SureCwhy not just boycott everybody?!?(long rant!!)

[artech]

First an apology because normally I wouldn't troll a thread like this, but a few people around here are not dealing real well with reality as the rest of us know it. Guys, here's your wake up call.

"Hey, Smith and Wesson caved to the government just to stay in business, so let's really screw them and not buy any more guns! Hey, while we're at it, let's not buy any more Rugers either because they were the first to go with the low-capacity mags! If Winchester and other guys get parts made at these companies, let's not buy those either! That'll show 'em!"

You dudes may not know this, but Smith, Ruger and Thompson Center do a ton of jobwork for most all other firearms manufacturers and any of those companies biting the big one will blow a lot of smaller shops right out of business and increase prices for the rest. Unless you LIKE cheap sintered metal gun parts. Ever take a real good look at a Lorcin?

If you REALLY want to show how mad you are at firearms makers, if you think that boycotting will help you make your point, I got an excellent idea for you. Take all your guns down to the local shop, sell them all off, and send that money directly to HCI headquarters, because driving the manufacturers out of business IS JUST WHAT THEY WANT TO DO, GET IT?!? YOU'RE ONLY HELPING THE ENEMY HERE!! :barf:

Look, I know you're mad, I am too. Only thing is, I have been in the business and seen how it works. Ten years at Bushmaster Firearms taught me more about the inside of the gun business than I ever thought possible, and I can tell you that boycotting the manufacturers is just like cutting your own throat. Sure, you can hurt them, maybe even put them under in the long run, but what are you going to do then? What will you do? Go with a new company?

Think about this for a minute. Imagine you are an up and coming engineer and you enjoy firearms, got a few new ideas, and want to start up your own gun company. Cool, right? The American dream. What bank is going to fund your start up if the large companies in the business are getting mowed down right and left by frivolous lawsuits and consumer boycotts? John M. Browning himself could't get get anything going under those circumstances, he'd still be working behind the counter at the family hardware store. Without consumer support, you won't see ANY new domestic manufacturers.

Foreign makers like Taurus and Rossi? How long do you think it would take some determined ATF bureaucrat to reinterpret some obscure provision of the several import bans and knock them right off the map? Let's not forget that Glocks, Sigs, and H&K's still have to be imported, wholly or partially, and those are also endangered. Now what? We're screwed, and it's our own fault.

I'm pretty simple, I don't have any quick answers for this situation, but there is one thing I do know. You don't defecate where you consume, and boycotting manufacturers, ANY manufacturers, is contraindicated at this time. We are all together in this, and we need to hang together or we'll all hang separately. (think I read that somewhere ) We went through this kind of thing at Bushmaster during the 94 assault rifle ban when people were bailing out of the NRA like rats off a sinking ship. They are not perfect, but they are our best chance to keep our guns.

Hey, it's Christmas, got out and buy yourself something nice!

You guys with flamethrowers, just bring it! I'm dug in deep and got my Nomex on! Got a full belt on the feed tray and more where those come from! I'm sure we'll get some nice sensible debate going here!

[thequickad]

[Edited by thequickad on 12-24-2000 at 01:31 PM]

[RON in PA]

IMHO, what S&W did and continues to do(agreement with Boston)is unpardonable. As far as I am concerned S&W should die and I for one will not buy one of their products until new management repudiates their actions of this year.

While many are pissed at Ruger because of what he did years ago in suggesting a 15 rnd mag max, I think he has recanted and I will buy Ruger products.

But I agree boycotting can play into the hands of the antis.

[LawDog]

Soooo...we don't boycott Smith & Wesson.

What happens? Well, S&W -- and more importantly, every other firearms maker -- learns that cutting a deal to screw over gun owners has no repercussions.

Smith & Wesson was in the same boat financially as every other gun maker out there. The rest of them haven't caved in, and they're still going.

S&W hung our Second Amendment rights out in the wind. And you want us to tell them that agreeing to de facto registration is okay?

The American people and Congress said "NO" to a package of Clintons gun control laws, Smith & Wesson turns around and says, "Okay" to what we turned down -- and we should reward them for this?

S&W said that 25-pound 'child-proof triggers' are perfectly okay by them, and you think we should pat them on the back for it?

Every Smith & Wesson firearm inside of 18 months is going to be battery-powered, stuffed full of the same technology that crashes your computer on a regular basis. Doesn't matter if I don't want a S&W with transistors, S&W bound themselves to do this. And you think that's no big problem?

S&W agreed to bind independant gun dealers and other gun companies to a set of onerous regulations with no purpose whatsoever other than to make life hard for law-abiding people, and we should turn the other cheek?

If Smith and Wesson walks out of this one smelling like a rose, every other gun company is not going to see any reason not to fold to the Government, matter-of-fact, the S&W agreement has many good reasons to knuckle under to the Government -- and when that happens, you and I and everyone else will have nothing but 25-pound triggers and radio-controlled/battery-operated guns to look forward to.

Smith & Wesson can pack it's collective *** with salt and go whiz up a rope. To translate into the vernacular, Smith and Wesson can **** off and die.

Scrooem. :barf:

LawDog

[artech]

Dog, did you even read past the second paragraph? What do you propose to do when there are no maunfacturers left? Zipguns from gas pipe or what?

[thequickad]

Let's change tactics here. The firearm manufactures are yielding to government pressure which was incited by the media. So utimately, it's the anti-gun media's fault. We must put the blame on media like Time-Warner, NBC and LA Times. Let's boycott these instead of S&W. When the public opinion changes in the future, we won't have problem with manufactures.

[cuerno de chivo]

as forrest gump says....

[johnwill]

I'll admit, I'm pretty pissed at what S&W did, and it's doubtful that I will be buying any of their guns soon. OTOH, one poster has the right idea, we need to start hitting the media and their advertisers in the wallet, that's the real enemy! I have no good idea how to do this, but it's sure a better idea than fighting among ourselves...

[LawDog]

Yes, as a matter of fact, I read your entire post. I was particularly impressed with this quote:

You don't defecate where you consume,

You should tattoo it across Smith & Wessons' collective forehead.

What do you propose to do when there are no maunfacturers left? Zipguns from gas pipe or what?

If every other gun maker took the Smith & Wesson deal, we'd be in that very position one hell of a lot faster than a boycott will.

And that's what would happen if we weren't boycotting Smith and Wesson. If we hadn't slapped Smith and Wesson down hard with our boycott, every other gun-maker would have signed up within a month.

Do you want a battery-powered Glock with a 25 pound triggerpull?

Do you want a Beretta with a Windows-based fingerprint ID lock?

If we had rolled over to let our tummies be scratched by Smith and WEsson, every other gun-maker would have signed the deal. No more Glock 17, 19, 22, 23, production of HK USP's would have immediately ceased for the civilian market. A new Berreta 92, 96 or Cougar would immediately be off-limits for non-military/non-LEO purchase, as would the SIG 226, 228, and the 229.

Read the Agreement. No pistols may be made that accept pre-94 full-size magazines. No more full-size 9mm or 40's, and some of the .45's would be verboten, also.

Take a good look at the Glock 26. Imagine it with a childproof 25-pound trigger mandated by the Agreement, and add an electronic thumbprint reader -- that is the only thing you would be allowed to purchase, if Smith and Wesson had their way.

Will we drive Smith and Wesson out of business? I doubt it. Someone else will buy it when the price drops low enough. If that someone else drops the HUD Agreement, gun-owners will go back to Smith and Wesson in droves and hordes.

Until then, let them lie in the bed they made.

LawDog

[bullfrog99]

most of the other gun companys have lawsuits against them, you don't see them signing pacts with the devil. if we forgive s&w then the others will cave and we will have no longer useable guns, but guns with 7 safties and 30 lb trigger pulls, if we have them at all. S&W doesn't fool me a bit. they just did this to do a monica on clinton and allow them to be the future suppliers to government and select police agencys. i say let the bastards die!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[WESHOOT2]

I recently changed my mind (although I'd still buy a used one).

Bye bye S&W.....

(Kimber and the others will most definitely still get parts somewhere. Caspian, of course...)

[artech]

Anybody buying S&W will be breaking it up and selling off the forges and machines, it's too difficult to make a living building guns these days.

On the one hand, you've got an overbearing governmental agency (BATF) that you have to give eleven percent of everything you make to, so they can wrap you up with more red tape and incidentally has to approve every single new design you want to build before you can sell it. That's 11% BEFORE taxes, and never mind the federal, state, and local licensing fees. Never mind the multi-million dollar cost of liability insurance, etc, etc...

On the other hand, you've got a gun buying public that busts your butt for trying to make compromises and stay in business, for trying to protect what you've built.

On the still-other hand, you've got lawyers circling you with visions of billions in fees just dying to sue you just because you make guns which are not moron proof and do not have magical criminal-proof qualities.

Add to this juggling act the constant strain of dealing with day to day quality issues, labor issues, and falling stock prices limiting new development, and it is not a pretty picture. There isn't enough money in police contracts to bother with, that's why not too many companies mess with them. You certainly couldn't make a living on them. Don't you think they know that? Hell, the government is buying FN m-16's and Beretta pistols. Think they care what happens to Smith and Wesson?

I hope you've got enough guns right now to last the rest of your life, 'cause the way you're going you just might need'em. Pretty quick there won't be anyone making them anymore. Nobody will be buying guns with 79 pound triggers and thousand dollar gee-whiz electronics, so those will quickly be off the market leaving what?

Cut 'em some slack, lets see what they come up with. If it sucks, THEN don't buy it. Hey, that's just business, nothing personal. Getting bent out of shape without seeing the new product is a little premature, don't you think?

[beemerb]

I think lawdog nailed it in his posts.You fight for what is right or roll over and die.You want to take what they give you and thats your right but don't force the rest of to do it.S&W is the only company to roll over so they have no B***s and must be punished in some manner.THe boycott is our only weapon.With out it we have no power,and you want us to give that up.No thanks I think you are wrong and I am right so I will not buy S&W.

[Dr45ACP]

The Boston Tea Party was a boycott.

[Westtexas]

artech, you work for S&W? Just kidding.

Lawdog has hit all the valid points. I'll never buy another S&W product again until this company goes under. When *&* sold us out, and Glock refused to, I went out and bought TWO Glocks just to thank them. And I called them, told them what I did, and told them to never give in like the yellow dogs at *&*. That's how we will have gun manufacturers in this country, artech. We will support the one's that support the second amendment, and drive those that would forfeit our rights out of business. Sounds like a plan to me

[Mike Irwin]

the lessons taught to us by men such as John Hancock, Samuel and John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, and Thomas Jefferson, that to oppose the actions of a government that is out of control and injurious to your rights is not only prudent, it is also just.

By signing the agreemnt, Smith & Wesson became a defacto enforcement agent of the government. Read the agreement to see exactly how.

And tell me, just how warm and fuzzy do you feel about a government that uses fiduciary extortion and hollow promises to extract an agreement from a company when it couldn't get similar legislation passed in the United States Congress?

For signing the agreement, Smith & Wesson was:

1. Given an open-ended promise of relief from local, state, and federal lawsuits. To date, only HUD has dropped its lawsuit (S&W subsequently rolled over to Boston), but numerous others are still pending. And "relief" is miniscule, at best.

BUT, the Government also reserved the right to REFILE a lawsuit at a later time, if it so chooses.

2. Promised that it would be given preferential treatment in government firearms contracts.

Guess what? Congress saw the patent illegality of that and refused to allow it.

So, for signing this agreement, just what did Smith & Wesson get?

Let's see, the word I'm looking for starts with an N... Ah! NOTHING! They got NOTHING!

Is this company and its executives so stupid that they would willingly sign an agreement that essentially gives them NOTHING in return? Certainly seems so.

Also, your contention that other shops will be driven out of business if S&W goes out of business is, quite simply, ludicrous.

Those shops that depend on S&W for parts and product will simply contract with ANOTHER manufacturer that does exactly the same thing. If S&W does such a booming business in contract parts, why did they have to lay off 125 people? Why did they double their annual furlough, from one to two months?

Could it be that the contract parts business isn't exactly all that booming?

Did General Motors go out of business when their main supplier of contract brake parts went belly up in the 1970s?

Why gee, NOPE. They simply went out, restructured their supply system, and signed with several contractors so that a similar occurrence wouldn't be so disruptive again.

Smith & Wesson's agreement, and the subsequent backlash by consumers, has provided a VALUABLE object lesson to other firearms manufacturers.

It has given Sig, Beretta, and Glock, and perhaps others, the fortitude to tell the government where to stick the agreement. Sig and Glock still import the majority of their items, I believe. They obviously don't feel to threatened.

As I've noted several other times, the loss of S&W would be an acceptable casualty if it keeps one other manufacturer from signing this agreement.

On the contrary, instead of us sending our money to HCI, perhaps you should send a LARGE donation to the Democratic National Committee.

You obviously see absolutely NO problem with a government that makes you, as a gunowner, a scapegoat for the problems it created and has been unwilling to solve, nor with supporting a Government that does an end run around Congress to do through extortion and hollow promises what it couldn't do through legislation.

[urban assault]

I agree with Lawdog and WestTexas on this one. We need to make an example of S&W to the rest of the firearm manufacturing industry. Support the folks who support our rights and to hell with the rest. S&W is an acceptable casualty in this struggle. I wish it wasnt so, but it is. I dont support a widespread general boycott of those makers who might, from time to time, weaken a bit on the idea standing up for gun owners. I dont support it because it does help the antis. Let me make an analogy...You dont get rid of your dog just because he makes ONE bad mistake. You chastize him and show him the correct behavior. You reward him when he does what you want. But the SECOND that dog goes for your throat... you put him down. Without hesitation. You can't trust that dog ever again can you? What our killing of S&W will do, is it will bring the "problem children" back into line. What is more important, the abilty to buy any gun you want OR the ability to buy any gun at all? Merry christmas to all...

michael

[magnum_force]

Never forgive, never forget. If S&W dies, then they are a casualty of war! Boycott S&W. Fck em, because they said fck you to us, gun owners.

[BobR]

I have to go along with Lawdog and the others here advocating the boycott of *&* to continue. I love my *&*'s, but, I am also learning to really love the other QUALITY gun manufacturers out there. *&* do not make the only decent wheelguns on the planet.

For those who advocate boycotting the people who use *&* parts, all I can say is poo-poo. Where were you when gun owners were boycotting K-Mart because of the fat one:barf:, you weren't advocating boycotting everyone who did business with them like some are now over *&*. It did not make sense to boycott everyone doing business with the K, just as it does not make sense to boycott Kimber and others because they contract work out with *&*.

I do hope *&* goes TU, there must be reprecussions for making unsound decisions, whether business or otherwise. The decision of *&* was most UNWISE.

[bullfrog99]

if you guys are concidering boycoting weatherby and kimber because they buy parts from s&w, then why stop their, don't buy harleys(s&w makes their transmissions) as a matter of fact don't buy anything steel (s&w uses it) nor should you use titanium, and lets boycot the miners that mine such ore or buy any wheelgun based on a s&w design-- there goes taurus, ruger, colt, and everyone els who makes a wheelgun, remember colt only got it's grubby paws on the centerfire wheelgun concept after the s&w patent ran out.etc etc. only smith and wesson scrwed us, don't blame the people who buy parts from or sell things to them, because i have yet to see kimber or weatherby sign the pact with the devil . let smith and wesson die, but don't let them take innocent bystanders with them.

[hube1236]

Because buying a HARLEY does not limit my dealer in anyway. I do not have to wait 14 days to buy a Yamaha from the same guy because harley signed an agreement.

They have limited free trade, even if you do not care about rights issues, I fear the govt trying to make the dealer restrict sales of other wares.

If boycotting, good for you.

[WESHOOT2]

Ruger revolvers are unique, and most definitely NOT based on any S&W design.

I actually do own enough handguns to last many lifetimes.

I really LIKE paying the BATF 11% of my gross receipts; I like the red tape; their over-bearing nature gives me the warm fuzzies of being cared for.

(everybody gotta do sumpthin)

Bye bye S&W (or get your minds right).

[artech]

Man, this is like watching a train wreck...

So noone else here sees anything wrong with putting one of our few domestic gunmakers out of business while supporting foreign manufacturers who depend on the whims of the government for importation rights?

[Dr45ACP]

As long as there is a demand for guns, there will be a supply. Whether this demand is met by S&W or someone else is of no consequence to me.

I hate to see an "American" gunmaker go out of business.
But if they sign agreements like S&W, they arent too American anyway. Don't forget, S&W is now a British owned company.

Let S&W die. I guarantee others will step up to the plate and fill their shoes.

[The Rock]

I hate to break it to you but..

Slick and Weasel is a British-owned firm. They might have a factory here, but so does Honda, BMW, and Toyota. Big effing deal where stuff is made. Question is, who owns who and what are their politics.

They sold out. They will pay the price for abandonment, dishonor, and the utter fact of forsaking the American Gun Owner.

I sold my only *&*. Will not buy a new one. I wanted a nice 8 shot Performace Center gun, but I'll live without it.

TR
It isn't easy owning a gun in Amerika, but it is better than the alternative.