First post in this Forum - Page 3

Jim Watson · August 17, 2008, 07:48 AM

No 58 is a FN (Fabrique Nationale of Belgium) model 1900. It was designed for them by renowned US gun inventor John M. Browning. It was very popular in its day, with over 700,000 made from 1900 until 1911. There were numerous Chinese copies, it was well known in the Orient. Caliber is 7.65mm Browning (.32 ACP). This example is very worn.

No 59 is a Rossi "Princess" revolver made by Amadeo Rossi S.A. in S. Leopoldo, Brazil. Caliber is .22 long rifle. It was sold in the USA as the "Ladysmith" because it resembles the old small Smith & Wesson revolver of that (informal) model designation.

No 60 is a copy of a British Webley Mk II (or III, IV, or V). It is most likely of Spanish or Belgian origin, and is a more faithful copy than most such guns. Caliber in the original was .455 Webley but a copy might be in some other caliber suited to the market. The trigger guard is a replacement bent out of strap iron. Several other guns in this series have missing or damaged trigger guards, I don't know what it is about service in Brazil that is hard on that area.

I see that SDC has beaten me to the punch this Sunday morning. But we do agree, which has to be worth something.

jurupari · September 12, 2008, 11:29 AM

... but I'll be able to post during the week end, hoping there's still someone out there...

Cheers everybody!

Jim Watson · September 12, 2008, 11:45 AM

I subscribed to this thread to watch for posts and am still here for whatever help I can provide. I will be absent until Sunday afternoon. SDC will probably provide identification in the meanwhile.

SDC · September 12, 2008, 12:10 PM

Always free to help, and I THINK I've identified one of those oddball submachine guns as well; from Nelson's "Submachine Guns of the World", it appears to be a Spanish-made MX 1935 (sometimes called a "Gollat MX 1935", from the designer), in 9mm Bergmann-Bayard. This is apparently a fairly rare model, as not many were made, and should be marked "Eibar" and "Gollat" on the right side of the receiver.

jurupari · September 14, 2008, 07:24 AM

Back again, and finding good news! Thank you, SDC! Can you please specify the picture in my posts that corresponds to the Spanish-made MX 1935? There is one sporting a barrel jacket with round holes, but the barrel looks way shorter than the one in your picture.

Let's get to today pistols (only five posts remaining, this included!), all revolvers. As for the museum, there isn't yet a date for the opening, it should be some time between the end of this year and the beginning of next one... let's hope for the best.

SDC · September 14, 2008, 09:32 AM

Glad to help :-) I believe your picture 16 is the MX 1935, as it shares the ventilated barrel shroud, the magazine well at 90 degrees, the deep pistol-grip, and the rear receiver cap that slopes down slightly. Your picture 65 appears to be an Italian Bodeo M1889 folding-trigger revolver; these were chambered for the 10.4mm Revolver cartridge, and used through the First and Second World Wars, but were made by five or six different manufacturers in Italy; the manufacturer of that specific revolver should be marked on the frame, ahead of the cylinder. Picture 66 appears to be a Smith & Wesson Hand Ejector of one type or another (if you can get the serial number, it will narrow down the possibilities), but it's in pretty rough shape; the finish is mainly gone, the cylinder latch has been replaced with another home-made piece, and the grips have been replaced with a pair from a Harrington & Richardson revolver that just happened to fit. Picture 67 APPEARS to be an early (1870s or so) Nagant-style revolver, built in either France or Belgium for military use, but I think we'd need some more information on any markings to be able to nail it down past that. Sorry I couldn't be more help on these, but revolvers tend to be a little out of my area of specialty.

Jim Watson · September 14, 2008, 11:27 AM

I have nothing to add on No 65, the Italian Bodeo revolver.

Just from the proportions of the gun, I think No 66 is a Smith and Wesson .32 Hand Ejector, caliber .32 S&W Long. These were made in large quantities from 1903 til 1942 in several "changes" identifiable only by serial number and other markings. The model resumed production after WW II, but with visible differences. I think this a pre-war revolver or possibly a very early post WW II example.

No 67 looks very like the Belgian Model 1883 Nagant noncommissioned officer's revolver, caliber 9x22R mm. (9mm bullet, 22mm cartridge case length, rimmed case for revolver use.) E.C. Ezell's book 'Handguns of the World' states "Revolvers similar to the Nagant were adopted by the Brazilian and Argentine armies..." The extractor rod under the barrel is a replacement of different shape than the factory part.

jurupari · October 25, 2008, 04:10 AM

... Back after so long time, just to thank everybody for your help and patience.

Dr De Souza, my Brazilian friend, told me that, due to fund cuts and related cuts to the museum's dimensions, she has already gathered enough information to fill up the museum space she reserved for weapons, and - for now at least - needs not go further.

So, again, thank you Jim, SDC and all others that helped us in this project: the information you provided was precious, and those labels will be a permanent acknowledgment to your kindness. I must add that, personally, it was an experience from which I learned a lot, an enriching one.

As I promised, I'all post a last image, no need to identify it... it's a odd custom made (or Bubba made) pistol, I can't even how (and if) it could fire...

Good bye everybody!

Jim Watson · October 25, 2008, 05:22 AM

That is really a finale. I have never seen the like. I think it is incomplete and incapable of being fired as is.

September 12, 2008, 11:29 AM	#52
jurupari Member Join Date: June 21, 2008 Posts: 19	A long time away... ... but I'll be able to post during the week end, hoping there's still someone out there... Cheers everybody!

September 12, 2008, 12:10 PM	#54
SDC Senior Member Join Date: January 23, 2001 Location: People's Republic of Kanada Posts: 1,652	Always free to help, and I THINK I've identified one of those oddball submachine guns as well; from Nelson's "Submachine Guns of the World", it appears to be a Spanish-made MX 1935 (sometimes called a "Gollat MX 1935", from the designer), in 9mm Bergmann-Bayard. This is apparently a fairly rare model, as not many were made, and should be marked "Eibar" and "Gollat" on the right side of the receiver. __________________ Gun control in Canada: making the streets safer for rapists, muggers, and other violent criminals since 1936.

September 14, 2008, 09:32 AM	#56
SDC Senior Member Join Date: January 23, 2001 Location: People's Republic of Kanada Posts: 1,652	Glad to help :-) I believe your picture 16 is the MX 1935, as it shares the ventilated barrel shroud, the magazine well at 90 degrees, the deep pistol-grip, and the rear receiver cap that slopes down slightly. Your picture 65 appears to be an Italian Bodeo M1889 folding-trigger revolver; these were chambered for the 10.4mm Revolver cartridge, and used through the First and Second World Wars, but were made by five or six different manufacturers in Italy; the manufacturer of that specific revolver should be marked on the frame, ahead of the cylinder. Picture 66 appears to be a Smith & Wesson Hand Ejector of one type or another (if you can get the serial number, it will narrow down the possibilities), but it's in pretty rough shape; the finish is mainly gone, the cylinder latch has been replaced with another home-made piece, and the grips have been replaced with a pair from a Harrington & Richardson revolver that just happened to fit. Picture 67 APPEARS to be an early (1870s or so) Nagant-style revolver, built in either France or Belgium for military use, but I think we'd need some more information on any markings to be able to nail it down past that. Sorry I couldn't be more help on these, but revolvers tend to be a little out of my area of specialty. __________________ Gun control in Canada: making the streets safer for rapists, muggers, and other violent criminals since 1936.

August 17, 2008, 07:48 AM	#51
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	No 58 is a FN (Fabrique Nationale of Belgium) model 1900. It was designed for them by renowned US gun inventor John M. Browning. It was very popular in its day, with over 700,000 made from 1900 until 1911. There were numerous Chinese copies, it was well known in the Orient. Caliber is 7.65mm Browning (.32 ACP). This example is very worn. No 59 is a Rossi "Princess" revolver made by Amadeo Rossi S.A. in S. Leopoldo, Brazil. Caliber is .22 long rifle. It was sold in the USA as the "Ladysmith" because it resembles the old small Smith & Wesson revolver of that (informal) model designation. No 60 is a copy of a British Webley Mk II (or III, IV, or V). It is most likely of Spanish or Belgian origin, and is a more faithful copy than most such guns. Caliber in the original was .455 Webley but a copy might be in some other caliber suited to the market. The trigger guard is a replacement bent out of strap iron. Several other guns in this series have missing or damaged trigger guards, I don't know what it is about service in Brazil that is hard on that area. I see that SDC has beaten me to the punch this Sunday morning. But we do agree, which has to be worth something.

September 12, 2008, 11:45 AM	#53
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	I subscribed to this thread to watch for posts and am still here for whatever help I can provide. I will be absent until Sunday afternoon. SDC will probably provide identification in the meanwhile.

September 14, 2008, 11:27 AM	#57
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	I have nothing to add on No 65, the Italian Bodeo revolver. Just from the proportions of the gun, I think No 66 is a Smith and Wesson .32 Hand Ejector, caliber .32 S&W Long. These were made in large quantities from 1903 til 1942 in several "changes" identifiable only by serial number and other markings. The model resumed production after WW II, but with visible differences. I think this a pre-war revolver or possibly a very early post WW II example. No 67 looks very like the Belgian Model 1883 Nagant noncommissioned officer's revolver, caliber 9x22R mm. (9mm bullet, 22mm cartridge case length, rimmed case for revolver use.) E.C. Ezell's book 'Handguns of the World' states "Revolvers similar to the Nagant were adopted by the Brazilian and Argentine armies..." The extractor rod under the barrel is a replacement of different shape than the factory part.

October 25, 2008, 05:22 AM	#59
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	That is really a finale. I have never seen the like. I think it is incomplete and incapable of being fired as is.