Powder charge?

ZVP · February 11, 2014, 03:39 PM

I have been shooting Cap anc Ball Revolvers about 2 1/2 years now but the question if the right load still haunts me!
I have read about so many different powder charges for the '51 Navy that I am bewildered! Loade from 26 gr to 25gr are advised.
I have even been told that a cylinderfull is NOT an overcharge, but I won't do that!
Of the ones I read I settled on a 22gr charge of Pyrodex (real BP is impossible to find) for my Uberti ''51 Navy and my Piettia '61 Police Navy models.
I read the spec's on different Flasks and even the Flasks sold at Cabelas come with a 16gr charge spout!
So just what is a proper charge of Pyrodex (mwasures the sane as real BP)?
At 22 gr it dosen't seem or shoot like an overcharge for the .36.
BTW, I use the same 22gr charge in my Brass Freme Piettia .44, reasoning that this is a meduim charge. I tried several loads and from reading Mike V.'s fine article in Guns of the old West, I settled on the 22gr charge.
This charge fires solidly, with little recoil, and good accuracy.
By a similar process I deduced that a 35gr charge works well in my '58 Remingtons.
What is the right charge for all these guns? am I exceeding the right charges?
Thanks,
ZVP

Snyper · February 11, 2014, 04:25 PM

The "right charge" is the one that's the most accurate in your gun, and does what you want it to do.

It's nearly impossible to blow one up from overcharging with BP

Other than that, the "right charge" is like "the prettiest girl"

It depends on who you ask, and nothing more

maillemaker · February 11, 2014, 06:21 PM

Quote:

The "right charge" is the one that's the most accurate in your gun, and does what you want it to do.

This.

Most of the .44 cal guns like the 51, 60, 58, will probably reach optimum accuracy around 20 grains of 3F powder or equivalent.

But you have to "develop a load" for each gun.

For a revolver, I make up 6 cartridges in varying loads from 15 grains up to 30, in 5 grain increments.

Except the Walker, which I did from 30 grains up to 60 in 5 grain increments.

Here is an example of what a load workup might look like. This was for my Uberti Walker:

http://i.imgur.com/aYAQNM5.jpg

You can't tell it from the picture, but on the 45 grain target the top-most hole was actually 3 bullets in the same hole (very nearly) and the left-most hole was 2 bullets in the same hole (very nearly).

I'd say between 35 and 45 grains is going to work for this gun. Now that I have it dialed in that close I will make up more cartridges in this range and try again.

The owners' manuals for the guns will tell you the maximum load for them. It's generally not a good idea to shoot maximum loads with brass framed guns as the cylinder will batter the back of the frame and eventually dent it. This will open up the cylinder face-to-barrel gap and cause it to vent gasses when firing. This may affect accuracy.

Steve

Noz · February 11, 2014, 07:00 PM

Most of the cowboys will shoot 16-20 grs of FFFg in the 36s and 20-28 in the 44s

Fingers McGee · February 11, 2014, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noz

Most of the cowboys will shoot 16-20 grs of FFFg in the 36s and 20-28 in the 44s

My normal loads are a little heavier than that; 22 gr fffg in my .36s and 30 in my .44s.

Hawg · February 11, 2014, 07:51 PM

I generally use 25 grains in my steel 51 navy.

Chris_B · February 11, 2014, 08:53 PM

I have a friend who was lucky to escape injury after the cylinder let go out the side on a .44 1860 Army. He didn't get a scratch but the cylinder is junk. He used 25gr. The manufacturer told him it was a "hot load".

I disagree with that a lot...my .36 likes 22-24gr

ZVP · February 12, 2014, 12:47 AM

I can see why the manufacturers suggest such light loads (legal complications!)
However they don't suggest a BP cartrige load or even mention a Smokeless cartige cylinder!
I guess you mist take all the info that you can gather and work your way up from the bottom to get power and accuracy.
U have quite a nuce little library of BP books, and all never state the same charge the same! Very confusing!
'
I'm not trying to build up a man-stopper but I would like as powerfull load about approximate to the old full power charge for hunting small game and another lighter "Target load".
I guess the old trial and error method is best ( combined with a lot of common sense!
Thanks for all the help guys!
ZVP

maillemaker · February 12, 2014, 04:35 PM

Quote:

I have a friend who was lucky to escape injury after the cylinder let go out the side on a .44 1860 Army. He didn't get a scratch but the cylinder is junk. He used 25gr. The manufacturer told him it was a "hot load".

I don't think that is particularly hot for an 1860 Army.

Steve

Hawg · February 12, 2014, 08:18 PM

Quote:

I have a friend who was lucky to escape injury after the cylinder let go out the side on a .44 1860 Army. He didn't get a scratch but the cylinder is junk. He used 25gr.

25 grains of what, W 231?

I use 30 - 35 in 1860's

robhof · February 12, 2014, 08:36 PM

He might have had bullet creep and the lighter load plus an air gap produced excessive pressure, yes even with a reduced load an unseated ball or bullet can produce dangerous pressures.

Jbar4Ranch · February 12, 2014, 10:29 PM

I think I'm using something like 13 grains in my Griswold & Gunnison .36's for CAS - it gives me a full stroke of the ram and there's no need to use more for the game.

wap41 · February 12, 2014, 10:54 PM

I bought a 36 cal pistol from a person that won a national black powder championship with it a few years ago.I'm sure the powder charge he used was 16grs.

ZVP · February 14, 2014, 02:36 AM

I use a 20gr load of Pyrodex in my brass frame .44 Navy.
use 22 gr in my steel .26 Navy.
I use 30 and 35 gr pf Pyrodex in my Remmies both give pretty good accuracy, but the heavier load shoots more consistant groups. Both loade go BOOM, not the Pffft or whoosh that lower charges sound like.
I see some BP shooters load so light that their guns go Pffft! Almost sounds like the balls aren't going to clear the muzzle! I dont know ig they are trying to save powder or what???
I have shot my BP revolvers without ear plugs (in wide open fields)
The loads I use give a solid boom and aren't abusive to the ears
I would bet that a ROA charged full is an earsplitter!
Just trying to enjoy the sport to the fullest and with the most "realistic" loads like in the old days.
I shoot lead ball ammo and have found it quite accurate! My full size '58 Remington ia the most accurate of the 6 revolvers that I own.
Thanks for the help!

BPDave

Chestnut Forge · February 14, 2014, 11:08 AM

I run 50 to 60 grains of goex 3f in the walker. 55 seems to be the sweet spot. And you have to love the looks on peoples faces when their smokeless pistols are going "pop, pop" and someone cuts loose with "PHWOOM" My range has a steel roof over the benches. The walker makes it rattle.

Chris_B · February 14, 2014, 06:15 PM

Quote:

25 grains of what, W 231?

I use 30 - 35 in 1860's

Quote:

He might have had bullet creep and the lighter load plus an air gap produced excessive pressure, yes even with a reduced load an unseated ball or bullet can produce dangerous pressures.

I dunno what he used. I use pryodex myself. He had been happy with pellets in the past so maybe he used those, but I don't know which brand of course.

We talked about a possible air gap. It's either that or a cylinder with dross/voids as far as I can tell. He didn't feel that the balls went in at different depths but I can bet he's gonna be damn sure in the future!

ZVP · February 25, 2014, 02:09 AM

Pyrodex if ya read the post funny guy!
ZVP

DD4lifeusmc · February 25, 2014, 02:47 PM

first you got to decide if you are are shooting a .31, .32, .36, .44 or what.
If you bought the thing new, go with what the manufacturer recommends
Speaking for the standard 44's here.
Whether it be the Colt style 1860 Army or the Remington style.
They will normally hold a max of about 40 gr of fffg.
But that does not mean you will actually completely seat the common .454 round ball with that much powder.
But many will do so with a 35 grain charge of fffg.
But 35 is many times looked at as a hot load for some.
Personally in my Remingtons I regularly load 25 to 35 gr depending on what i am going to shoot with that load. Paper 25 is more than enough. Penetration in wood and such 30+.
Now if I want it loaded for an aggressive asailant, animal or a person.
the 30 to 35gr is just fine.
My 1851 44 has slightly smaller chambers length wise so my max in them is 30 gr. Yours may be different.
Now my walker which is also classed as a 44 has much longer chambers.
While it will hold 60 gr I don't load it that hot. I normally use 40 to 5ogr fffg in it.

Chris_B · February 25, 2014, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Pyrodex if ya read the post funny guy!
ZVP

Hi.

Hawg Haggen asked me, specifically by quoting me, what charge my friend had used during an accident he suffered, and what type of powder he used to make up the charge. i describe that accident in this thread.

My reply ("I dunno what he used") was not in reference to your original post, in which I fully understand you cited Pyrodex, but rather in response to Hawg Haggen- and I did that by quoting him.

I am sorry you feel I'm a "funny guy", and that you are upset, but your unhappiness has come from a mistake you have unfortunately made, not from my statements. I'm not offended, so please try not to be offended yourself. Have a nice night.

ZVP · February 27, 2014, 09:17 PM

Hi Hawg!
I didn't mean to make ya mad, I was just being funny myself!

My main concern is .36 caliber loads.
Hope we can still be friends?
ZVP

Hawg · February 28, 2014, 05:30 AM

Quote:

Hi Hawg!
I didn't mean to make ya mad, I was just being funny myself!

Huh, what? You gotta try harder than that.

Chris_B · March 1, 2014, 07:46 AM

My name is Chris, not Hawg. Hawg's not as good looking as me

Hawg · March 1, 2014, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Hawg's not as good looking as me

Chris_B · March 1, 2014, 11:21 AM

Don't hate me because I'm beautiful!

davem · March 1, 2014, 12:34 PM

ZVP- I'll address your question. You have a lot of wiggle room. I bought my first Navy 36 at age 15 over 40 years ago and have shot it a lot. The store that sold me the gun threw in a flask with a 10 grain charge and the fellow told me to use that. One day I missed the target and hit the wood frame, the ball only buried itself about 1/2 way into the wood!!!
I started talking to some old timers and they said with a round ball, the weight is so light and the bearing surface against the bore so minimal that you really could not overload the gun with powder. You could cram in as much powder as possible and be okay. Now a conical that weights more and engages the bore over a larger area- that's different.
So how much powder???
Well I shot a lot with the tiny 10 grain charge so that would be a minimal charge. The theory on accuracy is that the longer the ball travels down the chamber- the less accurate, you want the ball right at the end of the chamber BUT NO AIR SPACE so a lot of shooters using a small charge will put in the powder charge and then use a filler like cream of wheat cereal. The only purpose of this filler is to take up dead air space if you seat the ball at the end of the chamber.
Historically the military didn't use a flask and round balls. It is perhaps the greatest misunderstood aspect of percussion revolvers. I've yet to find a Military issued flask (Civil War) issued to troops carrying a percussion revolver. The military used combustible cartridges and bought this type of ammunition from a variety of manufacturers. Colt and DC Sage were the top two. Powder charges varied a little but were pretty mild. In the 36 Navy the conical weighed about 136 grains and the powder charge was 15 to 17 grains depending on the order/manufacturer. The Navy has a small loading port. It may have been that a larger cartridge would not be able to fit in the loading port and be rammed.
The western lawmen used combustibles for fast reloading and carried them as back up ammunition but they would start the day loading from a flask and using a ball because much more powder could be used. The balls back then were different, the sprue was visiable and flat and if centered in front it was sort of like a semi-wadcutter and might have hit harder.
I personally can't load much more than around 22 grains of fffg real black powder. If some folks can cram in 25 grains- more power to them.
For most shooting I use a pre-lubed wad (no Crisco). The procedure is an 18 grain powder charge, the pre-lubed wad, the round ball. This is a fairly powerful load but still pleasant to shoot and easy on the gun.
I have but don't often shoot conicals. They are not as accurate. In the Old West plenty of folks went to their reward getting laid low with just a regular round ball from a Colt Navy.
Finally on this small charge with cream of wheat filler. If you are not careful you might erroneously think "well this is a target load so it must be more accurate". I've always gotten better accuracy with a larger powder charge. The cream of wheat folks are trying to save money on the powder.

February 11, 2014, 03:39 PM	#1
ZVP Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2009 Posts: 1,102	Powder charge? I have been shooting Cap anc Ball Revolvers about 2 1/2 years now but the question if the right load still haunts me! I have read about so many different powder charges for the '51 Navy that I am bewildered! Loade from 26 gr to 25gr are advised. I have even been told that a cylinderfull is NOT an overcharge, but I won't do that! Of the ones I read I settled on a 22gr charge of Pyrodex (real BP is impossible to find) for my Uberti ''51 Navy and my Piettia '61 Police Navy models. I read the spec's on different Flasks and even the Flasks sold at Cabelas come with a 16gr charge spout! So just what is a proper charge of Pyrodex (mwasures the sane as real BP)? At 22 gr it dosen't seem or shoot like an overcharge for the .36. BTW, I use the same 22gr charge in my Brass Freme Piettia .44, reasoning that this is a meduim charge. I tried several loads and from reading Mike V.'s fine article in Guns of the old West, I settled on the 22gr charge. This charge fires solidly, with little recoil, and good accuracy. By a similar process I deduced that a 35gr charge works well in my '58 Remingtons. What is the right charge for all these guns? am I exceeding the right charges? Thanks, ZVP Last edited by ZVP; February 11, 2014 at 03:45 PM.

February 11, 2014, 04:25 PM	#2
Snyper Senior Member Join Date: December 16, 2013 Location: Eastern NC Posts: 3,047	The "right charge" is the one that's the most accurate in your gun, and does what you want it to do. It's nearly impossible to blow one up from overcharging with BP Other than that, the "right charge" is like "the prettiest girl" It depends on who you ask, and nothing more __________________ One shot, one kill

February 12, 2014, 08:36 PM	#11
robhof Senior Member Join Date: September 16, 2007 Posts: 712	robhof He might have had bullet creep and the lighter load plus an air gap produced excessive pressure, yes even with a reduced load an unseated ball or bullet can produce dangerous pressures.

February 12, 2014, 10:29 PM	#12
Jbar4Ranch Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 1999 Location: Near Helena, Montana Posts: 1,719	I think I'm using something like 13 grains in my Griswold & Gunnison .36's for CAS - it gives me a full stroke of the ram and there's no need to use more for the game. __________________ Sometimes the squeaky wheel gets replaced... SASS 47015

February 12, 2014, 10:54 PM	#13
wap41 Senior Member Join Date: August 3, 2009 Posts: 99	powder charge I bought a 36 cal pistol from a person that won a national black powder championship with it a few years ago.I'm sure the powder charge he used was 16grs.

February 11, 2014, 07:00 PM	#4
Noz Senior Member Join Date: February 25, 2009 Posts: 643	Most of the cowboys will shoot 16-20 grs of FFFg in the 36s and 20-28 in the 44s

February 11, 2014, 07:51 PM	#6
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,189	I generally use 25 grains in my steel 51 navy.

February 11, 2014, 08:53 PM	#7
Chris_B Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2007 Posts: 3,101	I have a friend who was lucky to escape injury after the cylinder let go out the side on a .44 1860 Army. He didn't get a scratch but the cylinder is junk. He used 25gr. The manufacturer told him it was a "hot load". I disagree with that a lot...my .36 likes 22-24gr

February 12, 2014, 12:47 AM	#8
ZVP Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2009 Posts: 1,102	I can see why the manufacturers suggest such light loads (legal complications!) However they don't suggest a BP cartrige load or even mention a Smokeless cartige cylinder! I guess you mist take all the info that you can gather and work your way up from the bottom to get power and accuracy. U have quite a nuce little library of BP books, and all never state the same charge the same! Very confusing! ' I'm not trying to build up a man-stopper but I would like as powerfull load about approximate to the old full power charge for hunting small game and another lighter "Target load". I guess the old trial and error method is best ( combined with a lot of common sense! Thanks for all the help guys! ZVP

February 14, 2014, 02:36 AM	#14
ZVP Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2009 Posts: 1,102	I use a 20gr load of Pyrodex in my brass frame .44 Navy. use 22 gr in my steel .26 Navy. I use 30 and 35 gr pf Pyrodex in my Remmies both give pretty good accuracy, but the heavier load shoots more consistant groups. Both loade go BOOM, not the Pffft or whoosh that lower charges sound like. I see some BP shooters load so light that their guns go Pffft! Almost sounds like the balls aren't going to clear the muzzle! I dont know ig they are trying to save powder or what??? I have shot my BP revolvers without ear plugs (in wide open fields) The loads I use give a solid boom and aren't abusive to the ears I would bet that a ROA charged full is an earsplitter! Just trying to enjoy the sport to the fullest and with the most "realistic" loads like in the old days. I shoot lead ball ammo and have found it quite accurate! My full size '58 Remington ia the most accurate of the 6 revolvers that I own. Thanks for the help! BPDave

February 14, 2014, 11:08 AM	#15
Chestnut Forge Senior Member Join Date: August 21, 2013 Location: Polk, Pa Posts: 123	I run 50 to 60 grains of goex 3f in the walker. 55 seems to be the sweet spot. And you have to love the looks on peoples faces when their smokeless pistols are going "pop, pop" and someone cuts loose with "PHWOOM" My range has a steel roof over the benches. The walker makes it rattle. __________________ Every gun I've been behind can out shoot me.

February 25, 2014, 02:09 AM	#17
ZVP Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2009 Posts: 1,102	Pyrodex if ya read the post funny guy! ZVP

February 25, 2014, 02:47 PM	#18
DD4lifeusmc Senior Member Join Date: October 12, 2012 Location: Wyoming Posts: 351	hot load? first you got to decide if you are are shooting a .31, .32, .36, .44 or what. If you bought the thing new, go with what the manufacturer recommends Speaking for the standard 44's here. Whether it be the Colt style 1860 Army or the Remington style. They will normally hold a max of about 40 gr of fffg. But that does not mean you will actually completely seat the common .454 round ball with that much powder. But many will do so with a 35 grain charge of fffg. But 35 is many times looked at as a hot load for some. Personally in my Remingtons I regularly load 25 to 35 gr depending on what i am going to shoot with that load. Paper 25 is more than enough. Penetration in wood and such 30+. Now if I want it loaded for an aggressive asailant, animal or a person. the 30 to 35gr is just fine. My 1851 44 has slightly smaller chambers length wise so my max in them is 30 gr. Yours may be different. Now my walker which is also classed as a 44 has much longer chambers. While it will hold 60 gr I don't load it that hot. I normally use 40 to 5ogr fffg in it.

February 27, 2014, 09:17 PM	#20
ZVP Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2009 Posts: 1,102	Hi Hawg! I didn't mean to make ya mad, I was just being funny myself! My main concern is .36 caliber loads. Hope we can still be friends? ZVP

March 1, 2014, 07:46 AM	#22
Chris_B Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2007 Posts: 3,101	My name is Chris, not Hawg. Hawg's not as good looking as me

March 1, 2014, 11:21 AM	#24
Chris_B Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2007 Posts: 3,101	Don't hate me because I'm beautiful!

March 1, 2014, 12:34 PM	#25
davem Junior member Join Date: October 4, 2004 Posts: 458	ZVP- I'll address your question. You have a lot of wiggle room. I bought my first Navy 36 at age 15 over 40 years ago and have shot it a lot. The store that sold me the gun threw in a flask with a 10 grain charge and the fellow told me to use that. One day I missed the target and hit the wood frame, the ball only buried itself about 1/2 way into the wood!!! I started talking to some old timers and they said with a round ball, the weight is so light and the bearing surface against the bore so minimal that you really could not overload the gun with powder. You could cram in as much powder as possible and be okay. Now a conical that weights more and engages the bore over a larger area- that's different. So how much powder??? Well I shot a lot with the tiny 10 grain charge so that would be a minimal charge. The theory on accuracy is that the longer the ball travels down the chamber- the less accurate, you want the ball right at the end of the chamber BUT NO AIR SPACE so a lot of shooters using a small charge will put in the powder charge and then use a filler like cream of wheat cereal. The only purpose of this filler is to take up dead air space if you seat the ball at the end of the chamber. Historically the military didn't use a flask and round balls. It is perhaps the greatest misunderstood aspect of percussion revolvers. I've yet to find a Military issued flask (Civil War) issued to troops carrying a percussion revolver. The military used combustible cartridges and bought this type of ammunition from a variety of manufacturers. Colt and DC Sage were the top two. Powder charges varied a little but were pretty mild. In the 36 Navy the conical weighed about 136 grains and the powder charge was 15 to 17 grains depending on the order/manufacturer. The Navy has a small loading port. It may have been that a larger cartridge would not be able to fit in the loading port and be rammed. The western lawmen used combustibles for fast reloading and carried them as back up ammunition but they would start the day loading from a flask and using a ball because much more powder could be used. The balls back then were different, the sprue was visiable and flat and if centered in front it was sort of like a semi-wadcutter and might have hit harder. I personally can't load much more than around 22 grains of fffg real black powder. If some folks can cram in 25 grains- more power to them. For most shooting I use a pre-lubed wad (no Crisco). The procedure is an 18 grain powder charge, the pre-lubed wad, the round ball. This is a fairly powerful load but still pleasant to shoot and easy on the gun. I have but don't often shoot conicals. They are not as accurate. In the Old West plenty of folks went to their reward getting laid low with just a regular round ball from a Colt Navy. Finally on this small charge with cream of wheat filler. If you are not careful you might erroneously think "well this is a target load so it must be more accurate". I've always gotten better accuracy with a larger powder charge. The cream of wheat folks are trying to save money on the powder.