Lusting after an A400, or two...

lockedcj7 · September 18, 2016, 08:18 PM

I've been on a buying spree lately but I'm also suffering from a bit of gun lust.

I've decided that I have to have a Beretta A400 and possibly one for my son. We both have 11-87s that work perfectly well with no reliability issues. His is a 20 ga. youth synthetic. Mine is a 12 ga. special purpose synthetic.

I am fairly recoil sensitive but it doesn't prevent me from shooting the 11-87 well. My son is terrified of recoil but also isn't strong enough to hold his 11-87 up very long. On paper, it looks like a pair of A400s would be ideal.

Are they really that much better? Would an A400 in 20 ga. with the KO system recoil less than his 11-87? Would it be enough to matter?

mete · September 19, 2016, 03:21 AM

That gun is one of the most reliable and durable shotguns on the market.Go for it !

darkgael · September 19, 2016, 05:07 AM

You will save yourself about a half pound with the A400 (7.7lbs) vs. the 11-87 (8.25lbs).
That is the 12 gauge.

Pete

FITASC · September 19, 2016, 08:08 AM

I own two - the blue smurf gun (Xcel) to which I added some foreend weight for balance and now weighs 8# and the 3.5" green Xplor Unico which weighs right at 7#. Both of these handle my 3/4oz reloads with zero malfunctions or issues. The Xplor has the Kick-Off, the Xcel does not. While still comfortable to shoot, the lighter gun does impart more recoil due to the weight difference.

Remember, there are two recoils involved; actual, which is a math equation, and perceived (aka "kick"), which is all about gun fit, gas action pulse elongation, etc.

The heaviest gun your boy can handle, coupled with the lightest loads to do the job, in a gas gun with other recoil attenuation devices, all rolled up in a gun that FITS him, will be the best combo for him.

Fishbed77 · September 19, 2016, 11:38 AM

Quote:

I am fairly recoil sensitive but it doesn't prevent me from shooting the 11-87 well. My son is terrified of recoil but also isn't strong enough to hold his 11-87 up very long. On paper, it looks like a pair of A400s would be ideal.

From personal experience, I can tell you the felt recoil of the A400 is more than that of an 11-87.

This is a result of both its gas system design, and the fact that it tends to be lighter than a similarly spec'ed 11-87 due to the aluminum receiver.

It's a fantastic shotgun (and better made than anything Remington/Cerberus/Freedom Group is churning out these days), but don't buy it thinking recoil will be less than a comparable 11-87.

FITASC · September 19, 2016, 04:34 PM

Quote:

From personal experience, I can tell you the felt recoil of the A400 is more than that of an 11-87.

And that is YOUR experience, as you stated, but felt recoil, (aka "kick") is a totally personal experience, and to say, based on your own experience, that the felt recoil is more for the other gun for everyone, is incorrect.

NoSecondBest · September 19, 2016, 06:50 PM

You can add weighted caps to any of the A400 series guns, and you can also add weight into the butt stock if you so desire by pouring in some lead shot. I've owned both the A400 and the 11-87 and I'm in the camp where the 11-87 has less felt recoil....forget the math, I just know how it feels. However, the A400 has several better features than the 11-87 such as a shim kit to change castoff/on and drop. You can make it fit reasonably close without having a stock fitter work on your gun. The down side to the A400 is the wood. Not only is the fake grain (dye is used for that effect) a bit gaudy, but if you run your palm down the stock you can feel the end of the grain and the finish is a bit porous. Beretta always had a pretty decent wood on their guns, but these new ones look like they were made out of balsa wood with a cheap stain. I have actually never seen any gun with as bad a finish on it as the A400 I got. I went back and looked at some more and they all appear to be deficient in that regard. Beretta charges a premium for these guns and really fails to deliver on the finish. Just my experience. Take a very good look before you fork over the bucks.

Fishbed77 · September 20, 2016, 03:41 PM

Quote:

And that is YOUR experience, as you stated, but felt recoil, (aka "kick") is a totally personal experience, and to say, based on your own experience, that the felt recoil is more for the other gun for everyone, is incorrect.

You are correct in that felt recoil is a personal experience, but I can confidently say that the felt recoil of the the A400 will likely be greater than that of a similarly-configured 11-87 for practically every shooter.

It's a matter of simple physics. An object at rest tends to stay at rest and F=MA. The greater mass of the heavier 11-87 with its steel receiver is going to resist inertia better than that of the lighter A400 with its aluminum receiver. Obviously, there are also many other factors at play (the gas systems and bolt/bolt carrier designs of the two models are very different and this has a factor on recoil as well).

Again - this is not a slam on the A400. IMHO it is a far better shotgun than anything made by Remington/Cerberus/Freedom Group today, but if softer felt recoil is the OP's sole reason for investing in an A400, he may just want to shoot one first to make sure it agrees with him.

.

TMD · September 20, 2016, 07:29 PM

A few years ago my wife who was at the time just a girlfriend wanted to learn how to shoot sporting clays. Went through a few different shotguns and to her all of them kicked too hard. I then stumbled on a heck of a deal for a A400 Xcel 12ga with the kickoff stock (friend won it in a shoot). Worst mistake ever. Now she outshoots me. I will add also to me it has to be the softest shooting 12ga semiauto I've ever handled.

lockedcj7 · September 20, 2016, 09:22 PM

I understand the physics so I get why the heavier gun should have less felt recoil.

My 11-87 does not have the KO system that the A400 has or a modern recoil pad.

Fish - did the Beretta you shot have that system? The Beretta website claims that the A400 was designed to recoil in line with the comb to alleviate cheek-slap but I'm wondering how the movement of the stock affects that perception.

TMD - that was the answer I was hoping for.

My son has decided that he wants to stick with his 11-87 so it's just me who's looking. Recoil isn't my primary concern so I'll probably try my luck with the A400. They hold their value well so I can always sell it if I don't like it. I'm taking for granted that it's vastly higher quality, reliable and all that.

FITASC · September 21, 2016, 07:30 AM

Quote:

I understand the physics so I get why the heavier gun should have less felt recoil.

Incorrect. The heavier gun will have far less ACTUAL recoil. FELT recoil, aka "kick", aka "perceived" is all about stock dimensions and overall fit. One is a simple math equation; the other is a complex personal "feeling". Stock dimensions are a lot more than just how long the stock is.

September 18, 2016, 08:18 PM	#1
lockedcj7 Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2007 Posts: 1,215	Lusting after an A400, or two... I've been on a buying spree lately but I'm also suffering from a bit of gun lust. I've decided that I have to have a Beretta A400 and possibly one for my son. We both have 11-87s that work perfectly well with no reliability issues. His is a 20 ga. youth synthetic. Mine is a 12 ga. special purpose synthetic. I am fairly recoil sensitive but it doesn't prevent me from shooting the 11-87 well. My son is terrified of recoil but also isn't strong enough to hold his 11-87 up very long. On paper, it looks like a pair of A400s would be ideal. Are they really that much better? Would an A400 in 20 ga. with the KO system recoil less than his 11-87? Would it be enough to matter? __________________ To a much greater extent than most mechanical devices, firearms are terribly unforgiving of any overconfidence, complacency or negligence.

September 19, 2016, 03:21 AM	#2
mete Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2004 Location: NY State Posts: 6,575	That gun is one of the most reliable and durable shotguns on the market.Go for it ! __________________ And Watson , bring your revolver !

September 19, 2016, 05:07 AM	#3
darkgael Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2006 Location: Homes in Brooklyn, NY and in Pennsylvania. Posts: 5,473	A400 You will save yourself about a half pound with the A400 (7.7lbs) vs. the 11-87 (8.25lbs). That is the 12 gauge. Pete __________________ “Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games.” Ernest Hemingway ... NRA Life Member

September 19, 2016, 08:08 AM	#4
FITASC Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2014 Posts: 6,441	I own two - the blue smurf gun (Xcel) to which I added some foreend weight for balance and now weighs 8# and the 3.5" green Xplor Unico which weighs right at 7#. Both of these handle my 3/4oz reloads with zero malfunctions or issues. The Xplor has the Kick-Off, the Xcel does not. While still comfortable to shoot, the lighter gun does impart more recoil due to the weight difference. Remember, there are two recoils involved; actual, which is a math equation, and perceived (aka "kick"), which is all about gun fit, gas action pulse elongation, etc. The heaviest gun your boy can handle, coupled with the lightest loads to do the job, in a gas gun with other recoil attenuation devices, all rolled up in a gun that FITS him, will be the best combo for him. __________________ "I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa

September 20, 2016, 09:22 PM	#10
lockedcj7 Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2007 Posts: 1,215	I understand the physics so I get why the heavier gun should have less felt recoil. My 11-87 does not have the KO system that the A400 has or a modern recoil pad. Fish - did the Beretta you shot have that system? The Beretta website claims that the A400 was designed to recoil in line with the comb to alleviate cheek-slap but I'm wondering how the movement of the stock affects that perception. TMD - that was the answer I was hoping for. My son has decided that he wants to stick with his 11-87 so it's just me who's looking. Recoil isn't my primary concern so I'll probably try my luck with the A400. They hold their value well so I can always sell it if I don't like it. I'm taking for granted that it's vastly higher quality, reliable and all that. __________________ To a much greater extent than most mechanical devices, firearms are terribly unforgiving of any overconfidence, complacency or negligence. Last edited by lockedcj7; September 20, 2016 at 09:28 PM.

September 19, 2016, 06:50 PM	#7
NoSecondBest Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2009 Location: Western New York Posts: 2,736	You can add weighted caps to any of the A400 series guns, and you can also add weight into the butt stock if you so desire by pouring in some lead shot. I've owned both the A400 and the 11-87 and I'm in the camp where the 11-87 has less felt recoil....forget the math, I just know how it feels. However, the A400 has several better features than the 11-87 such as a shim kit to change castoff/on and drop. You can make it fit reasonably close without having a stock fitter work on your gun. The down side to the A400 is the wood. Not only is the fake grain (dye is used for that effect) a bit gaudy, but if you run your palm down the stock you can feel the end of the grain and the finish is a bit porous. Beretta always had a pretty decent wood on their guns, but these new ones look like they were made out of balsa wood with a cheap stain. I have actually never seen any gun with as bad a finish on it as the A400 I got. I went back and looked at some more and they all appear to be deficient in that regard. Beretta charges a premium for these guns and really fails to deliver on the finish. Just my experience. Take a very good look before you fork over the bucks.

September 20, 2016, 07:29 PM	#9
TMD Senior Member Join Date: August 9, 2011 Posts: 1,293	A few years ago my wife who was at the time just a girlfriend wanted to learn how to shoot sporting clays. Went through a few different shotguns and to her all of them kicked too hard. I then stumbled on a heck of a deal for a A400 Xcel 12ga with the kickoff stock (friend won it in a shoot). Worst mistake ever. Now she outshoots me. I will add also to me it has to be the softest shooting 12ga semiauto I've ever handled.