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Old June 13, 2021, 10:37 PM   #76
JC57
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I have a Glock 22 chambered in .40 S&W. At the time I bought it, .40 was plentiful and cheap and 9mm was not. That is my only .40 S&W firearm.

I also have a drop-in 9mm conversion barrel for it and some 9mm Glock magazines. It has proven to be completely reliable in both configurations.

I could not really tell any significant difference in recoil, accuracy, or anything else on the range using practice ammo, and the .40 did not feel any different from 9mm +P.

Seems like a decent enough firearm and I expect that ammo for it will be produced for as long as I will live. I have no complaints with the .40 S&W caliber.
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Old June 13, 2021, 11:30 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JC57 View Post
I have a Glock 22 chambered in .40 S&W. At the time I bought it, .40 was plentiful and cheap and 9mm was not. That is my only .40 S&W firearm.

I also have a drop-in 9mm conversion barrel for it and some 9mm Glock magazines. It has proven to be completely reliable in both configurations.

I could not really tell any significant difference in recoil, accuracy, or anything else on the range using practice ammo, and the .40 did not feel any different from 9mm +P.

Seems like a decent enough firearm and I expect that ammo for it will be produced for as long as I will live. I have no complaints with the .40 S&W caliber.
Always wondered about the reliability of the 9mm conversion barrels. good to know.

I have considered getting a G23 (as I love the size of my G19) and getting 9mm and 357 sig conversion barrels just so I could shoot 3 different cartridges out of the same gun.
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Old June 14, 2021, 05:24 AM   #78
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In my totally irrational mind, I carry a P365 in 'safe' areas (around the neighborhood, local shops...), when Im heading to the 'big city' I carry the P229 40SW. Why? I have no reasonable explanation - other than in my muddled mind, I think the 40SW is going to stop any issue better. No realistic support behind it - just my mind saying its a bigger bullet, it has to be better (no real support). And its not as if the issues at a local shop would be any different than in the 'big city'. Train with both, comfortable with both. Maybe I need help.
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Old June 14, 2021, 10:59 AM   #79
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> 10mm - recoil is severe
> 40 s&w - just right

Over half of all "10mm Auto" is loaded identically to .40 S&W.

Looking at a number of reviews, the name of a cartridge would seem to be a more important factor for felt recoil than the actual ballistics.
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Old June 15, 2021, 03:43 AM   #80
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I was late to the party on .40 S&W. I made the mistake of trying it in polymer subcompacts and instantly wrote it off. Then I started using it in full-sized guns that properly mitigate recoil. Under those circumstances, I like it a lot and can appreciate the increased power versus 9mm.

In the right gun, I really do prefer .40 S&W to either 9mm or .45. It offers an excellent balance of power, recoil, and capacity. That goes for some of the steel guns mentioned, full-sized polymer guns like the USP and PX4, and also the PX4 Compact.

Of course, those guns aren't always the best choice for EDC. They might work in the winter but when I'm dressed for warm weather, the polymer subcompacts are hard to beat. That usually means dropping down to 9mm and unless I'm out in the woods, that's fine. If I'm really dressing light, I'll go with .327 Federal in the LCR.
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Old June 15, 2021, 11:00 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRX
Over half of all "10mm Auto" is loaded identically to .40 S&W.
Any time I see this statement, my OCD kicks in. I just looked up the specs for a bunch of the better-known brands of .40 S&W and 10mm ammunition. I'm just not seeing anything to support the above statement.

By caliber:


And sorted by muzzle energy:


If half or more of 10mm is loaded to .40 S&W levels, the sorted table should have a bunch of the 10mm loads interspersed with the .40 S&W loads. But that's not what the data show.
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Old June 15, 2021, 12:24 PM   #82
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To be fair, that chart is pretty slanted, and I would wager was made by a big fan of 10mm Auto for the specific purpose of downplaying just how common the FBI Loads really are.

Honestly, the .40 S&W table is missing several of the more powerful defensive loads like Federal HST, Winchester Ranger, Remington Ultimate Defense, Hornady Custom XTP, etc and is mostly Target Loads. (Seriously, who uses Winchester White Box or Federal American Eagle as an example of what any cartridge is capable of?)
Furthermore, Target Loads for the 10mm Auto are conveniently excluded, why ever could that be?

Last but not least, there's no mention of what pistols were used to get those numbers, but I have a hunch that it was also slanted in favor of 10mm Auto by doing something like shooting .40 S&W out of a Glock 23 while the 10mm was probably shot out of a gun with a longer barrel like a Glock 40.
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Old June 15, 2021, 04:36 PM   #83
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I made that chart. I went to The Sportsmans Guide web site, because I know their ammo listings include advertised muzzle velocity. (They also include muzzle energy, but their numbers -- while usually on the mark -- are occasionally way off base, so the ME column is calculated by Excel).

I just picked what they had listed, skipping over what I consider to be off-brand (stuff like TulAmmo). If it's slanted, it's slanted by what the market drives SGC to list, not by any bias in selection.

For the record, I am definitely not a big (or even small) fan of the 10mm. I'm a 1911 guy. If I'm a fan of anything, it's .45 ACP. I do own a CZ40, and I have a .40 slide and barrel for a Para-Ordnance 1911. That's about it. I really have no dog in this fight, but my experience has been that the actual numbers don't support the claim that nearly all commercial 10mm is nothing more than .40 S&W in a longer case.
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Old June 15, 2021, 04:48 PM   #84
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Ah, I see. In the future, you may want to use more of the same ammo for both cartridges for a more fair, apples to apples comparison, as it looks like cherry-picking when you mix and match random types of ammo.

Also, if 10mm Auto really is consistently loaded hotter than .40 S&W, then that's all the more reason to do direct comparisons between say Federal HST in both cartridges, rather than assorted FMJ Target Loads intermingled with JHP SD Loads.
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Old June 15, 2021, 05:57 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by JohnKSa View Post

For fun, I once did an analysis of the scores from several GSSF matches. GSSF match scores are posted online and GSSF has a category called Heavy Metal. Competitors in that category must shoot a pistol chambered in .45ACP, .45GAP or 10mm. There is also a category called Amateur Civilian and most shooters in that category compete with 9mm pistols although it’s legal to compete with any caliber in that category. Both categories use exactly the same course of fire.
Just for giggles in the analysis, was there any way to tell which of the two courses was shot first? Could there be improvement from having been through the course once?
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Old June 15, 2021, 06:41 PM   #86
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Well, I hope not. I have a .40 coming later this week, with a .357 Sig barrel too.

Good thing I reload. Speaking of, gotta dig the dies and brass out and start prepping, been a good few years since I've had a .40.
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Old June 15, 2021, 08:56 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Forte S+W
Ah, I see. In the future, you may want to use more of the same ammo for both cartridges for a more fair, apples to apples comparison, as it looks like cherry-picking when you mix and match random types of ammo.
How's this?

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Old June 15, 2021, 11:15 PM   #88
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To be fair, that chart is pretty slanted, and I would wager was made by a big fan of 10mm Auto for the specific purpose of downplaying just how common the FBI Loads really are.

Honestly, the .40 S&W table is missing several of the more powerful defensive loads like Federal HST, Winchester Ranger, Remington Ultimate Defense, Hornady Custom XTP, etc and is mostly Target Loads. (Seriously, who uses Winchester White Box or Federal American Eagle as an example of what any cartridge is capable of?)

Furthermore, Target Loads for the 10mm Auto are conveniently excluded, why ever could that be?

Last but not least, there's no mention of what pistols were used to get those numbers, but I have a hunch that it was also slanted in favor of 10mm Auto by doing something like shooting .40 S&W out of a Glock 23 while the 10mm was probably shot out of a gun with a longer barrel like a Glock 40.
As far as I can tell, that chart is based on manufacturer provided information which lays to rest some of the concerns about barrel length differences.

As far as the .40S&W chart missing several of the more powerful defensive loads—let’s accept that it is. By the same token, we must admit, if we want to be fair, that there are a lot of really hot 10mm loadings missing too.

As for the question about using WWB or American Eagle as an example of what a cartridge is capable of, it’s important to remember what the claim was. It wasn’t about what either cartridge was capable of, it was a blanket assertion that “Over half of all "10mm Auto" is loaded identically to .40 S&W.”.

In 2008, I did a survey of every single .40S&W and 10mm load I could find on the internet at the time. There was definitely overlap between the two cartridges, however it was absolutely clear that overall, the 10mm was pretty consistently loaded hotter than .40S&W. Here’s the data.

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=304838

I’m not really interested in doing the survey again, but the information is out there for anyone who wants to make it a project. Clearly from what I found back then, and also from what I see at this point, the claim that “over half” of all 10mm loadings out there are identical to .40S&W will be difficult to defend. Is there performance overlap between the two cartridges? Certainly! But in general, if you look at the overall picture, 10mm tends to be loaded hotter than .40S&W.
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Old June 15, 2021, 11:42 PM   #89
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Much better.

There are definitely some loads on there that are more in line with what I'd expect from proper 10mm Auto loads, mixed in with a lot of the typical examples of FBI Loads that are just barely hotter than .40 S&W, like those Federal American Eagle and Winchester Ranger Loads which are only a mere 30fps higher in velocity in 10mm Auto, compared to the Federal Syntech or SIG V-Crown which is actually full-power 10mm.

When folks say that a lot of 10mm Auto factory loads are basically just .40 S&W, they're talking about a lot of the sorts of loads seen there. 25-50fps higher velocity is so marginal that the difference could easily be the result of slightly longer test barrels rather than legitimately hotter loads, as you'd expect to see more from a load that's actually hotter. So it's not like folks are knocking 10mm Auto or trying to slander it as a cartridge, merely pointing out that a lot of ammo out there really isn't living up to the cartridge's full potential.
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Old June 15, 2021, 11:50 PM   #90
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Just for giggles in the analysis, was there any way to tell which of the two courses was shot first? Could there be improvement from having been through the course once?
There's no prescribed order in which to shoot the stages and nothing in the scores indicate which order the competitors chose.

However, the stages are the same from year to year, so it's not like there would be a significant benefit in the course of a single match in terms of which order one chooses to shoot the match or different categories.
Quote:
So it's not like folks are knocking 10mm Auto or trying to slander it as a cartridge, merely pointing out that a lot of ammo out there really isn't living up to the cartridge's full potential.
Well, I know for a fact that the 10mm's feelings won't be hurt, no matter what anyone says about it. Hopefully no one here is going to get hurt feelings on its behalf.

There are certainly a wide range of loadings for 10mm. If you look at the graphs in the thread I linked to, the same is true to an even much greater extent, for the .357Mag.

Any time that happens the only way it can be true is if there are mild loadings available since there are top limits that really can't be surpassed. I tend to think of it as versatility rather than as a shortcoming, but I guess some people really have problems with the idea that not every ammo selection on the market is loaded to absolute max.
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Old June 16, 2021, 12:22 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Forte S+W
When folks say that a lot of 10mm Auto factory loads are basically just .40 S&W, they're talking about a lot of the sorts of loads seen there. 25-50fps higher velocity is so marginal that the difference could easily be the result of slightly longer test barrels rather than legitimately hotter loads, as you'd expect to see more from a load that's actually hotter. So it's not like folks are knocking 10mm Auto or trying to slander it as a cartridge, merely pointing out that a lot of ammo out there really isn't living up to the cartridge's full potential.
But that's not the statement I was responding to when I created that chart.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TRX
Over half of all "10mm Auto" is loaded identically to .40 S&W.
Pick anything in that chart that's in the same brand and series, and the same bullet weight, and see if there's even one that's identical for both .40 and 10mm. The second iteration of the chart is sorted by brand to make the comparison easier.

I also don't think comparing velocity is the best criterion. In some cases, the 10mm is loaded with a heavier bullet. I think muzzle energy is the better comparator.
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Old June 16, 2021, 07:58 AM   #92
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To be fair, that chart is pretty slanted, and I would wager was made by a big fan of 10mm Auto for the specific purpose of downplaying just how common the FBI Loads really are.
If that were true, the chart would've included 10mm ammo produced by Underwood, Buffalo Bore, and Double Tap.

'Course, being so-called "fringe" and "boutique" ammo companies, they somehow don't really count when discussing the fps/fpe specs of "real" 10mm ammo.
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Old June 16, 2021, 08:57 AM   #93
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At the club where I'm an RSO the four semi-auto handgun cartridges that I see the least are .32, .40 SW, 357 Sig, and the 10mm.
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Old June 17, 2021, 02:39 AM   #94
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If somebody is trying hard to Sell you a gun which is Not in .40 S&W,

Then in That situation, they will likely suggest that the .40 S&W is, or will soon be dead. $$
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