Found in the West Texas Desert - No Headstamp

AFVet · December 4, 2017, 04:55 PM

I thought I was good at google but I'm having a hard time nailing this down. Hoping an expert can help me identify what exactly it is.

Smoke & Recoil · December 4, 2017, 05:03 PM

I can only lead you to the book, (Cartridges of the World). A lot of information
covering obsolete cartridges in that.

Smoke & Recoil · December 4, 2017, 05:07 PM

Check this on ebay https://www.ebay.com/itm/Cartridges-...sAAOSwjW9ZlhPu

Scorch · December 4, 2017, 07:10 PM

44 Game Getter or 44 Colt Lightning.

**Mike Irwin** · December 5, 2017, 10:40 AM

You need to give us the case head diameter, the rim diameter, and the case length.

It's too difficult to tell what those measurements are by trying to read your photographs of your micrometer dial.

kraigwy · December 5, 2017, 12:17 PM

I just took a measurement of an empty case. What you have appears to be an old 50-70 govt. spent case.

T. O'Heir · December 5, 2017, 02:22 PM

"...appears to be an old 50-70 Govt. spent case..." Might be 19th Century vintage too. U.S. Army from 1866 to 1873. Assorted natives, like Geronimo, after that.
http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd5070government.jpg
Where in the West Texas Desert?

Scorch · December 7, 2017, 01:14 AM

Not .50-70, the head measurement is .470", almost .100" smaller than a .50-70 cartridge base size. Case length is 1.3", .050" shorter than the .50-70 Gov't. I still say 44 Game Getter or 44 Colt Lightning.

It is a balloon head cartridge case, so the period we are talking about is about right, late 19th Century.

Quote:

Where in the West Texas Desert?

In west Texas, of course! Pretty sure it's west of east Texas. But as big as Texas is, you never know!

Dufus · December 8, 2017, 01:32 AM

Quote:

the head measurement is .470"

I blew the picture up and he did not measure the 0.470" across the rim. The measurement is actually just in front of the rim re: case body.

He should have measured across the rim.

The last picture shows the case to be 1.300" long and the 50-70 case is 1.750".

bedbugbilly · December 8, 2017, 10:34 PM

I think I'm getting a bit confused with all the measurements that are being given. Here are the measurements for the 45 Colt. If the length is 1.3, it is close to a 45 Colt. How doe the measurements of the actual using in question line up with the following? Remove hat this is a spent casing that has been fired in a chamber of unknown dimensions. I have some fired 45 Colt balloon casings but unfortunately, they are back in MI and I am in AZ so I don't have access to measure some of them.

45 Colt
Case type Rimmed, straight
Bullet diameter .454 in (11.5 mm)
Neck diameter .480 in (12.2 mm)
Base diameter .480 in (12.2 mm)
Rim diameter .512 in (13.0 mm)
Rim thickness .060 in (1.5 mm)
Case length 1.285 in (32.6 mm)
Overall length 1.600 in (40.6 mm)

Scorch · December 9, 2017, 10:40 PM

Quote:

I blew the picture up and he did not measure the 0.470" across the rim. The measurement is actually just in front of the rim re: case body

I didn't say he measured the rim, I said he measured the case head. The case head is not the rim, it is the point in front of the rim. The case body diameter is farther up the case and can vary because many cases are tapered. The points to measure are the case rim, the case head, the shoulder if any, the case mouth, and the case length.

Gaucho Gringo · December 10, 2017, 05:08 AM

Apparently the OP gave up on this because he has not responded in 5 days and it was his first post. Another drive by.

Double Naught Spy · December 15, 2017, 08:00 AM

AFVet hasn't been back since he posted the query.

**Mike Irwin** · December 15, 2017, 10:35 AM

You want to fight Texas v. Canada?

Do it somewhere else.

BillM · December 15, 2017, 11:09 AM

Diameter just in front of rim .470? Case length 1.3? Bottleneck case, no neck diameter
given. If the neck is in the .415-.420 range and the rim is .525ish--- 38 WCF (38-40)

FWIW--that long taper from case body to neck and a relatively short
straight neck section is typical of fired 38-40. The straight neck is much
longer on loaded ammo.

Pathfinder45 · January 9, 2018, 06:38 PM

I vote that it's a 44-40. If not, then it's a 38-40.

Hawg · January 9, 2018, 06:53 PM

Quote:

I still say 44 Game Getter or 44 Colt Lightning.

What are you calling a .44 Lightening? AFAIK there was no cartridge by that name. The Colt Lightening was originally chambered in 44-40 but in a variety of calibers later on. The model 1877 revolver was chambered in .32 Colt, .38 Long Colt and a .41 Long Colt.

**Mike Irwin** · January 10, 2018, 10:47 AM

Wanna bet?

Yes, tacitly, it was a .44-40, but it was decidedly identified as a separate cartridge.

Same with the .38-40.

Good discussion here of the CLMR cartridges.

http://www.oldammo.com/august13.htm

http://www.icollector.com/Box-of-Uni...fles_i10496430

Scorch · January 20, 2018, 05:25 PM

Quote:

What are you calling a .44 Lightening? AFAIK there was no cartridge by that name

Just trying to inject some humor here. FYI, yes, there was a cartridge called the 44 Colt Lightning. And a 44 Game Getter. And a 44 Marlin. Probably others, as well. They were all variations of the 44 WCF, or 44-40 as Colt called it, with different bullet weights or just different names for manufacturers who did not want to put Winchester's name on their guns. So, 44-40.

December 4, 2017, 05:03 PM	#2
Smoke & Recoil Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: East shore of Lake Michigan. Posts: 714	I can only lead you to the book, (Cartridges of the World). A lot of information covering obsolete cartridges in that. __________________ Sent from my Tandy 1000

December 4, 2017, 05:07 PM	#3
Smoke & Recoil Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: East shore of Lake Michigan. Posts: 714	Check this on ebay https://www.ebay.com/itm/Cartridges-...sAAOSwjW9ZlhPu __________________ Sent from my Tandy 1000

December 4, 2017, 07:10 PM	#4
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	44 Game Getter or 44 Colt Lightning. __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

December 5, 2017, 10:40 AM	#5
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	You need to give us the case head diameter, the rim diameter, and the case length. It's too difficult to tell what those measurements are by trying to read your photographs of your micrometer dial. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

December 5, 2017, 12:17 PM	#6
kraigwy Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 11,061	I just took a measurement of an empty case. What you have appears to be an old 50-70 govt. spent case. __________________ Kraig Stuart CPT USAR Ret USAMU Sniper School Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071

December 5, 2017, 02:22 PM	#7
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"...appears to be an old 50-70 Govt. spent case..." Might be 19th Century vintage too. U.S. Army from 1866 to 1873. Assorted natives, like Geronimo, after that. http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd5070government.jpg Where in the West Texas Desert? __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

December 8, 2017, 10:34 PM	#10
bedbugbilly Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2009 Posts: 3,287	I think I'm getting a bit confused with all the measurements that are being given. Here are the measurements for the 45 Colt. If the length is 1.3, it is close to a 45 Colt. How doe the measurements of the actual using in question line up with the following? Remove hat this is a spent casing that has been fired in a chamber of unknown dimensions. I have some fired 45 Colt balloon casings but unfortunately, they are back in MI and I am in AZ so I don't have access to measure some of them. 45 Colt Case type Rimmed, straight Bullet diameter .454 in (11.5 mm) Neck diameter .480 in (12.2 mm) Base diameter .480 in (12.2 mm) Rim diameter .512 in (13.0 mm) Rim thickness .060 in (1.5 mm) Case length 1.285 in (32.6 mm) Overall length 1.600 in (40.6 mm) __________________ If a pair of '51 Navies were good enough for Billy Hickok, then a single Navy on my right hip is good enough for me . . . besides . . . I'm probably only half as good as he was anyways. Hiram's Rangers Badge #63

December 10, 2017, 05:08 AM	#12
Gaucho Gringo Senior Member Join Date: May 17, 2007 Location: Vancouver, WA Posts: 366	Apparently the OP gave up on this because he has not responded in 5 days and it was his first post. Another drive by. __________________ 357 Taurus Gaucho, 22 Heritage RR, 2-Pietta 1858 44 NMA Remingtons, Pietta, Euroarms & ASM 36 1851 Navies, 31 Uberti 1849, 12 ga H&R Topper, 16 Ga Western Field, 43 Spanish Remington Rolling Block, 44 ASM Colt Walker, High Point C9 9mm, Winchester 1906 22, Rossi 62 22 rifle, Uberti 1860, H&A & IJ 32 S&W BreakTop, 36 Euroarms 1858, 32 H&R 04, 22mag NAA SS BP revolver, .44 Rodgers & Spencer, IJ 38 S&W BreakTop, IJ 22 Sealed 8

December 15, 2017, 08:00 AM	#13
Double Naught Spy Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX Posts: 12,717	AFVet hasn't been back since he posted the query. __________________ "If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange

December 15, 2017, 10:35 AM	#14
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	You want to fight Texas v. Canada? Do it somewhere else. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

December 15, 2017, 11:09 AM	#15
BillM Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2009 Location: Amity Oregon Posts: 791	Diameter just in front of rim .470? Case length 1.3? Bottleneck case, no neck diameter given. If the neck is in the .415-.420 range and the rim is .525ish--- 38 WCF (38-40) FWIW--that long taper from case body to neck and a relatively short straight neck section is typical of fired 38-40. The straight neck is much longer on loaded ammo.

January 9, 2018, 06:38 PM	#16
Pathfinder45 Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2008 Posts: 3,224	I vote that it's a 44-40. If not, then it's a 38-40.

January 10, 2018, 10:47 AM	#18
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	Wanna bet? Yes, tacitly, it was a .44-40, but it was decidedly identified as a separate cartridge. Same with the .38-40. Good discussion here of the CLMR cartridges. http://www.oldammo.com/august13.htm http://www.icollector.com/Box-of-Uni...fles_i10496430 __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

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