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Old January 1, 2016, 05:57 PM   #26
JeepGunny
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Alrighty. I'm heading to the metcaf gun show tomorrow to try and score one. Do you have any advise on the grip? I feel like it is very bland if you will, and offers not very much grip aggressiveness. Like on a Glock 30s for example. I feel as if I were to get into a scuffle and drop my gun into a puddle or gasoline or what have you that I would not be able to hold onto it. Any advise or information there?
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Old January 2, 2016, 01:43 AM   #27
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Talon Grips:

http://talongungrips.com/grips/smith...full-size.html.

Your choice of rubberized or gritty texture, only $18.
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Old January 2, 2016, 01:51 AM   #28
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I have not had any problems with the grip texture on either the VP9 or the M&P.

That being said, if you do decide to get the talon grips, I suggest the rubber version. The gritty version can be uncomfortable to carry, and begins to be hard on the hands after you shoot a couple boxes of ammo at the range.
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Old January 2, 2016, 04:54 AM   #29
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I think a steel-framed 1911 would probably hold up better long term than a polymer-framed Glock 21 but I have no proof of this.
I don't think you need to prove it. You can break plastic but you can't break steel.
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Old January 2, 2016, 06:55 AM   #30
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...you can't break steel.
Of course you can. It's not difficult to find examples of steel-framed pistols that have frame cracks from use.

In general, the longevity of a pistol has more to do with how well it was designed and the manufacturer's attention to quality control than it does with what it's made of.

That said, even a good design implemented with good quality materials won't last forever. Virtually anything will eventually break after enough use.
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Old January 3, 2016, 03:57 PM   #31
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Quote:
Quote:
...you can't break steel.

Of course you can. It's not difficult to find examples of steel-framed pistols that have frame cracks from use.

In general, the longevity of a pistol has more to do with how well it was designed and the manufacturer's attention to quality control than it does with what it's made of.

That said, even a good design implemented with good quality materials won't last forever. Virtually anything will eventually break after enough use.
Truly spoken. A 1970's vintage car was built from real steel and iron, and you could almost count major engine work after about 75k miles, and suspension work as well. We now have cars built with lighter engine and suspension components (aluminum blocks, plastic intake manifolds, etc.) that are running 300k miles without major overhauls. The design is what allows these lighter weight materials to endure...........It's all about the combination of design AND materials, not just one or the other
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Old January 4, 2016, 12:37 PM   #32
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Well I have finally decided that I'm going to get an M&P 9 the most important reason behind this decision was the fact of the M&P has replaceable slide rails so in the event that SH TF I would be able to replace literally everything piece by piece aside from the slide and the frame this is why I chose the M&P nine over the VP nine and the Glock 19

Let the argument begin
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Old January 4, 2016, 12:48 PM   #33
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Well I have finally decided that I'm going to get an M&P 9 the most important reason behind this decision was the fact of the M&P has replaceable slide rails so in the event that SH TF I would be able to replace literally everything piece by piece aside from the slide and the frame this is why I chose the M&P nine over the VP nine and the Glock 19

Let the argument begin
If it floats your bought rock on, though you're worried about replacing a part that hasn't broken on Glocks with over 100,000 rds through them. There was a recall in the early 2000s, but I have never actually met a person that had this problem https://books.google.com/books?id=UM...0break&f=false. With the money you'll have spent on ammo or reloading components to get to a high enough round count to break the slide rails you could have bought a number of spare pistols.

I find it sort of funny how worried people get over SHTF in terms of firearms and small parts. Unless you have a sustainable food source, a water collection and filtration system, and a steady supply of medical equipment and treatment from someone other than yourself there are many, many ways you can die long before the slide rails on your pistol break. In fact it probably won't break in your lifetime even if the SHTF never happens. And at that point by all accounts the manufacturer should take care of it for you since the S hasn't hit the F. To me multiple pistols is more important than multiple parts.
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Last edited by TunnelRat; January 4, 2016 at 01:08 PM.
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Old January 4, 2016, 03:55 PM   #34
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The best spare parts to have for a gun... is another gun.

It's a common mentally.


One that has merit.

For me, I have a few common parts on hand, and a spare gun or two.

The parts allow me to fix the most common problems without having to wait for parts to be delivered or in stock somewhere. If a part is on backorder, I can still use the gun in the mean time.

Last edited by marine6680; January 4, 2016 at 04:01 PM.
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Old January 4, 2016, 08:30 PM   #35
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For me, I have a few common parts on hand, and a spare gun or two.
Common parts is one thing. Springs, extractors, and other small parts I get. Slide rails or in the case of M&Ps locking blocks and sear housings are less common and, imo, a lot less prone to breakage unless we're talking extreme round counts.

With Glocks and M&Ps so many people are selling parts that it's pretty uncommon for them to be out of stock everywhere, including S&W. That said when I do order a part I always order a spare just in case. There's no harm in being prepared, I'm just saying understand the chances associated with each concern and whether other higher probability risks are being ignored.
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Keep your muzzle oriented so that no one will be hurt if the firearm discharges
Keep your finger off the trigger until you have an adequate sight picture
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Old January 5, 2016, 12:14 AM   #36
JeepGunny
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You do make some very good points Tunnel. I guess it's something I may have to consider. Since I think about it there are more cases of slides blowing up than there are slide rails breaking so a backup gun would serve a better purpose. Maybe my mind can change tonight.
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Old January 5, 2016, 12:28 AM   #37
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I think a backup gun is a good idea regardless of the manufacturer. I have two Glock 19s. One I shoot once every two months, about a box to ensure function. That one I use for nightstand duty. The other gets shot about every weekend and is what I use for various courses. I probably put about 600 rds a month through that pistol. Both have the same sights, same Talon Grips, same setup so that using one produces the same muscle memory and feel as the other. The point is to try to keep one in some form of preserved state. I still put 500 rds through the Glock 19 on the nightsand to make sure it functioned fine from the factory, but I try to keep parts wear to a minimum while checking function periodically. There's also nothing wrong with having extra parts. But the old "two is one, one is none" expression helps too in the off chance something major happens (case rupture, squib that you don't notice, theft, etc.).

I wanted to state I don't have any problem with someone using an M&P and I want to make sure that wasn't the takeaway from my comments above. M&Ps have dropped to prices online that make them an extremely good value. If you have the money at a later date, consider a spare.
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Keep your muzzle oriented so that no one will be hurt if the firearm discharges
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Old January 5, 2016, 01:25 AM   #38
JeepGunny
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If I may ask why do you prefer the Glock over the M&P
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Old January 5, 2016, 10:12 AM   #39
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I try not to advocate one pistol over another here (at least these days). I find pistols are very subjective when it comes to shooting and most are roughly equally reliable when talking about the ~$500 striker fired pistol.

Since you asked, my personal reasons stem from a few factors. I like the fact that I can look at a Glock and tell that the striker is cocked. If the trigger is forward then the striker is cocked (it will stay to the rear when the striker is released). On an M&P you have no such visual option. Coming from hammer fired pistols it's a quirk of mine that I like that visual cue.

I find I shoot a Glock with a stock trigger essentially just as well as an M&P with an APEX trigger slow fire, and actually better when I pick up the pace. All else being equal, I'd prefer to use a pistol in the stock configuration when it comes to self defense. On Glocks I add Talon Grips, replace the magazine release, sights, and I polish the trigger bar, but that's it. I don't mess with the firing mechanism or trigger pull weight. On an M&P I always put in an APEX kit (though the newer M&Ps really don't seem to need it). Massad Ayoob has a number of articles about modifying firearms and the legal implications. The general result is that as long as the modifications don't lead to you claiming you "accidentally" pressed the trigger when you didn't mean to, you'll be fine. I also live in a very pro self-defense state. However, I still prefer not to go down that road if I can and in this case all else was actually equal (it usually isn't).

Though these days I carry a Glock 26 with the factory +2 baseplates, which is very similar to the M&P 9c in terms of size, I do at times carry a Glock 19. I find the slightly smaller size makes a difference to me when it comes to concealment compared to the fullsize M&P.

The last factor was I personally have had QC issues with a number of M&Ps. I had an M&P 45c that would fail to feed when you fired more than 50 or so rounds. I had an M&P 9 fullsize where the trigger was malformed and rubbed on the frame during the press creating a heavier than normal trigger pull. I had an M&P 9c that ejected straight to the 6 o'clock position and right into my forehead. I had an M&P Shield where the trigger safety would not engage between shots (it fell under the recall that happened). Lastly I had an M&P 9c where at around 800 rds the slide and barrel started peening and the sear housing block wouldn't sit tightly in the frame causing it to tilt (I had to expand the trigger bar loop to account for the off chance where the trigger bar was pushing the housing up at the same time as actuating the sear otherwise the striker wouldn't release).

Now, all these issues were fixed by S&W. But it's been my experience that they use their lifetime warranty as a form of QC rather than being more diligent before the pistols leave the factory. There will be many folks here that have had no such issues with M&Ps. I'm a statistician by trade and one man with a few samples isn't enough to judge a whole model line and that's why I gave S&W multiple tries. But what made me stop in the end was the variety of issues I kept finding. I have had issues with Glocks in the past with ejected cases bouncing off my head (none so bad as that M&P 9c) and generally less than ideal ejection. But the firearm still functioned, using "hotter" ammo (such as self defense loads) generally made those problems go away, and that was typically the only issue so I knew to look for it (I've owned easily half a dozen Glocks as well) and I have a few tricks to try to remedy that problem if it arises.

Given the issues I had and the fact that I shot Glocks as well or better made me switch from M&Ps to Glocks. However, this is just my personal experience. I'm of the opinion that each shooter has to find what works best for him/her.
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Keep your muzzle oriented so that no one will be hurt if the firearm discharges
Keep your finger off the trigger until you have an adequate sight picture
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Old January 6, 2016, 01:19 PM   #40
marine6680
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I have 3 M&P pistols, and have had no issues with them...

So, as he said, one person's bad luck does not doom a firearm design.

Most have no issues with their M&P, it is a well liked and respected pistol.


I try to look at several people's experience with a particular firearm, I read and watch several reviews. I also take in account that people are more likely to take time to express complaints than praise.


As was said, most striker pistols at the $500ish price range are generally equally reliable and well made.


You will most likely have no issues with your M&P. And it's likely that you will end up with another pistol in the future, even if it isn't an M&P, it's still a backup.
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Old January 6, 2016, 03:43 PM   #41
TunnelRat
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Thanks for summarizing what I said to an extent. I think I was pretty fair (that was my goal). As we both said, one person's experience doesn't encapsulate an entire brand or model, but when asked I'll go into details (FWIW) but I always cover that caveat.
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Know the status of your weapon
Keep your muzzle oriented so that no one will be hurt if the firearm discharges
Keep your finger off the trigger until you have an adequate sight picture
Maintain situational awareness

Last edited by TunnelRat; January 6, 2016 at 04:05 PM.
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Old January 6, 2016, 04:04 PM   #42
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So much depends on the ammunition. Low power target rounds cause less wear than high powered ones. Stronger springs can slow down wear, just make sure they don't impede functioning.
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Old January 7, 2016, 06:17 PM   #43
JeepGunny
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Since we are this far into it. I have a Glock 30s gen 3 1/2 is the hump on the G4 Glocks as pronounce as the G3's? Or can u choose that with the back straps
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Old January 12, 2016, 01:23 PM   #44
745SW
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IMO rnd cnt durability means everything. Firearms can be many years old making repair impossible or impractical because of the lack of part(s). Only the 1911 and perhaps the 92 have extensive support. Others are propriatory and will end.
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Old January 12, 2016, 02:12 PM   #45
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Watches and arms are generally supported for 10 yrs after production. Many brands of watches use an outside OEM supplier for the guts (movement/module). The guts are usually available well beyond 10 yrs. This can't be said of arms.
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Old January 12, 2016, 02:24 PM   #46
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Reliability and longevity from caliber and style

Quote:
Firearms can be many years old making repair impossible or impractical because of the lack of part(s). Only the 1911 and perhaps the 92 have extensive support. Others are propriatory and will end.


I would say it depends on the manufacturer and the success of the model. If the model is successful and is in the market for a number of years and the manufacturer stays around then you can usually still get parts. Case in point would be the Third Gen S&W semiautos. It's still pretty easy to find parts and mags, especially if you call S&W. How many years that will be true is definitely a question. It would be nice to find a pistol you like and be assured that support will continue until you no longer want it or are no longer able to receive it. However, much like automobiles there is a typically a finite shelf life. Though some designs seem to stick around as you mentioned.
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