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Old April 14, 2002, 08:07 PM   #1
shooter1201
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Walther P99 v HK USP?

I'm talking about the GERMAN weapons....NOT the S&W junk.

Which do you prefer and WHY? TIA
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Old April 14, 2002, 08:14 PM   #2
George Hill
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The HK. It's twice as tough and more accurate as well. Reliability with the HK isn't even a question.
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Old April 14, 2002, 09:06 PM   #3
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George Hill said:
Quote:
The HK. It's twice as tough and more accurate as well.
Huh? On what empirical evidence do you base this? Do you have torture test data to back this up? I don't think so. Do you own both? I've never seen a gun test where the USP 9 or USP Compact 9 has beat the Walther P99 9mm in accuracy. EVER.

I have several P99s. In 9mm. They have never malfunctioned EVER. I have several HK USPs, albeit none in 9mm. They have never malfunctioned EVER.

But there is no evidence you can produce that indicates that the HK is "twice" as tough and more accurate as well.

My favorite pistols are my P7s. They are also the most accurate. The P99 is second. It has the advantage of packing twice as much ammo is about the same size package. I just shoot my P7 better. I cannot shoot my HK USPs better, but I don't have a 9mm, just .357Sig, .40 and .45. The P99 is more accurate than any of my USPs.

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Old April 14, 2002, 09:10 PM   #4
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I beg to differ George.
My P99 is just as accurate as the H&K Tactical I had, and has a better DA/SA trigger as well.
As far as reliability, my P99 9mm, is working on 3000+ rounds without any problems at all.
How is the H&K "twice as tough"? The steel is steel, the polymer is polymer, and the P99's Tenifer finish is one of the toughest finishes available. And I just don't like that plastic safety/decocker on the USP, it seems cheesy on a $700 pistol.
As far as ergonomics, the H&K isn't even in the same class as the P99, maybe the new H&K P2000 will be as ergonomic, but the USP's are not very user-friendly, especially when compared to the Walther.
The H&K definately has snob appeal, but thats about it.
IMHO of course.
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Old April 14, 2002, 10:40 PM   #5
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The controls on the USP are where I expect them to be, and easy to reach. The decocker on the P99 is not easy to reach, so I find the Walther to be less ergonomic. And for the record, I do own a P99.
I do like the USP compact. The full size is a bit large for my hands.
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Old April 14, 2002, 11:30 PM   #6
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I prefer my USPs to most anything else. Controls are where they should be w/o manipulating grip, accuracy is superb and reliability & durability are top notch.
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Old April 14, 2002, 11:45 PM   #7
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The USP is a good, solid gun. One thing I cannot understand however is why it is so expensive for a polymer gun. The USP has proven itself which is something the P99 is yet to do as it needs more time in the market.

The USP appears to be better built and stronger. The P99 is clearly however a more accurate pistol (shoot one and see) and it has a very fast trigger reset which is comparable to, if not faster than that of the Glock.

You can't go wrong with either, it comes down to personal choice. For me, I prefer the USPc because I find it more concealable than the P99 and as I said before it has proven itself esp. reliability and durability.
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Old April 14, 2002, 11:47 PM   #8
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I'm with George. If I were going to buy a plastic gun, it'd be an HK USP-C.

It has a manual safety that you can ignore if you insist on the P-99 like decocker instead. It's got it all.
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Old April 14, 2002, 11:50 PM   #9
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http://www.streetpro.com/usp/torture.html

Quote:
The HK USP is probably the most thoroughly tested pistol ever produced. The testing process of the USP, already extreme in exceeding strict NATO AC-225 Military Specification Standards, in many ways mirrors the regimen the HK SOCOM pistol was subjected to .

The barrel of the USP is cold-hammer forged from high-grade chromium steel, the same type of steel used in cannon barrels. During testing, a bullet was deliberately lodged in a USP barrel. Another cartridge was then fired into the obstructing bullet. The second bullet cleared the barrel, resulting in a barely noticeable bulge. The pistol was then fired for accuracy and the resulting group measured less than 2.5 inches at 25 meters.

Other less destructive tests reveal much about USP reliability and durability. Function testing a wide selection of ammunition types, one test gun fired more than 10,000 rounds without a single malfunction. That means no stove-pipes, no failures to feed o r eject; no jams! Endurance firings of test samples has passed 20,000 rounds of high performance .40 S&W ammo without any parts failures. Sever temperature tests required the USP to be frozen at -44 degrees F (-42 degrees C) and then fired, frozen again a nd quickly heated to 153 degrees F (67 degrees C), and then fired again. These temperature spectrum tests were continually repeated, and with no adverse effects on the USP.

Demanding NATO Mil-Spec mud and rain tests were conducted, again with the USP passing without difficulty. Water immersion and salt spray also presented no problems to the USP. Outside metal surfaces of the USP are covered with an extremely hard nitro-gas carburized and black oxidized finish.

All internal metal parts, including springs, are coated with a special Dow-Corning process that reduces friction and wear. Both the internal and external finishes have proved to be especially corrosion resistant. For more than two years, German Navy comba t divers have used the same process on weapons parts without any signs of rust.

Safety testing exceeded the ANSI/SAAMI requirements adopted in May 1990. These included dropping a USP with a primed cartridge and decocked hammer on a variety of surfaces without discharging. The USP easily surpassed these commercial requirements, as wel l as German police tests, including repeated drop tests from six feet, hammer first, onto a steel backed concrete slab. Proof round firing resulted in no cracks, deformations, or increase in head space. attempts to fire the USP pistol with an unlocked bre ech proved impossible.

The HK recoil reduction system (patent pending), a mechanical dual spring buffering device, is another feature common to the USP and the HK SOCOM pistol. During the USP testing phase, HK engineers discovered this innovative unit reduces the peak force act ing on the USP grip to less than 300 Newtons (66 pounds). Peak force shock on competing .40 caliber polymer and metal framed pistols climbed to more than 5000 Newtons (1102 pounds).

The primary benefit of low peak shock is a decrease in wear and tear on pistol components. Reduction in peak shock forces also contributes to softer recoil for the shooter, although these "felt recoil" values are much more subjective.

Excerpted from the 1993 Edition of Sentinel Magazine.
The P99 I tested had crappy accuracy. I was hitting groups almost twice as tight with the HK USPc. I've also seen P99s break on the range during firing.
We all have different opinions. Don't get pissy if someone disagrees with yours.
And don't give me the line that those tests are only for the full size pistol. The designs are very simialr. Other than size, the only difference is the simplified recoil buffer system on the springs.
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Old April 15, 2002, 12:06 AM   #10
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I have yet to find an HK USP9, or USP9c, that is more accurate than my Walther P99. I have also seen HK USPs fail at the range. Hell, I been present for two different HK USP mainspring failures. In both of those cases the new owner failed to read the instructions because they had "fired a USP before and knew how they worked." The bright orange warning sticker was only read just before returning the guns for repair.

HK's cost more, but their customer service sucks.:barf:
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Old April 15, 2002, 08:44 AM   #11
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Hell, I been present for two different HK USP mainspring failures. In both of those cases the new owner failed to read the instructions because they had "fired a USP before and knew how they worked."
Could you please elaborate on what they did? I don't see how anyone could damage the HK USP through ineptitude unless they had the safety engaged and forced the trigger to the point of failure (which I think probably could be done). I don't even think you can put it back together wrong. I'm just curious.
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Old April 15, 2002, 10:15 AM   #12
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blades67,
Quote:
HK's cost more, but their customer service sucks.
What experiences have YOU had with H&K's customer service to lead you to that conclusion?

Shake
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Old April 15, 2002, 10:16 AM   #13
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Tit for tat: Okay, the Sentinel is an HK publication. Here is Tetragon's torture test report on the P99:

Durability

We made the P99 take tests that were harder that any real situation could ever be. During sustained firing tests, more than 250.000 rounds of the extremely powerful +P ammunition were fired by us under adverse conditions. There were rapid firing tests at temperatures of 45 'C and also at + 75 'C which demanded the most from the material The P99 passed all these tests with distinction.

Drop test

According to the test requirements of the German police academy, the P99 is to take the drop test. The cocked pistol is being dropped from levels between 1,3 and 2 meters, at different angles, onto surfaces of steel, concrete or plastic. The weapon must not fire. The P99 fulfills the highest safety requirements of a Single Action/Double Action weapon.


Here's the link to their site: http://www.tetragon.ca/p99/pg2.html#police

Regards,
James
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Old April 15, 2002, 10:20 AM   #14
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Quote:
Could you please elaborate on what they did? I don't see how anyone could damage the HK USP through ineptitude unless they had the safety engaged and forced the trigger to the point of failure (which I think probably could be done). I don't even think you can put it back together wrong. I'm just curious.
The newer USP's have a locking mechanism in the magwell. If you don't disable this prior to racking the slide (which will be difficult, but some people continue to force it), you will likely damage the mainspring. Not really a design flaw with the USP, but rather owners who don't RTFM (or the bright orange sticker...) and of course the lawyers which is why the device is there. My tactical has this - I "unlocked" it the day I got it, haven't touched the lock since, and it has been fine.

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Old April 15, 2002, 10:37 AM   #15
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Quote:
I've never seen a gun test where the USP 9 or USP Compact 9 has beat the Walther P99 9mm in accuracy. EVER.
This leads me to believe that you have seen tests where the P99 has beaten the USP in accuracy?? Can you elaborate?

I have to say, my USPs have been much more accurate than most guns I have fired at the range, including one P99 in 9mm.

I believe that with most quality guns you'd find only individual variation in accuracy. That is to say that any given example of any given modle will beat any other. What we may be arguing is the experiences each of us have had with different specimens (ie. the USP I fired was extremely accurate, the P99 not so accurate, and vice versa).

Shake
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Old April 15, 2002, 12:08 PM   #16
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Quote:
The newer USP's have a locking mechanism in the magwell.
Oh, that stupid thing. Yeah. I never have locked the pistol, so I completely forgot about it! (my dealer had unlocked it prior to my purchase because the staff always locks open the slide before handing a pistol to an inquisitive customer).
Thanks!
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Old April 15, 2002, 12:55 PM   #17
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HK USP over the p99.
p99 trigger sucks.

I have a p99 that I'm having trouble selling.
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Old April 15, 2002, 01:59 PM   #18
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Own a P99 and a USP

The grip of the Tac is the right size, but it really needed a Hogue sleeve to be comfortable for me. The P99 is completely ergonomic, and feels great! I disagree with the posters who claim the USP is more comfortable. The USP grip is more positive, however.

The USP (Tac .45 fullsize) is definitely more accurate in my hands than the P99 for slow firing. I can put all shots in the black, nicely grouped at 50 feet with the Tac. They spread out quite a bit with the Walther. I attribute some of this to the chintzy sights on the P99 and the good sites on the USP. USP seems to have a softer recoil, but muzzle flip is higher (this is .45 vs 9mm, so dunno how informative this is - I have shot a USP in 9mm, and from what I can remember, the P99 feels "snappy" - more of a sharp kick.) Close range, there's not that much difference in group size, but the Tac still edges the Walther.

The recoil spring assembly in the P99 strikes me as very cheap. This is one of the parts I would like to replace (other being the sights.)

For quick drills in "defensive range", I would go with the Walther - this is probably a feature of the caliber, but it's quick and light to deploy, fits my hand like a glove, and points right on. I can shoot much more quickly (I think this is the advantage of not having the USP's recoil reduction double spring system.)

Generally, I think the USP is more of a quality piece with classy, confidence-inspiring components, but the P99 is beautiful to my eye and hand, and a superior choice for carry.

Matt
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Old April 15, 2002, 03:43 PM   #19
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I prefer the P99 because I don't own a USP. I do like my P9s though.
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Old April 15, 2002, 04:05 PM   #20
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Both are superb fighting pistols. Durable, reliable and accurate.
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Old April 15, 2002, 05:57 PM   #21
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Quote:
The USP (Tac .45 fullsize) is definitely more accurate in my hands than the P99 for slow firing.
It damn sure better be for an extra $500, you better get something out of a USP Tac.

In my experience, my P99 is just as accurate as my USP Tactical. A better comparison for the $$$ would be a USP Tactical vs. the Walther P88 Comp.
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Old April 15, 2002, 09:24 PM   #22
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Okay, my rebuttal page is up. Now remember, this is in direct response to George Hill's statement:

Quote:
The HK. It's twice as tough and more accurate as well.
I have nothing against HK USP and USP Compacts. I love them too, I have some. But the blanket statement that the USP and USP compacts are more accurate (in general) cannot be supported by any reviews that I've seen.

See my page and decide for yourself. Take the reviews for what they are worth. You may have a lemon P99, and there may be spectacular shooting USP Compacts out there. I just haven't seen them yet.

Walther P99 vs USP/USP-C

Regards,
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Old April 15, 2002, 10:59 PM   #23
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Yes I have a LEMON P99-9mm-German Walther..I love these threads. It gives me a chance to vent my anger at something not someone..My P99 shoots pretty straight, when it shoots, but it's not in the same class as my HK Tactical.In my humble opinion, based on my experience with the Walther,The Walther should not be classified as a pistol for any purpose other than PLINKING .It malfunctions (fails to fire,fails to release the firing pin with the trigger in the rear most position) etc etc etc..The N.J. STATE POLICE sent them back, and cancelled their order because they did not work !! Too many failures to fire!! I keep mine just so I can complain when the occasion arises..Try the other brands, then decide..To me, them that say the P99 German or otherwise,are great ,are used to using more inferior products than the P.O.CRA* I have..:barf:
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Old April 16, 2002, 07:09 AM   #24
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Wishbone:

Excuse me but the Tactical costs about 40% more than the P99, not a fair comparison. And, it's not 9mm.

And you are quite incorrect regarding the NJ State Police and their SW99 (NOT P99) problems. Regardless of what the anti-P99 crowd will lead people to believe, the Smith & Wesson SW99 is NOT the same gun as the Walther P99.

Regards,
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Old April 16, 2002, 08:52 AM   #25
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Field strip them both.

Then decide. Examine the feed ramp and the recoil assembly especially closely. Have a look at the factory sights.

P99 wins:
1) Ergos - no question.
2) Swappable backstraps - maybe we can compare again when the HK P2000 comes out
3) Adjustable rear sight
4) Quality metal mags (9mm USP is plastic blended to metal)
5) Cool aesthetics and nice finish.
6) Thinner and more streamlined
7) FTE/FTF count: 6 in the first 100 rds - none since
8) 007 fantasies optional...

HK wins:
1) Quality iron sights
2) Steel recoil assembly (not a plastic stick like the P99)
3) Smooth and well designed feed ramp. The P99 is basically a flat face leading to the mouth of the barrel. The HK is rounded and blended into the countour of the barrel mouth.
4) External safety (plus or minus - I like it)
5) Rugged, severe aesthetic - no foolin' around
6) Slide release is easier to hit
7) Mag release is easier to hit
8) De-cocker is much easier to use (but also sticks out more - and when do you really need to use this in a hurry, anyway?)
9) FTE/FTF count - you're kidding, right? 0 of course
10) Lara Croft fantasies optional?

Anyway, a field strip should quickly show you where your extra $$$ was spent. Accuracy shouldn't be an issue either way. If I were buying 9mm again, I would again get the Walther. Sweet little piece. Any other caliber, or another 9mm, definitely HK.
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