be most prudent. Simply put, the closer your proximity to the threat, the greater the chances that you will be harmed or killed. Distance is your friend. The best part is that this is not a skill that has to be learned or trained. In your genetic make-up, you will have the fight or flight response. Use the latter, especially in cases where you are under powered as compared to your opposition.

Something else to keep in mind is what the professionals do when they are faced with overwhelming odds by trained or prepared bad guys. In the case of the police, they call out SWAT. They train specifically for tough situations for which the normal officer on the street cannot handle. SWAT also arrives to the scene with heavier armor and more powerful weapons than what the normal street cop is carrying and they arrive as a team and execute a coordinated response.

In all likelihood as a normal civilian, maybe armed, maybe with some good training, if you come up against a well prepared bad guy or more likely, bad guys, the odds will NOT be in your favor. Unfortunaly, when things turn to crap, you may or may not know if you are up against well prepared bad guys or just a group that put a little planning into their attack and who really aren't all that prepared.

So unless you have SWAT or some other obligation to remain in proximity to the threat, move away.

If you don't or can't egress, you are going to hope you had the same capabilities as the guy in The Matrix. Short of that and things may turn out very badly for you. This is not a defeatist attitude, but pragmatic. Even the best of the best get bested and this is most likely to happen when they come up against overwhelming odds or enter into a situation for which they had not trained. In the Miami FBI shootout, agents got injured and killed when one of the gunmen, who was fighting against superior numbers and firepower, too the initiative and advanced on the agent's position. This was something never expected by the agents, but it was a military type tactic the gunman had learn while serving in the military.

You will never be able to prepare for every situation. However, situational awareness, knowing where all the exits are (a good thing for many reasons), self defense training and sustained self defense proficiency will increase your probability for survival against a trained or prepared opposition, but don't count on prevailing per se.
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Old October 10, 2004, 03:54 PM   #4
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a lot of luck would be really good
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Old October 10, 2004, 05:06 PM   #5
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Have a plan.

Have a backup plan.

Have a backup, backup, plan.

NEVER give up.

Train until YOU drop. Then train somemore.

And, what Steveno said: ALOT of luck.

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Old October 12, 2004, 01:44 AM   #6
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I find that the harder I train, the harder I work the luckier I get.

I will generally agree with what has been posted but one thing I would like to point out is that the guys who tried to take down the bank in North Holywood were not what I would call well trained. They may have been well equiped but they were not well trained. Technology and tools is no substitute for training, we tend to forget that from time to time. I know more than a few old fat guys that could have done more harm with a half dozen revolvers than those two did with a trunk full of AKs.

Platt and Mattix in Miami were fairly well trained and if they both could have gotten out of the car and worked together they would have done more damage. More important is that they maintained the fighting mindset. There is a lesson in this too, the FBI guys got a bit complacent I think. If they thought things through properly they would have done things differently I think. Not to second guess them, we just need to learn from them, I think they assumed the opposition would fold when faced with superior numbers. I am sure their combined experience was that criminals generally give up when faced with a number of FBI agents. Never assume and never underestimate the opposition.
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Old October 12, 2004, 09:41 AM   #7
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Load em up with lead in the face!
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Old October 12, 2004, 11:59 AM   #8
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I agree with jake,

Never assume, never under-estimate. Fight to survive.
A gun has never killed anyone.

"I think, therefore, I carry"
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Old October 12, 2004, 12:10 PM   #9
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Agreed, matt. And along with that, don't make the mistake of thinking it's as easy as "Load em up with lead in the face!"


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Old October 12, 2004, 01:37 PM   #10
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Well, in this case, train/practice/learn/whatever as much as you like, but it doesn't offer much protection against a .308 fired from a couple blocks up the road or an IED under your front seat. "Well-trained" attackers don't perform simple robberies just like really good thieves don't rob convienience stores. If a "well-trained" attacker has it in for you, there's a reason. That reason almost certainly comes with enough money to hire a professional security firm.

Or, alternatively, focus on the survivable. Worrying about truly proficient attackers performing a random crime against you is along the same magnitude as worrying about mutant ninja space bears. If either case ever happened to be true, then you're screwed no matter how much skill you have, how many schools you've attended or how much gear you've got.
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Old October 12, 2004, 01:54 PM   #11
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As far as I'm concerned DT Guy, and Jake have the right idea.
But,You can never be ready for every situation. Training does make you think on your feet and gives you a much better chance. Training is not going to help you if a DC type sniper has you in his sights as his very first victim.
But it will help you after the first sniping incident.
The Miami FBI shootout and the North Hollywood bank robbery had little to do with training and everything to do with firepower. In Miami, The FBI agents saw that the two BGs had a rifle but stupidly attempted a felony stop anyway without having their team with the FA weapons available. North Hollywood...way out gunned with all the SWAT teams across town doing training at the same time.
The North Hollywood robbers didn't plan that, it was a lucky break for them.
In both cases neither have secondary escape plans, and both teams were motivated, in a last stand effort, to kill as many LEOs as possible.

Your only option is to read and live DT guys rules. The only thing that I could add to DT guys list is access to appropriate weaponery.
Dependable weapon on your hip, appropriate back up if needed in your area,a blade, rifle/shotgun with ammo in the trunk of the car. Medical kit, food, water, 2 communication devices(cell phone, radio).

I know it seems like we live in a war zone doesn't it. You chance of needing this stuff is minimal, but ask the people who were in Lubys resturant in Texas, if they had a chance to do it over what they would want.
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Old October 12, 2004, 04:44 PM   #12
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I guess it's summed up in this paraphrased quote from the Stephen King series, "The Gunslinger"--this was posted on another board, and I think sums up the warrior mindset perfectly:

Don't place so much trust in the weapons that you wear, that you forget the weapon that you are.
Hiding in plain sight...
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Old October 12, 2004, 05:26 PM   #13
Lamar Jaggears
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Question number one = Luck!
Question number two: Train smart. I like training with Louis Awerbuck. Train with more than one person if you can. Tiger McKee, Pat Rogers, Clint Smith, Scott Reitz etc. The training will help your mindset which I think is the most important skill. Training with empty hand skills is sometimes overlooked, however it is important.
I look at myself as a serious student and I am still looking for the answers. I figure I will be looking for them all of my life and you will too!
I don't have an answer. I think it boils down to luck and mindset. Good training and experiences help mindset.
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Old October 12, 2004, 06:04 PM   #14
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Recognizing the attack as early as possible will give you the highest probability of survival... That doesn't simply boil down to "Awareness".. becuase you have to know what you are looking for. Think through the variety of attacks that you could fall victim to during your everyday life and start thinking about what the precursors to those attacks would be. Above all else, train as realistically as possible as often as possible. Force-on-Force training (armed or unarmed) and similar training is immeasurably valuable in terms of tuning in all of your senses to what happens at the outset of an attack.

The athletic ability to draw fast and shoot straight is only part of the solution... recognizing an attack as early as possible and responding efficiently using your environment, tools and training is the key.
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Old October 12, 2004, 06:07 PM   #15
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Well while it is CERTAINLY not simple , and as 'the midget' says: "gun fighting is 90% luck, I don't care what any body says otherwise, but with good training you can push the odds in your favor". Uncle Scotty says " load them up" , I says: "they ain't invented a bulletproof face yet" . Ergo: practicing until you can load up their faces with lead , with what ever weapon system,under any conditions, seems like a lifetime pursuit for me.
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Old October 12, 2004, 08:18 PM   #16
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As much as I would like to say 'skill', 'mindset', 'training' and 'superior equipment', I think 'luck' is just as important.
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Old October 12, 2004, 08:24 PM   #17
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It has been way too long for me to remember the quote but it goes something like:

You must overpower your enemy with overwhelming force, with overwhelming firepower, . . . but most of all with an overwhelming determination to be the survivor. Determination and mindset are the keys to victory sometimes even when the other elements are only mediocre.

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Old October 14, 2004, 10:00 PM   #18
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In my old age I’ve come to acquire somewhat of a different slant on things. Perhaps on an unconscious level I have learned to live by several underlying principals. Over the years the tenets that have kept me safe would include:

(1) DON’T REVEAL! What do I mean by this? Basically, I don’t reveal anything. My very clever mother once said to me; ‘Always keep ‘um off guard, son!’ When I asked her what she meant, she replied; ‘When you’re talking, talk about little things; keep the really important items to yourself and be chary of ever discussing anything significant.’ ‘If it’s physical, go right when they think you’re going to move left, etc.’ ‘If you’re going into town, say something like; ‘I’m going to the park.’ If somebody asks you; ‘Are you good with a gun, say something like; ‘I could be better.’ If you’re going to Branchbrook Park, say; ‘I’ll be at Pinebrook Park.’ - instead. If you plan on suing somebody and the papers are waiting to be filed, say; ‘I think we should be able to work this out between us – don’t you?’

Before anybody comes down too hard on, ‘dear old mom’ let me say that there have been a number of occasions in my own life when I neglected her advice. None of them went well for me; consequently, I have learned to rarely reveal. (Yes, sometimes, I annoy my close associates; but, be that as it may.)

(2) EXPECT TO BE ATTACKED! Develop personal habits that tend to keep other people at arms’ length. Don’t let others stand on your vertical body centerline. Keep the good habit of standing off most people’s left shoulder. (If one of them moves his right side to get closer to you – Watch out!)

(3) ATTACK FIRST! Yeah, I know, many of you can’t behave this way. I would, even, go so far as to say that most people are conditioned by society and, ‘bred like sheep’ NOT to behave this way; but I’m not one of them: Given the right provocation, I can; I have; and I will.

(4) PRACTICE TO DELIVER THE MAXIMUM AMOUNT OF DAMAGE IN THE SHORTEST POSSIBLE TIME. The strongest, best trained, and most skillful opponent on Earth is no match for you in a, ‘duel at dawn’ if you poison him at dinner the night before. Twice in my life I’ve been badly injured in a fight. Both times I was struck, viciously, when my back was turned – What can I say? My fault! Wait, make that three times: The third time was by a woman; I treated her with deference and courtesy; and she broke my left collar bone.

(5) REMEMBER TO ALWAYS APPLY A HIGH MORAL STANDARD TO YOUR AGGRESSIVE BEHAVIOR! I’ll bet some of you didn’t expect me to say this. O’ contraire! My time on this Earth has convinced me that it is impossible to hurt someone else without, also, hurting yourself. I honestly believe that each and every one of us, sooner or later, answers to, ‘God’ for the things that we do. Sure I’d rather walk away from a fight; but, unfortunately for decent benevolently disposed people everywhere, this IS an evil world!

There are many people around us who, for whatever their own personal reasons may be, WILL endanger others, force confrontation, and be quick to demonstrate an inveterate – even pathological – disregard for all of those normal social virtues the rest of us are taught to obey and expect others to hold equally sacred.

(6) THE REAL TRICK – THE KNACK - TO PREVAILING IN ANY FIGHT IS TO ACQUIRE THE EXPERIENCE, AND DEVELOP THE SKILL TO ACCURATELY EVALUATE AND ANTICIPATE MALEVOLENT BEHAVIOR IN OTHERS! I’ve said it before; and I’ll say it again: You’ve got to keep a smile on your face, your shoulders relaxed, and be of a consistent very, ‘serious bend of mind.’

(7) IF ANY ONE PERSONAL CHARACTERISTIC HAS KEEP ME SAFE THROUGHOUT MY LIFE IT WOULD HAVE TO BE THE ACQUIRED ABILITY TO BECOME VERY ANGRY, VERY FAST, AND TO BE ABLE TO FORCE MYSELF TO, ‘FOCUS’ WITH SUFFICIENT MENTAL INTENSITY, ‘TO MELT STEEL’! I truly don’t give a damn about, ‘professionals’ – never did! I spent 30 years teaching myself how to fight. So what! What good does a, ‘black belt’ in anything do if there’s a, ‘baboon’ standing across the room with a Benelli, ‘M-1 Tactical’ pointed at your heart? Whatever your experience, personal skill level, and knowledge may be, never forget that; ‘We, all, walk with God’ - AND – we answer to Him, as well!

I’d like to have a nice new $100.00 bill for every time my, ‘gut’ has warned me that something wasn’t right. Sometimes I’ve listened; and, sometimes, I haven’t. Like they say; ‘Life is for learning!’ and I, ‘listen’ better today than at any other time in my life. Consequently I’m forced to say that, ‘instinct, intuition, and anger’ are more important than any, ‘professional training’. As the Apostle Paul wrote; ‘Physical training is good for a little; but spiritual training is good for a lot!’ 1.

1. I Timothy 4:8, (KJV Verbatim) ‘For Bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.’
‘There are, only, two kinds of warriors in this world: Those who dream of war, and those who have nightmares about it. As for me? I dream of a better world. I dream of war!’
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Old October 15, 2004, 01:57 AM   #19
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I believe that you are someone who has been 'around' and therefore have amassed a wealth of experience in these things.
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Old October 15, 2004, 03:58 PM   #20
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Very good post Arc, I can really tell you know what your talking about. Definatley alot of stuff that I need to work on.
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Old October 15, 2004, 06:09 PM   #21
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That was a good post ARC. If I still hung around with a biker gang, and hang around in one of their bars I would use every bit of what you posted.
In fact I did use everything you posted, funny how when you get old you forget things like that.
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Old October 15, 2004, 08:05 PM   #22
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I'm just a simple Itialian kid from the bronx, but I learned many of the same lessons as a kid growing up. I have learned to live by them as an adult!! Brovo great post. Always LOOK, LISTEN, and be aware of whats going on around you. most of all never let your gaurd down!!!!
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Old October 15, 2004, 08:22 PM   #23
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The truth of the matter is that a WELL TRAINED attacker is gonna gitcha if he has made up his mind to. That's why I try to always be VERY careful about who I piss off!!
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Old October 26, 2004, 04:07 PM   #24
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When you say "well-trained", define.

Military SOF? Basic military? Paramilitary? LEO? Criminal gang?

Are they coming into your house or the immediate vicinity? At work? On the street? Elsewhere?

To capture you or kill you?

Do you have ANY warning, or are you getting ambushed?

These factors all interact with each other to determine if you'll survive the encounter.

If they're military and it's their mission is to kill you, then you're dead, because you'll be cut down in an ambush with FA fire and frag weapons, or maybe a car-bomb, or a bullet to the head from a sniper a half-mile down the road, depending on how the officer in charge of the mission wants it to go down and what country you're in.

If this was Iraq, it'd be a laser-guided Hellfire through your bedroom window.

Paramilitary is much the same, though they're more likely to make a mistake that'll give away their presence and maybe give you maybe a couple of seconds to do something, though the lead and frags are still likely to get you.

If it's LEO's coming to arrest you, or criminals out to kidnap you, then you might have a little more leeway, as they generally try to take you alive, though either one will kill you if they feel threatened.

Criminal gang out to get you? Call the cops, that's their job, so let them do it.

The Miami FBI shootout and the Hollywood Bank Robbers were exceptions in many ways.

Platt and Matix were former military, well trained in the counter-ambush tactic of assaulting into the ambush, and had the mindset of escape or die trying, or maybe they just didn't give a f*** anymore and wanted to take out as many pigs as possible before going out in a 'blaze of glory'.

The Hollywood bankrobbers were just plain nuts. One had a brain tumor, the other amped up on 'roids, and both using barbital at the time as chemical courage.

They didn't really have much of an escape plan, or any plan for that matter, in mind when they went out for the last time. But they were armed for bear and wrapped up in kevlar with a plan to shoot every living thing they could if anyone got in their way, and that's exactly what they did.

Two men with rifles and a willingness to kill and no fear of death are more than most police are able to handle by themselves in the short term. Sure, they can call for SWAT, but that takes time to arrive, by which time people are bleeding and dying.

Anyways, these aren't the kind of people who'd you have to worry about, as they're after the money, and unless you work as an armored car courier/bank guard/cop, you'll likely never see these guys.

If you're worried about these kind of people showing up at your house, MOVE!

If you're caught in the cross-fire between these nuts and the cops, duck and cover as best you can and wait for them to sort each other out before you E&E out of Dodge.

The only other thing I can suggest is having overwhelming firepower yourself. How crazy you want to get with it is up to you. Grenades, flamethrower, toxic gas, claymores? Are you going to the local Stop&Rob for coffee or doing a tour in a free-fire zone?

If you're in suburbia, you'd be the criminal for having any of these things, as it rightly should be, 'cause you're obviously a nutter if you think anyone cares about killing you so badly that you need to be carrying this kind of hardware.

If you're freelancing in Iraq, then it's a war-zone and you do whatever you want as long as you don't get mistaken as a terr by a local Apache overflight, in which case things may get you.
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Old October 26, 2004, 04:56 PM   #25
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Calm, the biggest gun with the most ammo you can use with ability, and luck.
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