First post in this Forum

[jurupari]

but here we go. I'll try to keep a quicker pace - if work allows - to finish this search.

Here are three more rifles (by the way, does a clear definition of the terms rifle, musket and carbine - and of the differences among them - exist? in general they are used almost as synonymous).

The first one looks like a sports weapon, can't see a way to load a magazine into it. The second one is a muzzle-loaded rifle, and I think a better identification is practically impossible. The third one ... well, I'll leave it to you... maybe once again Bubba passed by? the barrel looks too short...

As always, thanks for your kindness and... how can I say? ...persistence?...

Tommaso

[SDC]

The first one is easy; either a Remington Nylon 66, or its Brazilian copy (the Nylon 66 was made in Brazil for Remington anyway, and Companhia Brasiliera de Cartuchos (CBC) continued making it for domestic sales afterwards); it's in 22LR, and feeds from a magazine tube in the butt of the rifle.
The second one is a muzzle-loading percussion rifle of some sort, but it doesn't appear to be factory-made; there are still areas of the world (the Amazon Basin included) where these sorts of guns are still made and used by backyard gunsmiths.
The third one is a military Mauser carbine, but I'd need to know the markings on the receiver, the calibre, and the barrel length to know which specific one.

[Jim Watson]

Agreed, Remington Nylon 66 or the CBC copy and a backwoods blacksmith muzzleloader of some sort.

The third is what is known as a "small ring" Mauser, likely a model of 1893 or 1895. They were used by many South American armies, most in caliber 7mm Mauser also known as 7x57 from the barrel bore diameter and cartridge case length. As SDC says, it is impossible to identify more closely without reading the markings. It looks like the front end of the stock under the muzzle has been hacked on by Bubba the caipira.

Terminology:
A "musket" is a muzzleloading smoothbore military weapon standard in the 17th, 18th, and early 19th centuries. It may be fired by either flintlock or percussion cap. Or by matchlock for the very old guns.

A "rifle" is any shoulder fired weapon that has a rifled barrel. That is, it has spiral grooves down the length of the barrel bore to spin the bullet for gyroscopic stability giving greater accuracy and range. There are muzzleloading rifles, breechloading single shot rifles like the Comblain, manually operated repeaters like the Mauser, and semiautomatic or fully automatic weapons like the FN-FAL.

A "carbine" is in most cases a shortened rifle. When bolt action rifles were issued by many armies, a service rifle might have a barrel length near 30 inches, while the carbine had an 18 inch barrel but was otherwise similar. Eventually many armies struck a compromise near 24 inches to give a "short rifle" easier to handle than the earlier rifle but without as much disturbing muzzle blast and recoil as the carbine.

The distinction between rifle and carbine is different in sporting arms - a Winchester expert can go on at length about the differences between a carbine and a "short rifle" even though they both have the same length barrel.

[jurupari]

Late once again, but here we are. Last three rifles -and automatic guns: from next post on, only pistols!
Apart for the automatic SMG - should be a Brazil-made INA - the other two guns look heavily Bubba-ed. Is n. 39 a Winchester?

- Jim, two questions. First: what ring does the "small ring" of Mauser refer to?
Second: a "musket" only refers to muzzle-loading weapons? or does it have a more modern meaning? For example, the Comblain rifle was often called, in Portuguese, a "mosquetao Comblain", a Comblain "big musket", or simply a "mosqueto"; same for the Italian mod. 91 rifle, often referred to as "moschetto 91".

Bad news from my Brazilian museologist friend: the budget for the museum was cut of about 30%... hard times...

No need to say - as always- thanks for your patience and kindness

[Jim Watson]

In order:

I think no 37 is a .22 semiautomatic rifle but the make and model are unknown to me. The barrel is shorter than would be legal in the USA. Either it was made for a market where that is not the case or it was shortened. At least the front sight was re-installed after shortening the barrel.

No 38 is indeed another example of the Madsen submachine gun, likely made by INA.

No 39 is a model 92 (1892) Winchester lever action rifle or a copy thereof. The Winchester 92 has been copied by Rossi in Brazil and by Garate Anituay in Spain under the El Tigre trademark. El Tigres were traded all over the world, many in Latin America; the Rossi is a more modern reproduction.
Again, the barrel (and the tubular magazine under it) are shorter than usual. While Winchester did manufacture some rifles with 12 to 14 inch barrels, known as the "trapper model", this one may also have been cut down from a standard rifle. If so, Bubba was more consientious than many, he reinstalled the front sight and repositioned the supporting ring connecting the magazine and barrel.

Terminology:

The English dictionary definition of "musket" is a smoothbore muzzleloader.
Use of the term "mosquetao" for the Comblain and "moschetto" for the 1891 Carcano may be a holdover from earlier years or it may be due to usages in the Romance languages, I don't know.

I found that moschetto is in the Italian model designations for both the bolt action 1891 carbines and their many submachine guns. From this I assume that moschetto is the diminutive form because it is used for short shoulder weapons. Perhaps the cognate of the English "musketoon" for a short barrelled muzzleloader.
The long 1891 infantry rifle is the "Fusile Modelo 91". Historically the "fusil" was a long but light muzzleloader carried by officers who wanted a more effective weapon than a sabre and a pistol. The inexpensive muzzleloaders traded to Indians in the North American fur trade were fusils.

"Small ring" (or "large ring") describes the receiver ring of a Mauser rifle. The reciever ring is the strong portion of the action that the barrel screws into. A small ring action, models from 1891 to 1896, had that ring the same diameter as the rest of the receiver. The large ring action of 1898 has a receiver ring larger in diameter than the balance of the action. It is most easily seen as a pronounced step on the left side at the front of the action opening over the magazine.


I am sorry to hear of the budget cut. That will indeed make for hard times for your friend the museologist. I hope we can continue, supporting the identification programme is a pleasure and an honor for me and I hope my amateur contributions are of use.

[Hawg]

My two cents on #39 is it's a Winchester model 92 short rifle. The pic is dark but it's obvious it has no barrel band as per rifles. Carbines had a barrel band with the front sight mounted behind it. Most repro carbines have the front sight mounted on the barrel band. Also there no band around the forearm like on a carbine instead it has a long forearm with a nose cap which is why the barrel looks so short. It's actually a 20 inch barrel. Hard to tell from the pic but the barrel should be octagonal. Here's a link to EMF repros which are pretty dang close to the originals. http://www.iar-arms.com/1892-winchester-rifle.htm

[Jim Watson]

I agree it is a short rifle, the foreend cap and dovetailed magazine tube ring are visible if you cross your eyes and squint a bit... or enhance the picture. Not to mention the crescent buttplate.

But it is a VERY short rifle. Unless the picture was taken at enough of an angle to introduce a lot of parallax, the barrel is about 12 inches long. Scaling off the computer monitor, the barrel is shorter than the length of pull of the stock. The pull on the '92 in the next room is just under 13 inches.

Winchester used shorter foreends on short rifles, this one has that but it still looks snubnose because of the very short barrel. The EMF copy does not bother with that and looks out of proportion even at 20".

[Hawg]

You may be right. I'm thinking the short rifle had the longer rifle forearm and the pic is so dark it's hard to tell.

[jurupari]

let's start with something easy... two of the three weapons have labels on them, only need to confirm the labels are exact. The third (no. 42) should be what in Brazil is called a "garrucha", a two-barreled kind of pistol that, I'm told, is still produced by, e.g., Rossi. Any more detailed information is welcome.

About the Winchester: what could be the "useful" range for such a short - or shortened - weapon? 300ft? 150ft?

As for the budget cut, it also means a reduction of displaying space, and only a small portion of the weapons are going to be visible to the public. Just a pity, but pistols are more likely - as they are smaller - to be on display.

Thanks - I'm becoming monotonous - to you, Jim, and to Hawg Heggen.

[Hawg]

I'd have said the top pic was a Howdah used for last ditch defense while hunting tigers in India. Maybe the garrucha is a rifled version of same.
I don't know about the second pic but the markings on the Beretta back up the label.

The short barreled Winchester would still have a good 75 yard range.

[SDC]

The "garrucha" is similar to a "boot pistol", and they were normally chambered for a short .38/9mm rimmed cartridge, and is (or was) commonly used by South American cowboys. The second picture is of an Argentine-produced revolver that is about as close to an RG without actually being an RG as you can get; a die-cast zinc or pot-metal frame that probably won't last longer than a full box of ammunition. The Beretta is just what its markings say it is, but someone managed to break the trigger-guard off.

[Hawg]

I'd say they cut it off for quick access to the trigger.

[Jim Watson]

I agree with SDC and Hawg on the identity of those pistols.
I will add that the Garrucha is normally a cheap simple pistol and this appears to be an example of the low end of the market. A pistol for someone who cannot afford even a cheap revolver like the next gun.

I agree with Hawg, the trigger guard has probably been intentionally removed from the little Beretta. It is a separate part, not integral with the frame as is common in other guns. It is readily removed. Sometimes that is done to make the gun faster on the draw. It also makes it unsafe to the user and bystanders. That is also a bad idea, because the trigger guard is also the spring for the hinged barrel - the gun is loaded by hinging up the barrel and loading the chamber, then inserting a loaded magazine. So it can be loaded without exerting oneself by pulling back the operating slide against the recoil spring. I don't know if removal of the trigger guard would affect mechanical operation of the gun. Probably not, although care would have to be taken with loading and unloading with no spring tension on the barrel hinge.

This is a small gun of the type once known as a "vest pocket pistol". It is small, light, and convenient to carry, but very low powered in the 6.35 mm (.25 ACP) calibre.

[jurupari]

with three more pistols. This time, I'm looking for two confirmations (no. 47 and 52) and sort of a post-mortem... see images. What's the caliber of no. 47?

As for the previous post, really the "Italo GRA" pistol looks more a cast-iron toy than a real weapon.

As for the Winchester rifle of two (my) posts ago, I found so much information about it! too much, indeed... What's the caliber? It looks that were issued three types going from .44 to .32.

[SDC]

The first one appears to be a Smith & Wesson 38 Hand Ejector of some sort, but there are people here that are a lot better on S&Ws than I am, so I'll leave that one to them; it looks like someone first removed, and then tried to re-install a trigger-guard on it.
The second one is a Colt 1903 Pocket Hammerless, and I'm sure someone here can even give you a date of manufacture with the serial number visible.
The third one APPEARS to be a Remington Model 51, in either 32 or 380 Auto, in pretty rough shape, but it should be pretty clearly marked as a Remington on the other side of the frame.

[Jim Watson]

I think No 47 is a COPY of a Smith and Wesson Hand Ejector revolver, probably from Spain. A real S&W has the trigger guard integral with the frame, this gun has pin holes to retain a separate trigger guard which is missing here. Perhaps it came from the same Bubba as the little Beretta. The hammer pivot below the latch to swing out the cylinder is not a screw on a real S&W. The hammer is not quite the right shape. The pearl handles appear to have a S&W monogram medallion but they do not fit properly and are not likely original to the gun.
The second digit in the label is not readable. It might be caliber .38, there is a black powder .38 cartridge that is the Spanish equivalent of the old .38 Long Colt. It might be recent enough to be a .38 Special.
It might be caliber .32 which could be the .32 Winchester Center Fire also known as .32-20, that was a popular cartridge in Spanish copies. I am sorry there are so many "mights" but that is all I can tell.

No 52 is a Colt model of 1903 Pocket Hammerless in caliber .32 ACP = 7.65mm Browning. The serial number is legible, it was made in late 1919.
Condition is better than most guns in the collection, it still has its magazine, and it is still a desirable firearm in the USA.

No 55 is what remains of a nearly destroyed Remington Model 51 pistol made from 1918 til 1934. Caliber is (was) probably .380 ACP = 9mm Browning Short. They made some in .32 ACP but they are much less common. In that condition, it hardly matters.

[Jim Watson]

As SDC said, the ITALO revolver is a cheap copy of the cheap German Rohm RG 25. It is a real functional (sometimes) firearm, probably caliber .22.
[Editorial comment: The avalability of RGs contributed to the passage of legislation to restrict the importation of small firearms to the USA. That had little effect on criminal activity but protected US gun companies from foreign competition.]

The short or shortened Winchester rifle, no 39 above, is a model of 1892 and was available in a number of calibers, .25 WCF, .32 WCF, .38 WCF, and .44 WCF. It is not possible to tell for sure which from that picture. The size of the magazine tube indicates that it is either a .38 WCF (also known as .38-40 from the nominal caliber and the standard charge of black powder) or .44 WCF (.44-40.) It is most probably a .44 WCF.

[jurupari]

Three revolvers this time, only one with label.

I liked that "sometimes" adverb about the Italo... excuse my ignorance: what are RGs? Do US gun companies need a protectionist policy? never thought about that, they look they're doing pretty well.

What do you think about "personalizing" arms? I visited a site about the Mauser rifle, and there were pictures of modified guns that had almost nothing to do with the original weapon, only the action still persisting. If I had the luck of owning such a nice weapon (in good conditions, of course) I think I would keep it with no alterations.

Just for a change, thanks to you, Jim and to you, SDC. As I said once, not only identifications, but - maybe more - your comments are precious in this search, and I'm reporting all of them to my friend in Brazil.

[Jim Watson]

No 54, labeled as "Goliat, cal. .38" is a Spanish copy of a Colt Police Positive Special revolver. I have nothing about the maker other than the country of origin. The actual cartridge might be either .38 black powder similar to the obsolete .38 Long Colt or .38 Special.

No 56 is an interesting gun, a Spanish revolver which is made to look like a Smith & Wesson Military and Police but actually operates like a Colt. I do not know the name of the maker. The cylinder rotates clockwise like a Colt (S&W is anticlockwise) and the sideplate over the action parts is on the left side instead of the right like a real S&W. Caliber may be .38 as above or .32 WCF/.32-20.

No 57 is a Smith & Wesson Safety Hammerless, caliber .32 S&W. The design came out in 1888, I think this is a third model as made from 1909 til 1937. It is an ugly little gun but very popular, they made about 250,000 of them in three models, and as many more in five models of .38 caliber. It is not truly hammerless, just that the hammer is internal. The bar down the back of the grip is a safety which must be depressed by the grasp of the shooter to let the gun fire.

[Jim Watson]

Comments:

RGs are cheap pistols and revolvers made in Germany by Rohm GmbH. I have seen revolvers from .22 short up to .44 Magnum; automatic pistols in .22 and .25 calibers, and a double barrelled .38 derringer. Their importation to the USA was banned in 1968 under the guise of crime control by preventing the sale of small pistols. Here described as "Saturday Night Specials" due to the custom of people in poor districts getting drunk on Saturday night and starting fights with knives and such cheap guns as they could afford.

It was not long before there was a domestic industry in cheap guns to fill the vacancy in the market, the law did not affect local manufacture.

However, the law, the Gun Control Act of 1968, also banned ANY gun below a certain size and kept many high quality small guns off the US market too. It greatly reduced sales by Browning and Walther here. These are the pistols that Colt and Smith & Wesson were just as glad to see removed from the market. They did not care about the cheap guns, but were glad of the trade protection from good quality imported weapons.

[Jim Watson]

Personalized guns:

There has been a good business in custom firearms in a big market like the USA for a long time. The practice of converting military actions to handsome sporting arms is commonly called "sporterizing." It can be done very nicely, reasonably well, or at the Bubba level.
One of the most famous here is the Springfield rifle converted to sporting style for President Theodore Roosevelt for an African Safari in 1909.

There is now a good deal of opposition to modifying firearms of historical interest, both military and commercial. Almost any alteration of a sound service rifle or pistol will be dismissed as Bubba work, even if well done and to the taste of the owner. There are so many guns available that have already been altered to some extent that you can have one redone to produce a "personalized" gun without devaluing what many see as a Historical Artifact.

I know that a Colt model 1911 .45 automatic pistol in good condition and unaltered as issued to the US armed forces in World War I or II is worth substantially more money to a collector than a new pistol of the same type.

[SDC]

No problem at all, Jurupari; playing "name that gun" is a time-honoured hobby among gun cranks, and it's enjoyable to boot. An "RG" is one of a large number of cheap handguns built by Rohm Gesellschaft, a German company; before the US Gun Control Act of 1968 (passed as a result of the assassination of Kennedy), large numbers of these cheap guns were imported into the US. Italy, Spain, and other countries all had similar makes and models of cheap handguns that were essentially "dumped" into the US, and they made up the bulk of what are called "saturday night specials". The generic RG design was so popular, that after the GCA '68, the rights to produce those revolvers were bought by an American manufacturer so they could be built in the US (the bill outlawed the importation of those guns, but they could, and can, still legally be built in the US). Anyway, an "RG" is basically shorthand for any cheap handgun that you could basically consider "disposable", and that might or might not last for more than a box or two of ammunition. With that out of the way, onto the fun :-)

Picture 54 is of a Spanish-made "Goliat" revolver, made by Antonio Errasti of Eibar, in either 32 S&W Long, or 38 Special; it's a copy of a Colt Police Positive, but this one looks like the barrel has been chopped off, because it should have a half-moon front sight.

Picture 56 doesn't have enough detail for me to make out the logo on the grip, and the grips (and cylinder latch) may or may not even be original to the revolver to begin with; it appears to be another Colt Police Positive copy.

Picture 57 looks like a Smith & Wesson 38 Safety Hammerless, made in five different variations before 1940, it should be a 5-shot revolver in 38 S&W.
I hope this helps.

Edit to add: Jim posted THREE times while I was still looking through my books for #2 :-); the S&W Safety Hammerless was made in both 32 and 38 calibres.

[Jim Watson]

The Safety Hammerless appears to me to have the proportions of the .32 caliber version.

I don't have much to show the maker of those obscure copycat revolvers. There seem to have been a lot of them, though; even one pretty fair Triple Lock.

[jurupari]

It looks I can't keep a quicker pace; on the other side, works on the building in Brazil are being delayed (political reasons), so there's no need to hurry...

Three more pistols to search: one semi-auto (I think) and two revolvers.

I agree on most weapons - particularly pistols - being cheap copies: police - even military police, that is NOT a federal corps, but is State based and payed by, never was over-funded... not to speak of criminals, of course.

[SDC]

Image 58 is of a VERY-heavily-used FN-Browning M1900, in 32 Auto.
Image 59 looks like a Rossi Model 13 "Princess", in 22 LR, but it should have the calibre marked on the right side of the barrel.
Image 60 looks like a Webley Mark IV revolver in .455, but so many of these were copied by other manufacturers in other countries that I think we'd need to know the calibre or at least the markings to give you a more definitive answer. Most of these markings were stamped on the left side of the revolver, but I can't see them in the photo.