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Old July 5, 2021, 04:59 PM   #51
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"Assault weapon" is a phony term that was invented for the express purpose of confusing the American public into thinking that a semi-automatic AR-15 is exactly the same as a full-auto M16 military issue rifle.
It was a phony made up term, for the reason you state, UNTIL they wrote it into law. Then it became a legal definition.

And, while the 1994 AWB Federal law sunset in 2004 and was not renewed, several states passed their own laws, most were virtual copies of the Fed law without the sunset clause, and those laws are still in effect and have been expanded in the years since the Fed law went away.
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Old July 5, 2021, 08:07 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by 44 AMP
It was a phony made up term, for the reason you state, UNTIL they wrote it into law. Then it became a legal definition.
Correct ... and not correct.

In 1994, when the feds and several states wrote it into law, it was "a" legal definition. Then the federal AWB expired, and over the intervening years several of the states that have their own AWBs revised the definitions. I don't know how many states currently have AWBs on the books but, of those that do, if more than two of them agree I will be very surprised.

So now it's a not "a legal definition," it's more like "a motley assortment of legal definitions." Which means it's not a definition (legal or otherwise) in any real world sense, it's just a phony concept that was invented for the express purpose of confusing the American public ...

But I repeat myself.
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Old July 6, 2021, 02:24 AM   #53
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Which means it's not a definition (legal or otherwise) in any real world sense, it's just a phony concept that was invented for the express purpose of confusing the American public ...
Correct ... and not correct.....

Correct in its origins and purpose, but not correct in that it still IS a legal definition in those states that have laws defining it.

The national scene is a mishmash right now, with some states having assault weapon laws, defining them one way, and other states with laws with differing definitions, and some states retaining the sanity to remember that they are just semi auto rifles.

However, there is a risk to that, as well. We, quite possibly took the wrong tack early on, trying to be precise, logical and reasonable. We spent a lot of effort explaining how these guns were really the same as guns they considered "ok" reasoning that the other side would see, and accept the wisdom of our argument and stop trying to ban them.

The other side, of course, heard only what they wanted to hear, and decided that if the semi autos that were "assault weapons" were mechanically the same as the semi auto sporting arms then they must ALL be bad, and heavily regulated if not outright banned.

In Washington state, as of the summer of 2019. ALL SEMIAUTOMATIC RIFLES became legally designated as "Semiautomatic Assault Rifles".

EVERY

SINGLE

ONE

And this happened because of the definition in the law of what a Semi Automatic Assault Rifle was. For once (and to our detriment) they didn't bother with using magazine size or type, or any cosmetic features in the definition. There is no language about pistol grips, heat shields, flash suppressors, or bayonet lugs. There's nothing about "accepting a detachable magazine" or any of the other "assault rifle features" used in other laws.

They went straight to the heart of the action, and used that, stating flatly that if the rifle used any part of the energy from a fired cartridge to eject the empty and load another round then it was a "Semiautomatic Assault Rifle".

No attempt at explanation, or justification, just the flat fiat of law stating if it does "this", then it is called "that". And they used the definition that covers every single semi auto ever made. Doesn't matter if its an AR/AK or a 100yr old gallery gun shooting .22 shorts. ALL of them are semiautomatic assault rifles under state law, and therefore have extra fees, waiting periods, and other requirements in order to purchase or even possess.

This piece of garbage is of course being challenged in court, but there are a few small problems with getting a decision, one being that our state govt has been in "covid panicdemic" mode for a while so "lesser" issues like gun rights are not on the front burner.

The other problem is that due to the massive regulations imposed by the law, the state has not been enforcing or even applying much of it so far. And with out enforcement, no one is "harmed" and without someone suffering harm from the law it can only be challenged in certain specific ways. Or so I understand it.

Anyway, point is that if the state has a law that says a certain gun is an "assault weapon" then in that state with that law being valid, legally that gun is an "assault weapon".

Reality doesn't matter much when you can define what words mean.
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Old July 6, 2021, 05:41 AM   #54
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Why do people call it a "buggy" when it is clearly a shopping cart?
One that fell out of favor, thankfully, was calling a 9mm pistol a "neener". Usually it was the very low information crowd being guilty of that, of course.
Two I do get a kick out of are referring to snakes as "nope ropes" and "danger noodles".
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Old July 6, 2021, 07:38 PM   #55
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I was looking for ballistics stuff when I found a site where the author kept talking about "come-ups." By which he meant "holdover" or "bullet drop"; it was hard to tell. Then I found a bunch more references to "come-ups" on other sites.

Best as I can tell, it came from the airsofters, and now it has infected real guns.

Oh, and as for "engine" vs. "motor" upthread: you have New York dictionary compilers on one side, and Ford MOTOR Company, General MOTORS, and many others, who have made tens of millions of them for more than a century, who say otherwise.

Sort of like the "gun experts" who insist that "pistol" only applies to autoloaders. I guess there weren't any "pistols" before 1893...
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Old July 6, 2021, 09:14 PM   #56
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I was looking for ballistics stuff when I found a site where the author kept talking about "come-ups." By which he meant "holdover" or "bullet drop"; it was hard to tell. Then I found a bunch more references to "come-ups" on other sites.

Best as I can tell, it came from the airsofters, and now it has infected real guns.
I learned about "come-ups" in mid and long range shooting; BPCR and F Class.
It means how much elevation to you add to your sight setting to go from one range to a longer range.
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Old July 7, 2021, 04:24 PM   #57
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I can see adjusting your sight so the bullet strike "comes up".

I can also see raising your point of aim (holdover) so the bullet hits higher.

I think regional dialect and the individual teacher's choice of jargon creates differences in terms that have the same end result meaning.

When I shoot long range with a pistol I don't hold over the target, I raise the front sight in the rear notch, with my target on top of it, so, I am holding the front sight "over" its regular position. I call that holdover, I suppose someone else could say I "come up" on the front sight. Either way, the result is the same, my sight picture allows me to still see my target, and the alignment of the sights allows for the longer range trajectory.
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Old July 7, 2021, 04:43 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by 44 AMP
Anyway, point is that if the state has a law that says a certain gun is an "assault weapon" then in that state with that law being valid, legally that gun is an "assault weapon".

Reality doesn't matter much when you can define what words mean.
Language ordinarily works by trust and consent. You and I and every other speaker are part of a process in which all agree on what a word means. Whenever someone tells you that the a word's meaning is the going to be the product of his fiat, you've departed from living language and entered the world of argot. It has all the same problems of fiat currencies.

To paraphrase Dickens, if the legislature supposes a gallery rifle is an assault weapon, then the legislature is an ass.
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Old July 8, 2021, 02:27 AM   #59
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When I shoot long range with a pistol I don't hold over the target, I raise the front sight in the rear notch, with my target on top of it, so, I am holding the front sight "over" its regular position. I call that holdover, I suppose someone else could say I "come up" on the front sight. Either way, the result is the same, my sight picture allows me to still see my target, and the alignment of the sights allows for the longer range trajectory.
This may sound argumentative, I do not mean for it to be, but since the general subject here is communication, I’ll submit that you’ve described this process poorly.

What you are doing (I do it also) would be better described not by saying that you raised your front sight (afterall, you still hold that front sight under your target same as always), but that you very much lowered your rear sight… to the place where the front sight nestles in.
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Old July 8, 2021, 05:52 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Sevens
What you are doing (I do it also) would be better described not by saying that you raised your front sight (afterall, you still hold that front sight under your target same as always), but that you very much lowered your rear sight… to the place where the front sight nestles in.
And, since the sights are designed to have the tops of the front and rear sights aligned horizontally, by lowering the rear sight all you are doing is aiming higher.
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Old July 8, 2021, 10:26 AM   #61
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What you are doing (I do it also) would be better described not by saying that you raised your front sight (afterall, you still hold that front sight under your target same as always), but that you very much lowered your rear sight…
I don't think lowering the rear sight (relative to the front sight) is a "better" description. Its accurate, describing the relationship of the sights, relative to each other when I take the shot, but is not descriptive of what I do, to get there.

I physically raise the muzzle of the pistol, I don't lower the rear sight. And while raising the muzzle has the effect of lowering the rear sight, that is the effect of the action I am performing (raising the front sight), not me lowering the rear one. Perhaps this is an optical delusion, because I don't see me lowering the rear sight, it stays in place, relative to my eye. What I see is me raising the front sight (by raising the muzzle) so that it stands up above the top of the rear sight blade.

this is also called "standing proud in the notch", meaning it sticks up /stands out.

Some folks call it "Kentucky windage". I don't know what they call it in Kentucky (maybe just "windage" ) but in my part of the country where I grew up, the old timers called ALL aim corrections, up, down, left, right, were "Kentucky windage".

Physically moving the sight (via an adjustment screw or by drift) was NOT "Kentucky windage" it was a sight adjustment.
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Old July 8, 2021, 01:11 PM   #62
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You haven’t convinced me yet!

Let us describe this scenario captured by video drone, we have a bird’s eye view of 44 AMP and he is standing at the firing line and holding his trusty Model 27-2, aiming at a 25 yard steel plate. With great care and aim he touches off a shot and rings that 25 yard plate. Quickly back on target, he considers another shot at the 25 yard plate. However, on a whim he chooses to stretch the legs a bit. With the revolver still leveled, he spies the 250 yard plate and moves over to take aim at it.

He certainly does not raise that front sight. For if he did raise that front sight, that front sight would obscure the 250 yard plate, which he assured us he does not do. As he explained earlier, he lowers the rear of his 27-2 all the while sure NOT to obscure that 250 yard target with his front sight.
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Old July 8, 2021, 03:01 PM   #63
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Close, but I have a 28-2.
And I usually ring the 200yd gong with my Ruger Blackhawk .45 Colt.

having over 3 decades of practice with that gun and the load I shoot, I know just how to aim it.

You can describe it any way you want, but here's what I do, as I see it.

I raise the the front sight up in the rear notch, until the point where the sight slope "breaks" (which is the right amount for the load I use and that distance) is level with the top of the rear sight, and THEN put the gong on top of the front sight blade.

and, I like doing it offhand, one handed, with my left hand in my hip pocket and a lit Marlboro in the corner of my mouth.
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Old July 8, 2021, 03:17 PM   #64
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I haven't heard it in a long time, but many years ago when I was competing just about every weekend at some local muzzle loading rifle match, I'd come to work on Monday, and someone would always ask me if I shot my "musket loader" that past weekend. I'd always have to slap my forehead, look up with a squint in my eyes, and give a big sigh...

Always liked the term, "Kentucky windage." It just goes well, as it should, with an open sighted, patched round ball shooting rifle.
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Old July 8, 2021, 05:02 PM   #65
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State named aiming adjustments.....

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Kentucky_windage
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Old July 8, 2021, 05:26 PM   #66
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Where I live, it’s “Wyoming windage,” and it’s needed more times than not.
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Old July 8, 2021, 07:29 PM   #67
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One of my rifles is "Killdeer" and a friend calls one of my pistols "Alice". But their calibers are .308Win and .45ACP..
If the details matter, as you say they do to you, then you would know that .308 Win and .45 ACP are CARTRIDGES, not CALIBERS..........................
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Old July 8, 2021, 07:59 PM   #68
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then you would know that .308 Win and .45 ACP are CARTRIDGES, not CALIBERS............
US gunmakers and the government have been using cartridge names as caliber designations for a long, long time. Possibly as long as we've had metallic cartridges.

Caliber is a multi definition word, dependent on context. It is used to describe the bore size (diameter), and the barrel length (in artillery), and the cartridge which the gun is chambered for (in registration forms and in the maker's catalogues, etc).
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Old July 11, 2021, 10:43 AM   #69
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Was going through customs into Canada to go fishing once. Pickup,camper shell,boat.
The Agent asked me several times if I had ANY weapons. I did not bring any guns. Eventually I figured out that "No Sir,I did not bring any weapons" was not the answer he was looking for.
I tried "Wait,I DO have a machete in the back of the truck,but I consider it a tool,not a weapon."

With that,the agent sent me on my way.

I sincerely hope any Law Enforcement I have a conversation with can recognise and understand the difference between an Assault Weapon and my Counter Assault Weapon.

And surely y'all know the terms Gulley Whomper, Toad Strangler, Tow Sack,and Turtle Hull
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Old July 11, 2021, 12:51 PM   #70
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https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/caliber
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Old July 11, 2021, 08:04 PM   #71
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One of the "great lies" of the modern era, and almost universally accepted without question is that dictionaries are the ultimate arbiter of what is, and is not a word, and the proper spelling and definition of them.

Countless teachers and others over the last few hundred years have used this as their final and ultimate argument when correcting a student. "It isn't in the dictionary, so you're wrong" is quite common, still, today.

But the fact is, that dictionaries are not, and never were the be all, end all source of words and their uses. In fact, if you read the fine print found at the beginning of dictionaries (at least the real book ones, I don't know about the online ones) they will all TELL you that the dictionary contains words and definitions as found in common popular use, and some historical usages as well. They do not claim to be all inclusive, or the only source of accurate information.

there are a LOT of terms used in various technical fields that have definitions not found in general dictionaries. "Caliber" is just one among many such terms.
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Old July 12, 2021, 02:46 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post
and, I like doing it offhand, one handed, with my left hand in my hip pocket and a lit Marlboro in the corner of my mouth.
Then you're shooting a gun while using drugs.
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Old July 12, 2021, 06:52 PM   #73
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If you call a cartridge a "bullet", then what do you call a bullet? I heard a guy call it a "bullet head"!?!?

Another guy, unfamiliar with 1911 parts nomenclature, inquired about the "lower barrel lug swivel pin plate" . . . aka, the link.
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Old July 12, 2021, 07:56 PM   #74
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I've heard people say "bullet heads", "bullet tips" and "bullet points".

If you correct them, once in a while you get a thank you, but most of the time you get an irritated "you know what I mean!" and a glare...

Can't begin to tell you the number of people over the years who've told me that to get a semi to fire full auto, all you have to do is file the sear pin..(or sometimes, they call it the shear pin...)

And, they honestly think they're right.....

Ever work with one of those folks, who, if they don't know the correct name for something, make up their own name for it?? I have. One of them was an industrial maint electrician. He was a good guy, knew his electrical stuff, but otherwise was a "poor fit" for the industrial situation he worked in, because he would make up his own names for the equipment, and if you didn't know him, and know that he did that, you had no idea what he was talking about, or if he was right or not...

I worked for many years in a nuclear chemical plant. One of the tanks in one of the processes had an unusual agitator. Unlike the spinning blades used in all the other tanks, this one had a large slow moving paddle that "wagged" back and forth to stir the solution. It had an odd name, it was actually named the "Wig-Wag agitator" by the people who made it.

So, it breaks down. Maint gets called, our guy checks it out, and because he can't remember (or never knew) the correct name, he makes up his own. He tells management that they need parts for the "Weedle Beetle" .

The group manager, who most of us thought was in that position due to EEOC concerns and not her process knowledge doesn't know its NOT a "weedle beetle" and orders parts for the "weedle beetle.

Weeks pass, no parts, process is down....Upper Management want's to know why its not fixed yet... SOMEONE.... suggests to them they look into what parts got ordered.... they do, and find out NO parts got ordered because there's no such thing as a "weedle beetle".....
Bosses not happy. Group Mgr gets reassigned. Workers in the trenches,..chortle and giggle...(because we TOLD them what was wrong and were ignored)

The point here is, that if you need parts, and you don't use the RIGHT names you won't get the right parts, if you get any parts at all....

Works that way with guns, too...
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Old July 13, 2021, 11:19 AM   #75
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A friend has gotten a lot of bargains off Gunbroker because items were listed wrong and drew few bids. He said he had six different spellings of Anschutz that would all turn up a rifle every now and then.
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