Nazi Germany

[leadcounsel]

Weird - I overheard almost a WWII weapon story at a gunshow in TN a few weeks ago. I was standing within earshot of a guy who said his family had a rifle (I think he said an authentic bringback Nazi Mauser or Russian Mosin Nagant) that his grandfather got in trade from said Soldier after the war in the ruins of a city; the owner of the rifle was starving and the guy's grandfather gave him some rations for the rifle. Now the rifle is worth more than a house!

As for the OP story, it may be plausible, but much of the story is too embellished or fictional to believe.

[EdInk]

More than a house?

Embelishment abound.

[johnwilliamson062]

What does one of those tank rifles used for sniping later on go for?

[Uncle Buck]

I have written to the holocaust museum about the lipstick story and any info on weapons made by prisoners or in the ghettos. No reply yet.

Further checking with family members who still live in the area my grandfather worked in said that (Jim was right) the agreement was the factory would be retooled to support the war effort if needed. It was probably the fact the workers were used to working with that type of machinery that they had the agreement.

[mete]

History Channel had a program filmed by the Danish underground .They were making SMGs in a toy factory right under the noses of the Nazis !!
When I was a kid in Brooklynn some BGs made zip guns ,a very simple single shot 22LR, automobile antenna barrel ,wooden handle ,nail for firing pin and rubber band to drive the firing pin !

[andrewstorm]

Fact is stranger than fiction,and the resistance against the nazis was fierce ,that was part of the reason for the camps to destroy the oppisition,by inprisonment ,forced labor slow starvation,escaped polish jews took a big chunk out of hitlers war machine,as did french underground,i could go on and on,not only plausible but probobul

[hickstick_10]

Fact is stranger than fiction,and the resistance against the nazis was fierce ,that was part of the reason for the camps to destroy the oppisition,by inprisonment ,forced labor slow starvation,escaped polish jews took a big chunk out of hitlers war machine,as did french underground,i could go on and on,not only plausible but probobu

That a man of unknown military experience killed over 20 heavily armed and well trained german officers with a homegrown 22 is possible (but so is getting hit by a falling soviet satellite) but not probable.

A man sneaking the gun into the camps is possible as well, so is him and his wife surviving the war........all possible.

But having all those things happen in sequence.............ya its possible.

Sure as hell not probable

Getting sent to a detention camp for killing officers in wartime?

Impossible

[James K]

There was certainly some effective resistance to German occupation during WWII, but too much fiction has blown it out of proportion. The French resistance was well armed, thanks to British arms drops, but they had little effect on the war effort, being a nuisance to the Germans, but without significant effect. (Also, the most effective fighters in the FFI were Communists who really didn't care as much about getting rid of the Germans as making sure they took over France after the Germans left.)

I knew some Poles who were in the underground, and they killed some Germans, but they were under no illusion that they could win the war alone. The tragedy was that the Russians, on Stalin's orders, deliberately held off entering Warsaw until the Germans and the Poles killed each other off. The Russians hoped all the patriotic Poles would be killed so they would not resist the Communist dictatorship the Russians planned to impose. Of course, the Russians, just as anti-Semitic as the Germans, also hoped all the Jews would be killed, and most were.

Another romantic myth, also supported mostly by fiction, is that of a vast anti-Nazi underground in Germany. The entire "underground" probably consisted of a hundred people or less; not until some Army officers became disillusioned with Hitler was there any real opposition ("Unternehmung Walküre"), and it turned out in the end to be ineffective and probably increased support for Hitler. The fact is that, no matter what Germans said after the war, popular support for Hitler was real, and the vast majority of the German people supported both the country and its Nazi leadership throughout the war. After the war, Germans kept calling WWII "Hitlerskrieg" or "Hitler's war", as if Der Führer flew all those planes and drove all those tanks by himself. Or at least that is what they wanted to believe.

Jim

[johnwilliamson062]

escaped polish jews took a big chunk out of hitlers war machine,as did french underground

It really depends who does the analysis. IMO the good objective analysis I have encountered indicates almost no effect beyond a moral boost for the populace that did not really support the Germans. The Germans were very effective in attacking resistance groups.

,i could go on and on

Last I checked this was an internet forum, so go for it.

[bigjack59]

Escaped Polish Jews? Big Chunk of Nazi Germany? I would guess from all the sources I have read, there were precious few that escaped from the ghettoes to fight, and those that did, many were turned over to the Germans by the local Poles and even the Polish resistance. To think someone shot 20 German officers with a zip gun, got sent to a concentration camp for it instead of being hung immediately, and then survived the camp with his wife is I think insulting to the true horrors Jews and the millions of other s suffered in those years. Someone turn this into a "My AR (AK) is better than your AK (AR) thread, this one is science fiction.

[Gunplummer]

How about the two resistance fighters that jumped into Checkoslovakia to kill Heydrich? Early in the war, no heavy guard units in the area, and they still screwed it up. They throw a bomb in an open car, open up with submachine guns, kill the driver and wound Heydrich. Heydrich stands up, hauls out a pistol and runs them off. He may have been a real son of a bitch but at least he had moxie. From what I gathered by reading and talking to vets, most but not all resistance hit low risk units, such as cooks moving early, supply movements, things like that. Poland was another story, they had guts and nothing to lose.

[ncpatriot]

I'm waiting for a book from my niece about the Bielski brothers of Belarus, Jews who organized, hid people in the wilderness and fought the Nazis as they could, mostly guerilla fighting I think. I need to read up again on the Warsaw ghetto uprising, where only a handful of Jews found weapons and fought the Nazis. I had a Jewish friend in an office where I use to work. He was scared to death of guns. I brought up why people should be armed, used Holocaust as a specific example. He hemmed and hawed and never came up with much of an answer. Gun control has always been used to oppress someone. Jews, American Indians, slaves and free Blacks. I read sometime back that gun control laws in Sudan are aimed at the Black Christian people of the South. The Arabs of the North are
allowed whatever they wish. Blacks of the South have little or no chance of buying arms or ammunition. They are at the mercy of Arab "gangaweed" militias.

[James K]

For some reason I can't understand, there is a lot of mythology about WWII and the Holocaust among Jews. I knew one elderly American Jewish woman, now gone, who never seemed to understand what happened in Germany and Europe. She insisted that the Gestapo was like the KKK and should have been hauled into court "by the government". I tried to explain that the KKK, while evil, is a private organization, while the Gestapo WAS the government, the equivalent in some ways of the FBI.* She never could grasp the idea of "the government" being responsible for mass killing and just knew that the Nazis were a gang of hoodlums who somehow escaped the notice of German law enforcement!

*The general mission, to prevent internal subversion and stop external sabotage and espionage, is the same. The difference is that the FBI works within the laws of a democratic nation, while the Gestapo worked for a dictatorship, and made its own laws.

Jim

[mp25ds4]

could it possibly be that his uncle through in the part "thats why he went straight to Auchwits" because that was his own personal idea?
I will say that someone would have to be extremely good at what they did to kill 20 officers without being discovered

[johnwilliamson062]

Flame and Citron of Holge Danske good?
There were resistance fighters who topped 20. They had almost a decade to accomplish this task. That is only 2 officers a year which is not a tall order. They just had to get lucky and not get caught for the duration of the war.

[andrewstorm]

MR KEENAN,as you may well know,hitler extorted his way into the chancellorship,the nazis destroyed the oppisition much like the italian mafia,and created the ora of fear of death,at the hands of the nazis,the regular army,luftwaff ,navy ,police, citizens,all feared for thier own lives and the life of loved ones,each SS officer could kill anyone outside thier ranks at any time,I disagree that most of the german people supported the war,they just couldnt say anything against the furer,much like if you worked for tony soprano and wanted to defect,only fools rush to death oh and general custer,oh and the nazis were an private organization that took over the german government,in very short order.

[johnwilliamson062]

nazis were an private organization that took over the german government

Yeah, but the Gestapo was part of the government...

Have you seen video of the big rallies BEFORE the Nazis were totally in power. They did not seem short of support from the populace. Most people are sheep without a willingness to sacrifice for principles and will live under any government as long as they don't feel personally threatened. Heck, look at how many Jews stuck around long after it was obvious the new German government had it out for them.

[44 AMP]

A thumbnail sketch;

The Nazis were a political party. Nationalsozialistiche Deutsches Arbiters Partie (National Socialist German Workers Party).
In 1926, the Nazis tried to overthrow the govt. of Bavaria (the Munich beer hall putsch). They failed. Hitler was arrested and spent a couple years in jail (where he wrote Mein Kampf). After his release, Hitler concentrated on gaining power legally. And by that I mean the Nazis did not again try to overthrow the existing government. They relied on the violent "politics" of the Brownshirts, and their propaganda.

In 1928, the Nazi party got just 2.6% of the national vote, gaining just 12 seats in the Reichstag. In 1929, the US stock market crashed, and our banks called in the loans that were propping up the German economy. Their econonmy crashed, and crashed harder than ours did.

In 1930, the Nazis won 107 seats in the Reichstag. By 1932, they won 230 seats, and effective control of the government. Hitler promised the desperate German people "hope and change" and became Chancellor at the end of Jan 1933. The Reichstag fire in Feb 1933 (a terrorist act), blamed on the Communists, was used as justification for passage of the Enabling act, which effectively dissolved democratic government in Germany and made Hitler dictator.

The Gestapo (Geheime Staats Polezei -Secret State Police) were an official arm of the Nazi government.

However, contrary to popular belief, they could not do what ever they wanted to everyone, until 1943. German citizens (those with "correct" genetics in the Nazi view) had legal rights. If the Gestapo picked up Onkel Max because he was drunk on a street corner and shouting "Hitler is a stinker", until 1943 his family could go to a German court, and the court could order his release (seldom) or at least inform the family where, and why he was being held. "Good" German citizens who ran afoul of the "law" got trials, untermenchen (Jews, gypsies, and everyone else the Nazis considered undesirable) did not.

In early 1943, the Nazis passed the Nacht und Nebel decree (Night and Fog), removing the right of the "good" Germans to go to court against the Gestapo, and from there, the reign of terror applied to everyone under Nazi rule. People who complained disappeared, and those who asked about them, did too!

But it all began legally, by fanatics who sold a bill of goods to a people desperate for someone (who wasn't a communist) to lead them out of the mess they were in. Remember that the Nazis controlled the media. There was no free press. Radio and the papers said only what the Nazis wanted them to. They controlled, very tightly, the information the people got. Most Americans have a hard time believing that most Germans didn't know what was going on. I don't. Rumors and whispers in back rooms are not the stuff that kindles large scale resistance. Think about it.

[Wildalaska]

I had a long post prepared but the heck with it, you guys just keep arguing your misinfornmation and pop history.

Me, I am perfectly content to know that out there, in reality, there are a whole bunch of people who would bump me off if they get the chance SOLELY because my genes originated in the Middle east 2000 years ago.

Thats cool, I'm a good shot. Hell, I just put two shots out of a .455 Webley 6 inches apart on a 12x12 target at 100 yards.

I see a jew hater, I say shalom and invite them to crawl out from under their rocks and take me on I'm a demon on Craig's List sometimes

Now you know why I look askance at guys who worry all the time about "threats". Y'all dont know what threats are.

I think I'll carry my .38 webley with the israeli markings

WildandthisbunchinwashingtonisbadtooAlaska TM

[johnwilliamson062]

Rumors and whispers in back rooms are not the stuff that kindles large scale resistance. Think about it.

This is a good point I never thought about before. To put what you said in context I thought about blue helmets. If I believed every rumor about the government I heard I would have to believe an invasion of blue helmeted UN troops was just around the corner, among other things. Actually, this line of thought, has me, for the first time in my life actually thinking about a blue helmet invasion. Nice going .

I don't buy your argument totally, but joe shmoe who shines shoes for a living and hears wild stories all day probably heard the rumor but honestly didn't believe it. I mean the oficer from the Reichstag just told him Hitler is nailing the bakers wife and that is why her husband was sent to the front and no one can buy bread anymore.
His great uncle, who works at the railyard, and daily sees Jews pass through on their way to camps and talked to the people guarding those trains casually probably KNEW and just didn't worry about it.

It is amazing what becomes acceptable in a climate of hate. When your neighbors will stand alongside you and/or help you do something terrible and everyone knows the police will not intervene. The US south and many other examples that are of shorter term exist within the US.

[James K]

Oh boy, a whole lot of misinformation, so I'll do just a few points. The Gestapo was originally the Prussian state (Staat) secret police. It was absorbed by the national government under Hitler and its powers expanded. It was concerned with state security, not arresting Onkel Max for having too many beers; that was the job of the ordinary cops, the Schutzpolizei. The Schutzstaffel (SS) was a Nazi party organization, and not part of the German government. They were originally the protection service for Hitler and other Nazi party officials. After Hitler became chancellor, the SS was expanded to include the para-military Waffen-SS. Membership was not all black uniforms and boots - to belong to the SS was considered an honor and many ordinary people joined for a number of reasons, including the fact that SS members got a larger gasoline ration than non-members. To some, it was the "in thing", like belonging to an exclusive club or going to a rock concert.

Hitler attained power in a perfectly legal and constitutional manner, under a parliamentary system. His dictatorial powers were granted by the Reichstag under a constitutional provision allowing for emergency powers. (Note that the US has a law allowing a president just such powers in a national emergency.)

As to the support of the German people, I will say again that there was almost no resistance to the Nazis even before Hitler gained absolute control; only toward the end was support gained through fear. After the Rheinland incident, Hitler called for a plebicite and got a resounding victory (I think it was 98.5%) in a free election with a large turnout. And don't forget that all those tens of thousands of people cheering, crying, and screaming "Sieg Heil" were NOT bussed in or forced to attend the rallies (unlike the practice in the USSR or modern China); they were there because they wanted to be there to cheer their hero.

I have spoken to a number of Germans, including some who hated Americans. Many tried the "Hitlerskrieg" dodge, but most were honest about support for Hitler and seemed literally not to know what happened or why they went along. Many said that Hitler changed after he got into office, and that might even be true, though I do not believe it. The best explanation is that they were caught up in the moment, like football fans after a Super Bowl win by an underdog team, and saw the Nazis as being the dawn in a Germany that had become very dark indeed.

Most Americans believe that such a thing could not happen here, and maybe it couldn't. We are probably a more cynical and a more diverse society, but we must continually be alert for politicians of the right or the left who have those kinds of ideas. So far, our presidents have been dedicated to democracy and the constitution (yes, even Obama and Bush, no matter what partisans of the right and left would try to make us believe). I hope we never make the mistake of electing a Hitler.

Jim

[44 AMP]

And the reason we must always be vigiliant, and why we oppose every encroachment of our rights.

I hope we never make the mistake of electing a Hitler.

Because some people have hidden agendas. Because people change. Because even though they may say one thing, they can do another. And once things reach a tipping point, votes mno longer matter. Even laws fail to have effect beyond what those in power are willing to accept.

Like no other nation in history, we are better equipped to resist it, but, and make no mistake, it CAN happen here.

And that's why there is so much wild rhetoric, on all sides of the political aisles. History has shown, time and again, that when the people become desperate enough (and the tipping point varies with the culture), they will support whom ever looks to be best able to make good on the promise of better times.

[Chris_B]

Not sure this should turn into a current events US political thread, fellas

[kodiakbeer]

Late to the feast, but I'm absolutely convinced that home-made guns were manufactured by Jews, though in the Warsaw and Krakow ghetto - not in Germany.

I'd be surprised if any of those still existed after the fighting. Any German soldier picking one up would probably chuckle before crushing it with his rifle butt. Any Jew using one would probably throw it away after he killed a German and got his hands on a real firearm.

There were a lot of very stubborn Polish Jews who wouldn't go along with the various "get in the oven" regulations.

[kodiakbeer]

Interesting google hits:

Object on left is a home-made grenade from the Warsaw Ghetto uprising.



Two more homemade grenades from the Warsaw ghetto uprising:
Filipinka (right) and Sidolówka on exhibition in the Museum of the Warsaw Rising



Stubborn Jews in Warsaw refusing to take the train to the idyllic village of Auschwitz:




http://www.ptla.us/Period1/WarsawGhetto.html