Windage way off on new AR build

bushmaster65 · July 28, 2016, 05:02 PM

Afternoon gents,

I have a new stagarms full size AR-15A2 model that I recieved back in February.
Took it to the local range that had a 25m zero range and even found some old US Army zero targets from my service days to bring along.
I was shocked that it took 34-36 clicks to the right to zero the rifle!
Once I zeroed her I produced a 3 shot group I could cover with the tip of my thumb.
During my eight years of service I NEVER heard of any rifle, civilian or military that was that messed up!
So I take it to a local gun smith that does AR builds and he says he has no idea why its that far off and that there is nothing he can do.
So before I contact Stagarms I was looking for some second opinions. If I send the upper back to Stag, is there anything that can be done?
Any ideas as to what might cause this?

Thanx in advance for the input

Bushmaster65
Texas

tangolima · July 28, 2016, 07:48 PM

Optics or iron sight?

-TL

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

Mobuck · July 28, 2016, 09:19 PM

Actual A-2 or flat top (A-3) with a clamp on rear sight/carry handle?

bushmaster65 · July 29, 2016, 07:07 AM

My apologies for not being more specific.

We're talking iron sights with a clamp on carry handle.
Again, everything is brand new.

thanx
bush

tangolima · July 29, 2016, 07:39 AM

0.5moa per click. 35 clicks. That was 17.5moa off. So the poi at 25 yards was 4.5" off to the side? Windage was centered to start with?

Something could have been bent; the sights or the barrel.

I would

1. Reinstall the carry handle, and test fire.

2. Bore sight to check against the iron sights.

3. Swap out the carry handle and test fire.

4. Swap out barrel and test fire.

-TL

ballardw · July 29, 2016, 08:14 AM

Which rear sight aperture did you use? Try both and see if the POI changes.

DnPRK · July 30, 2016, 12:44 AM

That much windage makes me believe the front sight base is canted.

Gunplummer · July 30, 2016, 05:05 PM

This ^^^^

hoghunting · July 31, 2016, 04:46 PM

Quote:

That much windage makes me believe the front sight base is canted.

I agree too, is the base pinned or using set screws? If set screws you can loosen the screws and reset the sight.

Ibmikey · August 1, 2016, 04:22 AM

Here is another guess since we do not have a photo to give basic information. If you have a rail it coulld be off center enough to cause that kind of a problem and is easily correctable.

Mobuck · August 1, 2016, 07:12 AM

"We're talking iron sights with a clamp on carry handle."

That set-up is the most likely culprit. If the carry handle didn't come with the rifle/upper, I wouldn't consider it to be Stag's problem to fix.
I kept a couple of clamp on rear sights for sale when a buyer wanted such. I sold them with the caveat that "they may or may not line up" so "don't expect to just stick it on and hit anything" w/o proper adjustment. The ones I've seen run the gamut from outright junk to sort of adequate.

Ibmikey · August 1, 2016, 09:42 AM

Mobuck, My thoughts were on the front sight as he did not say he has a pinned gas block/ front sight. You are certainly right about carry handles...i have two, one was given me and no idea who made it foreign or domestic uses all windage to get on target. The second I bought from a supplier ( forgot which) and paid about $75. Although it works better than the first i have found the bottom of the parts drawer is the best place to mount both.

bushmaster65 · August 19, 2016, 02:16 PM

Sorry about taking so long to respond. I'm a nurse and work 48-60 hrs/wk.

Having said that, I had time to place the upper upside down on its sights on a polished cast iron table saw and the LEFT side of the rear sight was showing obvious daylight. When i placed the rear sight flush on the table then the RIGHT dog ear of the front sight showed an obvious gap. you could hear it tap as you rocked it back and forth.

This weekend I'm going to take two levels and try to determine whether the rear sight is canted.

I have written Stag Arms 3 e-mails and the only response I have received is an in box full of advertisements to buy more items. Nothing else.

I'll look to see if the front sight is pinned or screw set.

If there is one thing I can't stand, it's buying brand new, dysfunctional merchandise.

I'll update soon

Thanx for the help thus far.

**44 AMP** · August 19, 2016, 04:40 PM

"Clamp on" is your most likely culprit. Tolerances matter. How you clamped it might matter.

Quite frankly, any kind of clamp on sight is a crap shoot whether or not it will be properly lined up. Bottom line though, is, "can you zero the rifle?" If yes, what's the problem? if no, then it needs to be fixed.

One quick easy TEMPORARY field fix is simply put a shim between the mount and the clamp. You can use a piece cut from a business card. It will work, and give you an idea how thick a permanent shim would have to be, should you decide to go that route.

bushmaster65 · August 22, 2016, 07:37 PM

Well,
I used two bubble levels and as near as I can tell, the rear site is canted up to the right.
The front site is pinned.
I've e-mailed Stagarms three times and received no reply at all. Not even a "not our problem" message. (lots and lots of e-mails to buy more of their stuff though)
I realize to some, this is a minor problem. To me it is not. Stagarms advertises their rifles are built to "mil spec".
If clamp on carry handles are junk or have "hit or miss" functionality, then they damn well should let their customers know this. I'm from the old school and expect something I buy to function as advertised. Hell, I'm sure this is an easy fix but I am not a gunsmith. being ignored by the manufacturer just adds insult to injury.
I bought this model to specifically "dress up" like an old A1. change out the hand guards and put a pickle fork on her. It's a little nostalgic for me and historic as well.
But in order to get even close to "mil spec", I'm going to have to have the gas block replaced so I can then buy after market sites.
Done with Stagarms
I do appreciate the assistance gentlemen.

firewrench044 · August 23, 2016, 06:03 PM

I have replaced 3 barrels with this problem

The pin on the rear of the barrel is in the wrong place
Indexing the barrel wrong
( checked front sights and they were good )
All 16 inch marked - CRUSADER, 5.56 NATO 1/9

I replaced the barrel assemblies

July 28, 2016, 05:02 PM	#1
bushmaster65 Senior Member Join Date: July 11, 2012 Location: Central Texas Posts: 140	Windage way off on new AR build Afternoon gents, I have a new stagarms full size AR-15A2 model that I recieved back in February. Took it to the local range that had a 25m zero range and even found some old US Army zero targets from my service days to bring along. I was shocked that it took 34-36 clicks to the right to zero the rifle! Once I zeroed her I produced a 3 shot group I could cover with the tip of my thumb. During my eight years of service I NEVER heard of any rifle, civilian or military that was that messed up! So I take it to a local gun smith that does AR builds and he says he has no idea why its that far off and that there is nothing he can do. So before I contact Stagarms I was looking for some second opinions. If I send the upper back to Stag, is there anything that can be done? Any ideas as to what might cause this? Thanx in advance for the input Bushmaster65 Texas __________________ "Why Johnny Ringo, you look like somebody just walked over your grave."

July 29, 2016, 07:07 AM	#4
bushmaster65 Senior Member Join Date: July 11, 2012 Location: Central Texas Posts: 140	My apologies for not being more specific. We're talking iron sights with a clamp on carry handle. Again, everything is brand new. thanx bush __________________ "Why Johnny Ringo, you look like somebody just walked over your grave."

July 29, 2016, 08:14 AM	#6
ballardw Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2008 Posts: 1,411	Which rear sight aperture did you use? Try both and see if the POI changes. __________________ -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ All data is flawed, some just less so.

August 19, 2016, 02:16 PM	#13
bushmaster65 Senior Member Join Date: July 11, 2012 Location: Central Texas Posts: 140	update Sorry about taking so long to respond. I'm a nurse and work 48-60 hrs/wk. Having said that, I had time to place the upper upside down on its sights on a polished cast iron table saw and the LEFT side of the rear sight was showing obvious daylight. When i placed the rear sight flush on the table then the RIGHT dog ear of the front sight showed an obvious gap. you could hear it tap as you rocked it back and forth. This weekend I'm going to take two levels and try to determine whether the rear sight is canted. I have written Stag Arms 3 e-mails and the only response I have received is an in box full of advertisements to buy more items. Nothing else. I'll look to see if the front sight is pinned or screw set. If there is one thing I can't stand, it's buying brand new, dysfunctional merchandise. I'll update soon Thanx for the help thus far. __________________ "Why Johnny Ringo, you look like somebody just walked over your grave."

August 19, 2016, 04:40 PM	#14
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,846	"Clamp on" is your most likely culprit. Tolerances matter. How you clamped it might matter. Quite frankly, any kind of clamp on sight is a crap shoot whether or not it will be properly lined up. Bottom line though, is, "can you zero the rifle?" If yes, what's the problem? if no, then it needs to be fixed. One quick easy TEMPORARY field fix is simply put a shim between the mount and the clamp. You can use a piece cut from a business card. It will work, and give you an idea how thick a permanent shim would have to be, should you decide to go that route. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

July 28, 2016, 07:48 PM	#2
tangolima Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2013 Posts: 3,827	Optics or iron sight? -TL Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

July 28, 2016, 09:19 PM	#3
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	Actual A-2 or flat top (A-3) with a clamp on rear sight/carry handle?

July 29, 2016, 07:39 AM	#5
tangolima Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2013 Posts: 3,827	0.5moa per click. 35 clicks. That was 17.5moa off. So the poi at 25 yards was 4.5" off to the side? Windage was centered to start with? Something could have been bent; the sights or the barrel. I would 1. Reinstall the carry handle, and test fire. 2. Bore sight to check against the iron sights. 3. Swap out the carry handle and test fire. 4. Swap out barrel and test fire. -TL

July 30, 2016, 12:44 AM	#7
DnPRK Senior Member Join Date: August 24, 2001 Location: LC, Ca Posts: 1,917	That much windage makes me believe the front sight base is canted.

July 30, 2016, 05:05 PM	#8
Gunplummer Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2010 Location: South East Pa. Posts: 3,364	This ^^^^

August 1, 2016, 04:22 AM	#10
Ibmikey Senior Member Join Date: June 1, 2013 Location: Now relocated to Texas Posts: 2,943	Here is another guess since we do not have a photo to give basic information. If you have a rail it coulld be off center enough to cause that kind of a problem and is easily correctable.

August 1, 2016, 07:12 AM	#11
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	"We're talking iron sights with a clamp on carry handle." That set-up is the most likely culprit. If the carry handle didn't come with the rifle/upper, I wouldn't consider it to be Stag's problem to fix. I kept a couple of clamp on rear sights for sale when a buyer wanted such. I sold them with the caveat that "they may or may not line up" so "don't expect to just stick it on and hit anything" w/o proper adjustment. The ones I've seen run the gamut from outright junk to sort of adequate.

August 1, 2016, 09:42 AM	#12
Ibmikey Senior Member Join Date: June 1, 2013 Location: Now relocated to Texas Posts: 2,943	Mobuck, My thoughts were on the front sight as he did not say he has a pinned gas block/ front sight. You are certainly right about carry handles...i have two, one was given me and no idea who made it foreign or domestic uses all windage to get on target. The second I bought from a supplier ( forgot which) and paid about $75. Although it works better than the first i have found the bottom of the parts drawer is the best place to mount both.

August 22, 2016, 07:37 PM	#15
bushmaster65 Senior Member Join Date: July 11, 2012 Location: Central Texas Posts: 140	UPDATE#2 Well, I used two bubble levels and as near as I can tell, the rear site is canted up to the right. The front site is pinned. I've e-mailed Stagarms three times and received no reply at all. Not even a "not our problem" message. (lots and lots of e-mails to buy more of their stuff though) I realize to some, this is a minor problem. To me it is not. Stagarms advertises their rifles are built to "mil spec". If clamp on carry handles are junk or have "hit or miss" functionality, then they damn well should let their customers know this. I'm from the old school and expect something I buy to function as advertised. Hell, I'm sure this is an easy fix but I am not a gunsmith. being ignored by the manufacturer just adds insult to injury. I bought this model to specifically "dress up" like an old A1. change out the hand guards and put a pickle fork on her. It's a little nostalgic for me and historic as well. But in order to get even close to "mil spec", I'm going to have to have the gas block replaced so I can then buy after market sites. Done with Stagarms I do appreciate the assistance gentlemen. __________________ "Why Johnny Ringo, you look like somebody just walked over your grave."

August 23, 2016, 06:03 PM	#16
firewrench044 Senior Member Join Date: July 9, 2007 Location: Fort Pierce, Florida Posts: 381	I have replaced 3 barrels with this problem The pin on the rear of the barrel is in the wrong place Indexing the barrel wrong ( checked front sights and they were good ) All 16 inch marked - CRUSADER, 5.56 NATO 1/9 I replaced the barrel assemblies