Purchasing a shotgun out of state

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by BigJimP

I think the key issue here ...is what does Iowa define as a "resident"... -- and I did not look it up so I don't know. The OP can look it up ...and see if he is in compliance or not --- but it makes no difference in terms of what the OP thinks he's doing there( he says he visiting and working a seasonal job there ) ...vs what the state defines as a resident.

No, this has absolutely nothing to do with what the state thinks. This whole discussion has been about federal law and the definition of residency when it comes to buying a firearm. The 4473 requires a specific and very simple definition of residency that I already linked to in post #42. And unless Iowa adds in their own more restrictive requirements when buying a firearm (and I don't think they do), this is the only definition that matters:

Originally Posted by the ATF

A person’s “State of residence” is defined by regulation in 27 CFR 478.11 as “the State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State.” Ownership of a home or land within a given State is not sufficient, by itself, to establish a State of residence. However, ownership of a home or land within a particular State is not required to establish presence and intent to make a home in that State. Furthermore, temporary travel, such as short-term stays, vacations, or other transient acts in a State are not sufficient to establish a State of residence because the individual demonstrates no intention of making a home in that State.

The OP rented out his house and now he makes a home in Iowa. That means he became a resident of Iowa the moment he crossed the Iowa border. And the moment he crosses back into Texas with the intention of living there, he will be a resident of Texas.

Originally Posted by BigJimP

I don't know if the OP is a resident of TX or Iowa.. its up to what Iowa defines as a Resident. It doesn't make any difference what he thinks or what he wants.

For the purpose of buying a firearm under federal law, he's a resident of Iowa when he resides in Iowa and he's a resident of Texas when he's in Texas.

This whole residency thing when buying a firearm confuses people to no end. But just remember, it has nothing to do with where you own property, it has nothing to do with where you pay taxes, it has nothing to do with where you're registered to vote; it's simply where you currently reside at this moment.

There are other definitions of residency that are for different purposes, but we're specifically talking about the residency requirements to buy a firearm under federal law.

[Dreaming100Straight]

Look at it this way. Under Federal law your state of residence is the one in which you are present with the intention of making a home in that state, even if you also intend to maintain homes in other states.

[BigJimP]

Ok, I get it...my apology ( I should have read the back of the form more closely ).

[Blindstitch]

This brings up way to many question but here we go.

I don't know anything about the OP but what if you have a traveling circus or carnival that say spends 6 months traveling per year and you stop in an area for 3 days and then move on to the next. To make this more fun lets say you dance across borders. Like say you go around Lake Michigan say 3 days in Kalamazoo, Michigan, the next 3 days in Gary, Indiana, 3 more days in Des plains, Illinois, and 3 more days in Milwaukee, Wisconsin with a day off between each show. That's 2 weeks in 4 states. But the person lives in Texas, maintains a home in Texas, wishes they were in Texas, And will be returning to Texas as soon as possible?

What is this persons residence?

On another note Wisconsin wouldn't let me be a resident for 3 years even though I had a lease for a place, work Id's, resided there 7 days a week. It wasn't till I walked into the DMV with my federal tax documents that they said we SHOULD accept these to prove residency. Then someone finally pushed it through. At the time I was maintaining a mailbox in Michigan because they wouldn't let me in the first 6 trips to the DMV over 3 years.

[alfredr]

I see the question coming down to, what does "intention of making a home in that state" mean. My son just went to Wyoming to work at a resort for 5 or 6 months. But as far as I know, he doesn't intend to make a home there. His home is still Georgia. He may be living, working, eating and sleeping there for 5 months, but with no intention of making a home there. So that makes him not a resident of Wyo. for ATF purposes, correct?

I think I understand the OP to be thinking the same way about his residency. So using his Texas ID and address, he would not be committing a felony because he does not intend to make a home in Iowa.

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by alfredr

So using his Texas ID and address, he would not be committing a felony because he does not intend to make a home in Iowa.

He rented out his home in Texas and he is now living in an RV in Iowa. I'm no lawyer, but it seems pretty clear-cut that he's an Iowa resident. He sure isn't a Texas resident; he rented out his Texas home and he's not currently living there.

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by alfredr

My son just went to Wyoming to work at a resort for 5 or 6 months. But as far as I know, he doesn't intend to make a home there. His home is still Georgia. He may be living, working, eating and sleeping there for 5 months, but with no intention of making a home there. So that makes him not a resident of Wyo. for ATF purposes, correct?

No, it sure looks to me like he's a resident of Wyoming. He's currently living in Wyoming. He's not currently living in Georgia. It seems to me like he'd have a real hard time convincing a court that he's currently living in Georgia since he's not.

In this case, "intent" doesn't mean "where do you feel your original home is", it means "where do you plan to live right now". Your son was a resident of Wyoming the moment he set foot in that state with the intent to live there.

[Theohazard]

This might help clarify the ATF's position on residency in multiple states:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...lXTHeHneDcJIPw

Originally Posted by the ATF

“State of residence” is defined by regulation in 27 C.F.R. 178.11 as the State in which an individual regularly resides or maintains a home. The regulation also provides an example of an individual who maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. The individual regularly resides in State X except for the summer months and in State Y for the summer months of the year. The regulation states that during the time the individual actually resides in State X he is a resident of State X, and during the time he actually resides in State Y he is a resident of State Y.

[Blindstitch]

The ATF download example although it sounds dumb makes sense because they defined it and most college semesters are 16 weeks being just a bit over 3 months depending on vacations and ceremonies.

But it seems like they should really add a clause in there stating minimum time. But it's the ATF's rule so they can do what they want.

I bet there are tons of people that answer that question wrong and they don't know.

[Blindstitch]

Holy wow is this confusing. And here's where I got it.
https://www.atf.gov/file/55496/download

18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3): PROHIBITED TRANSPORTATION OR RECEIPT
18 U.S.C. 922(a)(5): PROHIBITED TRANSFER BY NON-LICENSEE
18 U.S.C. 922(a)(9): PROHIBITED RECEIPT BY NON-RESIDENT
18 U.S.C. 922(b)(3): PROHIBITED TRANSFER BY LICENSEE
18 U.S.C. 922(t): REQUIREMENTS TO TRANSFER FIREARMS
27 CFR 478.11: DEFINITIONS (STATE OF RESIDENCE)
27 CFR 478.11: DEFINITIONS (IDENTIFICATION DOCUMENT)
27 CFR 478.124: FIREARMS TRANSACTION RECORD
For the purpose of acquiring firearms under the Gun Control Act of 1968, a United States citizen who temporarily resides in a foreign country, but who also demonstrates the intention of making a home in a particular State, is a resident of the State during the time period he or she actually resides in that State. The intention of making a home in a State must be demonstrated to a Federal firearms licensee by presenting valid identification documents. Such documents include, but are not limited to, driver’s licenses, voter registration, tax records, or vehicle registration.
ATF Rul. 2010-6
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) has received inquiries seeking clarification as to whether, under Federal law, United States citizens who maintain residences in both a foreign country and a particular State may purchase firearms while in the State.
The Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA), as amended, Title 18, United States Code (U.S.C.), section 922(a)(3) prohibits any person not licensed under the GCA (nonlicensees) from receiving any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside the State in which the person resides. Furthermore, section 922(a)(9) provides, in part, that it is unlawful for any unlicensed person who does not reside in any State to receive any firearm unless such receipt is for lawful sporting purposes. Pursuant to section 922(b)(3), the GCA also prohibits licensees from selling or delivering firearms to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in the State in which the licensee’s place of business is located. Section 922(a)(5) extends the prohibition, with some limited exceptions, to any unlicensed person transferring a firearm to anyone who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in the transferor’s State of residence.
A person’s “State of residence” is defined by regulation in 27 CFR 478.11 as “the State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a
- 2 -
State with the intention of making a home in that State.” Ownership of a home or land
within a given State is not sufficient, by itself, to establish a State of residence. However,
ownership of a home or land within a particular State is not required to establish presence
and intent to make a home in that State. Furthermore, temporary travel, such as short-term
stays, vacations, or other transient acts in a State are not sufficient to establish a State of
residence because the individual demonstrates no intention of making a home in that State.
To ensure compliance with this residency requirement, section 922(t) of the GCA requires
licensees to examine a valid “identification document” (as defined in 18 U.S.C. 1028(d)
and 27 CFR 478.11) of a firearm transferee. This document must contain the residence
address of the transferee so that the licensee may verify the identity of the transferee and
discern whether the transferee has the intention of making a home in a particular State.
Licensees transferring a firearm to a person not licensed under the GCA are required,
pursuant to 27 CFR 478.124, to record the firearm transaction on an ATF Form 4473,
which requires, among other things, the transferee’s residence address, including the
transferee’s State of residence as it appears on the valid identification document.
The term “identification document” is defined by 18 U.S.C. 1028(d)(3) as “a document
made or issued by or under the authority of the United States Government, a State, political
subdivision of a State . . . which, when completed with information concerning a particular
individual, is of a type intended or commonly accepted for the purpose of identification of
individuals.” The regulations, 27 CFR 478.11, define the term “identification document”
as “[a] document containing the name, residence address, date of birth, and photograph of
the holder and which was made or issued by or under the authority of the United States
Government, a State, political subdivision of a State . . . which, when completed with
information concerning a particular individual, is of a type intended or commonly accepted
for the purpose of identification of individuals.” Identification documents include, but are
not limited to, a driver’s license, voter registration, tax records, or vehicle registration. As
explained in ATF Ruling 2001-5 (ATFQB 2001-4, 37), a combination of valid government
documents may be used to satisfy the GCA’s State residency requirement.
ATF has previously addressed the eligibility of individuals to acquire firearms who
maintain residences in more than one State. Federal regulations at 27 CFR 478.11
(definition of State of Residence), Example 2, clarify that a U.S. citizen with homes in two
States may, during the period of time the person actually resides in a particular State,
purchase a firearm in that State. See also ATF Publication 5300.4 (2005), Question and
Answer B12, page 179. Similarly, in ATF Ruling 80-21 (ATFB 1980-4, 25), ATF held
that, during the time college students actually reside in a college dormitory or at an offcampus
location, they are considered residents of the State where the on-campus or offcampus
housing is located.
The same reasoning applies to citizens of the United States who reside temporarily outside
of the country for extended periods of time, but who also maintain residency in a particular
State. Where a citizen temporarily resides outside of the country, but also has the intention
of making a home in a particular State, the citizen is a resident of the State during the time
he or she actually resides in that State. In acquiring a firearm, the individual must
- 3 -
demonstrate to the transferor-licensee that he or she is a resident of the State by presenting valid identification documents.
Held, for the purpose of acquiring firearms under the Gun Control Act of 1968, a United States citizen who temporarily resides in a foreign country, but who also demonstrates the intention of making a home in a particular State, is a resident of the State during the time period he or she actually resides in that State.
Held further, the intention of making a home in a State must be demonstrated to a Federal firearms licensee by presenting valid identification documents. Such documents include, but are not limited to, driver’s licenses, voter registration, tax records, or vehicle registration.
Date approved: November 10, 2010

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by Blindstitch

Holy wow is this confusing.

The details can be confusing, but it's actually pretty simple in a broad sense:

Example A: Do you currently live in state X? If so, you're a resident of state X.

Example B: Do you live in state X but you're on a short-term vacation in state Y or just passing through state Y? Then you're a resident of state X.

Example C: Do you primarily live in state X but you're temporarily living in state Y? Then you're a resident of state Y while you're physically living in state Y, and you're a resident of state X when you're physically living in state X.

Basically it breaks down to this: Where are you currently living at this moment? Of course, complicated situations like you outlined in the first paragraph of post #54 are probably best left to lawyers, but most situations are fairly straightforward, like the OP's situation.

Originally Posted by Blindstitch

On another note Wisconsin wouldn't let me be a resident for 3 years even though I had a lease for a place, work Id's, resided there 7 days a week. It wasn't till I walked into the DMV with my federal tax documents that they said we SHOULD accept these to prove residency. Then someone finally pushed it through. At the time I was maintaining a mailbox in Michigan because they wouldn't let me in the first 6 trips to the DMV over 3 years.

For the purpose of buying a firearm per federal law, you were a resident of Wisconsin the moment you set foot in the state.

[alfredr]

From post #60 by blind stitch, after the code listings, ...intention of making
a home.... Demonstrated by presenting identification documents... Driver's license, voter id, tax records, vehicle registration ".

If he gets nothing like that in Wyoming or Iowa, he shows no intention of "making a home" there, as I understand it, therefore is still a resident of his home state, and not of the state where he is temporarily living.

Home is where the heart is, unless you have documents showing your home is somewhere else.

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by alfredr

If he gets nothing like that in Wyoming or Iowa, he shows no intention of "making a home" there, as I understand it, therefore is still a resident of his home state, and not of the state where he is temporarily living.

Home is where the heart is, unless you have documents showing your home is somewhere else.

No. No, no, no. Where's that "pounding your head against the wall" emoticon like they have over on THR?

Have you read absolutely nothing that Dogtown or I have written so far? Have you actually read the ATF rulings that Dogtown, Blindstitch, and I have posted? That link that Blindstitch provided simply mentions the documents one can use to prove residency, it doesn't say that those documents are needed to establish residency. Residency is established simply by being present in a state and living there (or intending to live there), even temporarily. If you're temporarily living in a state, then you're a resident of that state while you're living there. Period. The ATF is very clear on this.

And in the case you mentioned, he didn't just intend to make a home, he made a home. He's living there. Residency has absolutely zero to do with "where your heart is", it's simply where you live at this moment, even if it's temporary.

Like I already pointed out, the "intention" part has nothing to do with where you feel your original home is. If you cross the border into a state with the intent to actually live there -- even temporarily -- you're a resident of that state the moment you enter that state. The "intent" part is to allow you to be a resident before you actually have a home established since you are planning to establish one as soon as possible.

Also, just because the state might not issue you the proper documentation proving that residency, that doesn't mean the feds don't consider you a resident of that state. Like I said, you're a resident of a state the moment you set foot in that state with the intent to live there. After that, it's up to you to prove it with the proper documentation.

Many people are confused with the federal residency requirements to buy a gun because they think it's way more complicated than it really is. But it's actually pretty simple: Do you currently live in state X? Then you're currently a resident of state X. That's it.

[alfredr]

I have indeed read pretty much everything that has been posted although I haven't followed links to read other stuff. What I am trying to say is that the phrase "intention to make a home"' sounds like it ought to put the common sense back into the ATF view of where you are a resident of.

If I do not intend to make or establish Wyoming as my home, I will not register to vote, get my driver's license, register my car, etc. even though I will be living there for several months straight. Thus, if I go to buy a shotgun in Wyoming, I will be an out-of-state buyer and my current residence is still Georgia. ( I don,t have the 4473 form in front of me to know the exact questions asked.)

And I won't have any documents to show my "residence" in Wyoming if the clerk happens to ask where I am living right now. How can I be a resident of Wyoming if I feel I am only there temporarily and don't intend to make my home there. Common sense definition and what the ATF would seem to allow for a sensible interpretation with the phrase "intention of making a home".

A reasonable person's understanding of where they reside is not simply "where they are living at the time." If courts have ruled definitively on this, or if people have gotten into trouble with ATF, whether purchaser or FFL holder, would be evidence that common sense is not acceptable. And that would be quite believable when dealing with the government. But I see it as a reasonable response and don't feel I like need to fear being charged with a felony.

And I believe I have said all I need to about this.

Thanks to all for trying to set me straight on this even though I think your straight looks complicated to me.

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by alfredr

What I am trying to say is that the phrase "intention to make a home"' sounds like it ought to put the common sense back into the ATF view of where you are a resident of.

I think you're missing the point of the phrase "intention to make a home". It doesn't mean that someone can move to Florida, but since they are originally from Texas and they intend to eventually buy a home in Texas someday that means they're a resident of Texas. No, it the word "intent" allows someone to move to Florida and immediately be considered a resident of Florida even if they haven't found a place to live yet.

Actually, I'd argue that the ATF's definition of residency is more common sense than any other definition: It doesn't get all complicated by considering "where your heart is", it doesn't consider where you eventually intend to buy a house and settle down. No, it simply considers where you're currently living at that moment. Pretty darn simple.

My wife and I moved to WA because she got a five-year surgical residency here. Neither of us had any friends or family here. We didn't plan to make this state our permanent home, we intended to move elsewhere after her residency is over. But the moment we crossed the border into WA, we were considered residents as far as the feds are concerned, and that's because both of us intended to live here for the time being.

Originally Posted by alfredr

How can I be a resident of Wyoming if I feel I am only there temporarily and don't intend to make my home there. Common sense definition and what the ATF would seem to allow for a sensible interpretation with the phrase "intention of making a home".

You're a resident of Wyoming because you're living there. It doesn't matter if you don't feel like it's your real home. It doesn't matter that you don't have any documentation that says you're a resident. All that matters is that federal law has a very simple definition of residency that doesn't bother with complications such as where you feel your real home is, it simply defines it as where you're currently living.

Originally Posted by alfredr

But I see it as a reasonable response and don't feel I like need to fear being charged with a felony.

If the ATF used your definition of residency, how would anyone ever enforce it? How does one prove residency based on feelings? How would I prove that I consider Texas my state of residence based soley on the fact that I want to eventually move back to Texas?

Sure, I think we both can agree that you shouldn't need to be a resident of any specific state in order to buy a firearm anywhere in the US. But what we think doesn't matter, all that matters is what the law says and how the authorities interpret it.

And as far as gun laws go, this one is pretty simple and common sense. You're a resident of the state in which you currently live. That's pretty straightforward.

[Dreaming100Straight]

Think of making a home in a state as including something more than visiting it for a weekend or vacation. It includes making a temporary home even though you may think that your principal home is in another state. Your home is not the same as your residence under Federal law.

Under federal law while you keep homes in different states, for purposes of gun buying you are a resident of the state in which you both maintain a home and are physically present.

While state law may treat you as being the resident of one state at a particular time, watch out for state laws since a particular state may consider you its resident while the Feds treat another state as such.

Theohazard, Federal law does NOT define residence as where you are currently living. You have to be present with the intention of making a home in the state, even if you intend to maintain homes in other states. It can be a single family residence that you are own or rent, and apartment, or an RV. You can sleep on the streets and still intend to make a home.

As for proof of intent, it can be difficult but objective evidence tends to manifest subjective intent. Where do you vote, where are you a member of clubs or religious organizations, and any other contacts with a situs. Compare that with contacts with the state in which you purchase firearms. So you only travel there to purchase firearms? If so it wouldn't be hard to convince the trier of fact, albeit the judge or jury, that you were not a resident of the state in which you bought the firearm.

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by Dreaming100Straight

Theohazard, Federal law does NOT define residence as where you are currently living.

Residency requires that you make a home in that state. "Making a home" simply means that you've established a place to live and you're currently living there. So how is that different from defining residency as where you currently live?

[dogtown tom]

Dreaming100Straight ..... Federal law does NOT define residence as where you are currently living.

You need to read the link I posted on page one of this thread, here it is again:
https://www.atf.gov/file/55496/download

The third paragraph begins with A person’s “State of residence” is defined by regulation in 27 CFR 478.11 as “the State in which an individual resides.....

Since Question 2 on the Form 4473 asks for the buyer/transferees CURRENT RESIDENCE ADDRESS.......it darn well better be where you are actually living.

Everyone loves to rail against ATF for all their faults, but their VERY liberal interpretation of "State of Residence" actually makes buying firearms EASIER. If a gun buyer had to "establish" residency in the same manner as they would to pay taxes, vote, run for public office, serve on a jury, etc.......you guys would be complaining about ATF overreach. The fact is ATF is only concerned where you CURRENTLY reside.

Understand that "state of residence" FOR THE PURPOSES OF ACQUIRING FIREARMS has nothing to do with what a city/county/state requires in order to vote, run for office, etc.

As for proof of intent, it can be difficult but objective evidence tends to manifest subjective intent. Where do you vote, where are you a member of clubs or religious organizations, and any other contacts with a situs. Compare that with contacts with the state in which you purchase firearms. So you only travel there to purchase firearms? If so it wouldn't be hard to convince the trier of fact, albeit the judge or jury, that you were not a resident of the state in which you bought the firearm.

What a load of rubbish. Read the link to ATF Ruling 2010-6 above.

[Dreaming100Straight]

dogtown: How do I put this, but you are clueless as to the law of residency for purposes of firearms acquisition.

Theohazard: Good question. Making a home in a state does not mean that you take up residence in a traditional home such as an apartment or a house, whether you rent, buy or squat. You can just as well live in a cardboard box in an alley, pitch a tent in a park, or live in a car or even an RV. What you put down on a 4473 for an address is a problem to address to BATF, but I would imagine that they would have to accept something like Los Angeles or Portland or simply the State of Texas if you didn't have a fixed address.

I know of a similar issue with corporations organized under Nevada law by persons and companies that have no other contacts with that state other than the fact that they incorporate in Nevada and address they give is none other than that of storefront that serves as the location of hundreds of virtual corporations.

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by Dreaming100Straight

Theohazard: Good question. Making a home in a state does not mean that you take up residence in a traditional home such as an apartment or a house, whether you rent, buy or squat. You can just as well live in a cardboard box in an alley, pitch a tent in a park, or live in a car or even an RV.

I'm well aware of that. That's what I've been posting all along. And that's why your following comment is completely wrong:

Originally Posted by Dreaming100Straight

Theohazard, Federal law does NOT define residence as where you are currently living.

Actually, that's exactly how federal law defines it. The rest of your post even agrees with me on that.

For the purpose of buying a firearm, federal law defines residence as where you're currently living. Whether you own a home, rent an apartment, squat in an abandoned building, pitch a tent, or live in a car or an RV; residence is simply defined as where you're currently living.

[dogtown tom]

Dreaming100Straight dogtown: How do I put this, but you are clueless as to the law of residency for purposes of firearms acquisition.

Okay smart guy.........show me where anything I posted is incorrect.
I've already pointed out your errors and posted the citation to ATF regulations to back up my opinion.

Now it's your turn.

[Dreaming100Straight]

I will let you figure it out. What you think backs up your opinion does nothing of the sort. I suggest you listen to those who wish to waste their time educating you, but I don't have the time to waste and feel no need to validate anything by arguing with you.

Theohazard, The acts I mentioned may not be necessary to establishing residency for firearms acquisition, but they and numerous other acts demonstrate that one's presence is not transient but the individual intends to make a home in the state.

[dogtown tom]

Dreaming100Straight I will let you figure it out. What you think backs up your opinion does nothing of the sort. I suggest you listen to those who wish to waste their time educating you, but I don't have the time to waste and feel no need to validate anything by arguing with you.

So........you basically admit you have no clue what YOU are talking about. Figures.

[FITASC]

Also, just because the state might not issue you the proper documentation proving that residency, that doesn't mean the feds don't consider you a resident of that state. Like I said, you're a resident of a state the moment you set foot in that state with the intent to live there. After that, it's up to you to prove it with the proper documentation.

So when someone in this position goes to the FFL to get his gun, but he has an out of state pic id; he would still be GTG using a utility bill or similar from the state he is currently living in? What about the guy with the RV? How does he convince the FFL he is a current resident of the state he is currently in?

[Dreaming100Straight]

Dogtown,

You said that it was rubbish where I pointed out the objective criteria, such as where you vote and where you attend church, can be used to test one's claim of their subjective intent. That is exactly what Rule 2010-6 means where it talks about how "transient acts in a State are not sufficient to establish a State of residence because the individual demonstrates no intention of making a home in that State."

The factors I mentioned above in the post you called "rubbish" are just the kind of criteria that one is unable to objectively demonstrate in order to test one's claim of subjective intent.