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Old November 1, 2002, 02:24 AM   #1
HandgunShooter
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why the complaint again DA?

I saw a lot of people on this forum arguing for SA pistols, complaining that DA gives different trigger pull between first and second shot. I am totally lost here. Why can't you manually cock the hammer on DA pistol just like on a SA pistol? Would that acomplish the samething?
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Old November 1, 2002, 03:04 AM   #2
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Quote:
I saw a lot of people on this forum arguing for SA pistols, complaining that DA gives different trigger pull between first and second shot. I am totally lost here. Why can't you manually cock the hammer on DA pistol just like on a SA pistol? Would that acomplish the samething?
I think what some people are referring to is a DA/SA setup where the first trigger pull is a heavy DA and subsequent shots are SA (thus different trigger pulls from 1st to 2nd).

On some guns you could indeed manually cock the hammer to make all shots SA, however, I would rather have the sights on my target sooner than messing with cocking the hammer.
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Old November 1, 2002, 06:34 AM   #3
Ala Dan
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Most people subscribe to the theory that the DA/SA self
loader's are harder to shoot more accurately!
Just to set the record straight from personal experience,
I find this to be purely a MYTH! Any shooter worth
his/her weight can become a decent shot using such
DA/SA weapons, with lot's of practice. I find the DA/
SA Sig P220 to be an out standing performer, with a
moderate amount of practice. And the factory
trigger on my .45 caliber P220 ain't half-bad either.

Best Wishes,
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Old November 1, 2002, 06:59 AM   #4
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That's one of the main reasons I like Glocks. No DA/SA. No cocked and locked. No hammer or manual safety. No decocking lever. Pull the trigger and it shoots. Same trigger pull for every shot.
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Old November 1, 2002, 08:18 AM   #5
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Hkmp5sd, I'm curious about something. You say that the glock's trigger is the same for every shot, and while this can be true, it's also possible (on the glocks I've shot anyway - my experience with them is limited) to partially release the trigger after a shot has been fired, giving you essentially a single action follow up shot.
I've found a similar thing on my beretta 92 - partially releasing the trigger after a shot makes the subsequent shot lighter than the normal single action pull. I'm fairly new to autoloaders, so this may be a common thing, but if anyone could explain further I'd appreciate it.
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Old November 1, 2002, 09:22 AM   #6
CastleBravo
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Personal opinion from Mr. Sunshine :

Practice that you have to spend just to master the hinky, inconsistent DA/SA trigger system on your gun is almost WASTED practice. Of course, almost any trigger time is good trigger time. But you could be practicing all sorts of things instead of just conditioning yourself "lot's" to deal with a mechanical obstacle you put in your path. Which is what I belive DA/SA triggers are at the end of the day.

But go ahead and do what you want... I know you will anyway.
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Old November 1, 2002, 09:42 AM   #7
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IMHO, a lot has to do with the gun itself. I've tried DA/SA guns that had such bad heavy triggers I couldn't imagine getting off a good first shot in DA; one such gun was a Walther PPK I tried. Other guns are no problem at all, I have a S&W 5906 (9mm) that has a fantastic DA trigger. I can transition from DA to SA without a hitch and can also do this with my Sig 229 (.40). I have to say that I prefer DAO guns for defensive purposes resulting in a Beretta Cougar DAO in .40, a S&W 640 .357 and a NAA Guardian in .32. My reason for prefering DAO has nothing to do with transitioning from DA to SA but that I don't want a cocked gun in my hand after the fact. I am able to shoot these guns as quickly and accurately as my DA/SA models.
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Old November 1, 2002, 09:54 AM   #8
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I have three DA/SA pistols.

Two I keep in condition three and one Cocked and Locked. When in a holster, I carry them cocked and locked.

I never worry about DA to SA transition.
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Old November 1, 2002, 11:24 AM   #9
Jim Watson
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The reason not to thumb cock a DA/SA auto to avoid the heavy DA first shot and the DA to SA transition is because it is sloooow and requires both hands.

Either get a gun with a manageable DA - SA and practice to learn HOW to manage it; or get SA cocked & locked or a tricky trigger like Glock or XD.
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Old November 1, 2002, 11:35 AM   #10
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Quote:
Why can't you manually cock the hammer on DA pistol just like on a SA pistol? Would that acomplish the samething?
First, it is slow, much slower than lowering the safety on a 1911. Second, with some DA/SA guns (e.g., 3913), when decocked the hammer is flush with the rear of the slide. The only way to manually cock the gun is to slightly pull the trigger, raising up the hammer. Third, it is more fumble prone than lowering a 1911 safety. Fourth, if you want to carry cocked and locked, why not just buy a gun that will let you do that (e.g., 1911, CZ-75, HK USP)?

Quote:
Any shooter worth his/her weight can become a decent shot using such DA/SA weapons, with lot's of practice.
I'd argue that the same shooter could be come proficient in operating a 1911-style safety in much less time.

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Old November 1, 2002, 12:49 PM   #11
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Quote:
You say that the glock's trigger is the same for every shot, and while this can be true, it's also possible (on the glocks I've shot anyway - my experience with them is limited) to partially release the trigger after a shot has been fired, giving you essentially a single action follow up shot.
I've found a similar thing on my beretta 92 - partially releasing the trigger after a shot makes the subsequent shot lighter than the normal single action pull. I'm fairly new to autoloaders, so this may be a common thing, but if anyone could explain further I'd appreciate it.
what you are describing is trigger reset, if you get an actual trigger pull gauge you will find that the force needed to break the trigger by only releasing it enough to reset the trigger as opposed to releasing it completely is the same though it may feel different to you, pull distance is obviously less however, learning trigger reset which is available on most pistols with the exception of some DAO guns is the best way to shoot rapidly AND accurately
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Old November 1, 2002, 01:06 PM   #12
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To quote Col. Cooper,

The DA/SA semi-auto pistol is an ingenious solution to a nonexistant problem.

DA/SA was born of people who were ignorant of and thusly paranoid about carrying a 1911 cocked and locked. They were afraid of them! (Anybody who is afraid of guns has no business haviing anything to do with them!)

Glocks were developed for the stupidest grunt in the corps who was unable to deal with ANY safeties at all. This has led to more NDs than with any other Semi-suto pistol.

DAO versions of DA/SA semis are the results of lawyers who want guns that are so safe that they won't fire at all!

God and John Moses Browning got it right in 1911!
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Old November 1, 2002, 01:17 PM   #13
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Quote:
Glocks were developed for the stupidest grunt in the corps who was unable to deal with ANY safeties at all. This has led to more NDs than with any other Semi-suto pistol.

I am certainly no big fan of Glocks. However statements like this abound with little to no documentation. Have there been NDs with Glocks? Certainly. Have there been NDs with 1911s? Certainly. Have there been NDs with DA revolvers? Certainly. The key part here is Negligent Discharge. In my experience, the ignorant and untrained can mess anything up. A safely handled Glock is no more likely to go off than a safely handled 1911.
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Old November 1, 2002, 01:45 PM   #14
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Safely Handled is the Key!

The Glock was designed AS a military pistol. It has ALL the virtues of a good military pistol. It is simple, cheap to produce, easy to maintain and reliable. BUT, like most military small arms, it was designed for use by people who are essentially to stupid to handle it. Its TOTAL lack of ANY manual safety makes it extreemly suceptable to unsafe handling. AND, like it or not, there are more NDs with Glocks than with any other single brand of pistol.
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Old November 1, 2002, 03:31 PM   #15
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Pampers,

I thnk that the first sentence in prisoner6's post is probably the most important. If you are going to make a statement that Glock's have more ND's than another, all of us would appreciate documented proof of this.

I'm not calling you a liar, but your statement would hold more creedance with the masses if there was documented evidence to back up the sentence.
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Old November 1, 2002, 04:41 PM   #16
radom
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I cant stand the DA only models but do like DA/SA autos. Hey it works just fine in revolvers and has since the 1800s but nobody gripes about that feature.
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Old November 1, 2002, 06:18 PM   #17
Handy
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Castlebravo refered to not liking a "mechanical obstacle" in the way of firing, so he carries a gun with a mechanical safety and a grip safety that have to both be disengaged prior to firing. If it had been someone else, I would have assumed they were kidding.

1911's work fine, as long as you get a good purchase on the grip safety and you have an ambidextrous safety lever.

A DA/SA gun can be shot accurately at defense ranges with any type of grip and without any prior step. They also don't require a holster to guard the trigger (Glock) or safety (1911) from being accidentally actuated.

Condition 1 is an unnecessary luxury for a CCW holder who will only be making close shots. It may also be his demise if he forgets to lower the safety or is hurt and can't hold the weapon properly. But if you like to pretend that you will be doing trick shooting in defense of your life, the 1911 is a great way to go. Or a slick cowboy gun.
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Old November 1, 2002, 06:46 PM   #18
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Quote:
Condition 1 is an unnecessary luxury for a CCW holder who will only be making close shots. It may also be his demise if he forgets to lower the safety or is hurt and can't hold the weapon properly. But if you like to pretend that you will be doing trick shooting in defense of your life, the 1911 is a great way to go. Or a slick cowboy gun.
Uh, yeah, right.

Let's see, the DA/SA transition is training managable so that all who use them develop the ability to make glorious first shots, (by far the most important one), under stress, without jerking the pistol horribly off target.

BUT, taking no extra time while bringing up the pistol to wipe off the 1911's thumb safety will be forgotten under stress, even if that is the only pistol the shooter trains with and carries?

Well, Myanmar may land an astronaut on the moon next month too. Now THAT would be a trick shot! Almost as tricky as not having a flier with the DA first shot on most DA/SA pistols. Anyone who equivalates the smoooooth DA pull of a good revolver with the gawdawful first pull of most of the DA first shot autopistols out there should check in for drug treatment.
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Old November 1, 2002, 06:59 PM   #19
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A 5 yard center mass shot is not glorious.
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Old November 1, 2002, 07:46 PM   #20
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"That's one of the main reasons I like Glocks. Same trigger pull for every shot."

True. But it's a truly awful trigger pull.
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Old November 1, 2002, 07:52 PM   #21
cheifwatchman
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Thumbing back the hammer bad idea.

If you attempt to thumb back the hammer on a DA/SA while drawing & fail to thumb back the hammer. Then what ya goina do?
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Old November 1, 2002, 08:16 PM   #22
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Safeties ain't all the same.

Of all he pistols that have safeties. The 1911 safety is in the most natural place. It's also the easyest to remove. Just push down your thumb. Other pistols the safety is pushed up to remove. Also on a pistol like a Beretta. The safety is placed high on the slide. When I owned a Berreta half the time I couldn't reach the safety w/ my thumb. Right now I own a HK USP9 c. Which I shoot SA C&L. The HK safety opperates like the 1911 but it aint the same. The HK safety needs to be back on the frame further & angled better. The HK safety is hard to remove. DA/SA pistols don't need safeties since the hammer is down. the best carry pistol w/ safety is a 1911.
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Old November 1, 2002, 08:33 PM   #23
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DA sucks.

I don't like DA/SA pistols. Because of long hard DA trigger pull. I don't like revolver either. Because of the long hard trigger pull. Long hard trigger pulls mean more of a chance for trigger control mistakes. I like lighter trigger pulls. Thats why I like my Glock w/ a 3.5# trigger pull. 1911 have the best triggers. But 45 ammo cost too much & they don't make a reasonably priced 1911 in 9mm. For me any DAO pistol/revolver woud have to have a trigger job that reduces the trigger pull. I hear DAO Berretas come w/ a reduced trigger pull of about 8#. So thats a good idea. If thats true? Right now I'll stick w/ my Glock.
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Old November 1, 2002, 08:57 PM   #24
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Quote:
by Jim Watson...

The reason not to thumb cock a DA/SA auto to avoid the heavy DA first shot and the DA to SA transition is because it is sloooow and requires both hands.
Why does thumbing the hammer on a DA/SA trigger require two hands? Unless your hands are very small or very weak, you should only require one hand. My friend is 5' even, 95lbs and she can thumb back the hammer on her CZ75 Compact just fine.

Quote:
by Handy...

1911's work fine, as long as you get a good purchase on the grip safety and you have an ambidextrous safety lever.
My friend, JoAnne, also has a Colt Defender. Gripwise, She doesn't have any problems getting a "good purchase" on the grip of her pistol. Where do y'all come up with these statements anyway?

As for ambidextrous safeties, my primary CCW pistols are a Star Firestar Plus and a BHP, though at times, I also carry a Glock 26 or an NAA Guardian. Anyway, both the Star and BHP have ambi safeties. I'm left handed and guess what? I don't use the ambi safety. I was taught in the Corps to shoot a "right handed" 1911, (they were all right handed if I recall). As a lefty, I had to learn to swipe the safety off with the forefinger of my left hand. To this day, this is how I still do it, even when the pistol is equipped with an ambi safety. It's natural to me. Even when I'm carrying my Glock, I instinctively swipe the safety off, even though none is there. So much for the ambidextrous safety problem.

Quote:
by bountyh...

"That's one of the main reasons I like Glocks. Same trigger pull for every shot."

True. But it's a truly awful trigger pull.
The Glock trigger can be greatly improved, almost to the point of totally removing the plastic toy feel and "boing" of the of the striker releasing. All it requires is a NY #1 spring, a 3.5lb connector and lots of magic by a Glock genius applied to the drawbar, connector and trigger. I have just such a pistol. My Glock 26 has a truly remarkable trigger that breaks cleanly with no creep, at a measured 8lbs. Though firmer than stock, the trigger is actually better than many of my pistols and perfect for carrying concealed.

Finally, my Glock has the perfect safety. Me. I don't put my finger on the trigger UNTIL I'M READY TO SHOOT. What a concept!!!
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Old November 2, 2002, 12:28 AM   #25
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"DA/SA was born of people who were ignorant of and thusly paranoid about carrying a 1911 cocked and locked."

Welcome to the wonderful, whimsical world of Jeff Cooper and Chuck Taylor. Repeat something enough times, and it MAGICALLY becomes TRUE.

The DA/SA is a logical evolution of the SA semi-auto, because the DA revolver evolved from the SA revolver. Someone was going try it, if for no other reason than it had been done before on revolvers. Before WWII, virtually every concept and design was still protected by the relevant intellectual property laws (they were all still new enough). People experimented in the early days of smokeless powder, because a new design was cheaper than paying royalties.

The first succesful DA/SA design was the Walther PP, which was an outgrowth of previous design trends in Germany and Central Europe. Its predecessors were not variations on the Browning themes, but quite distinctive designs in their own right. The common denominator of German police pistols during the interwar period tended to be a GRIP safety or TRIGGER safety of some sort, not a Browning-type manual safety.

I actually prefer SA designs with a Browning safety, but seeing the same myths perpetuated time and time again begins to get tiresome after a while. Other inventors developed some classic designs both before and after John Browning.
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