357 Ring Of Fire Presentation

[Davelliott]

This pistol cartridge is the culmination of a dream I had in 1982...to have a pistol cartridge in a rimless, slightly tapered cartridge to increase cartridge capacity and performance in a semi-auto. Back then, it was a 1911.

  Now that pistol design, metallurgy and power chemistry have matured, and bullet designs are better, I began work on this in 2015.


 I've converted both a Glock 29 and a Glock 20 to this new cartridge.

 Where the Glock 29 holds 10 rounds of 10mm, it holds 11 rounds of 357 Ring Of Fire.

 In the Glock 20, which holds 15 rounds of 10mm, it will hold 18 rounds of 357 Ring Of Fire, all with no modifications to the magazines!


 I've had a friend run some numbers for me through his Quickload program, for each bullet weight and length to have pressures between 37,000psi and 45,000psi (the maximum rated pressure for the parent cartridge-the 9mm Winchester Magnum).


 The velocities he sent me were as follows, with Alliant Power Pistol powder:

  1. 1581 feet per second with125 gr. Speer Jacketed Hollow Points, Jacketed Soft Points and Total Metal Jacket.

  2. 1436 feet per second with140 gr. Hornady XTP

  3. 1384 feet per second with 147 gr. Hornady XTP

  4. 1327 feet per second with 158 gr. Speer Deep Curl Hollow Points

  5. 1189 feet per second with 170 gr. Speer Deep Curl Soft Points.

  6. 976 feet per second with 200 gr. Lead Round Nose. This may go up with the right powder.


  I have shot these loads and found them to be very accurate. The only problem I've found is availability of components to make more ammunition.


 The one major issue I've been addressing with these are some military criteria... for combat, these must reach a Thornily Relative Stopping Power of 50 for an effective stop of an aggressor.

  1. The 125 gr bullets reach 48.

  2. The 140 gr. bullets reach 49.

  3. The 147 gr. bullets reach 49.

  4. The 158 gr. bullets reach 51.

  5. The 170 gr. bullets reach 49.

  6. The 200 gr, bullets reach 48.


 Now all these velocities can increase with other powders which are not available at this time.


 Keep in mind that the current military cartridge reaches 33-37 on this scale...and the 45 ACP reaches 50-54...still in reach of my cartridges when better powders become available.

 

  Patents have been applied for and accepted by the PTO.

  I have also applied for my ATF 7 license from the BATFE.

  I have a business license from the State of Virginia for the Ring Of Fire Manufacturing, LLC.

  I also have my Henrico County Business license for the Ring Of Fire Manufacturing, LLC.

  I have arrangements with BAR-STO to make my pistol barrels and gunsmith fit them for my customers.

  In addition, I have agreements with Wolff Springs for recoil rods and springs.


 The cartridge was cut down to the length of a 10mm [email protected].

 The Over All Length was reduced to @ 1.280 to accommodate more pistols, like the 38 Super+P, and the 9X23mm pistols.

 1911 style pistols can be converted if they're able to withstand the pressures of the 10mm and 9X23mm.

  The 1911 style pistols in 40 S&W, 38 Super+P, 9X23mm and 10mm can all be converted with only a barrel and recoil spring tuning.


  Now, I'm also looking to make ammunition for this, so there will be no foul-ups like there was with the 9X23...ammo wasn't available, or pistols weren't available due to the rift with Winchester...and I'm planning to also make most other hard to find ammunition as well.


  Low end ammunition will be sold under Ring Of Fire MFG.LLC with the Marksman designation.

  Mid-range ammunition will be sold with the Sharpshooter designation.

  High-end self-defense and hunting grade will be designated under the Expert badge.

 These will be images of my Marine Corps Shooting Badges.

  I will also list on the packages, brass make, powder, charge, primer, bullet, feet per second with realistic barrel lengths (not the 10" barrels most manufacturers use today), and the Thornily Relative Stopping Power of the round as well as the chart showing what power is recommended for specific game.

The cartridge and the chamber design is protected under patent application. I have both provisional and design patents applied for.

I do have some videos on youtube when I was doing some R&D. Look under Dave Elliott 357 Ring Of Fire.

There is also a Facebook page under Dave Elliott 357 Ring Of Fire.

Anyone interested in preorders, loading info, etc...send me your queries at
[email protected]

Thanks guys, for all your input.
Dave

[TunnelRat]

I had never heard of the Thornily Relative Stopping Power before. Spent just some time reading about it. Not sure I'm particularly convinced of it's usefulness. But it's interesting.

Seems the folks here played around with the equation and got some amusing results.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...curate-Helpful


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[5whiskey]

Best of luck to you Dave. Seems like you have everything line up but SAAMI testing.

[ShootistPRS]

Patented cartridges rarely become very popular. Gun and ammo makers don't want to pay the use fees. They can usually find a way to make a cartridge with similar or better characteristics cheaper than paying to use the patented round. You also have a market that is moving away from power house rounds and going toward lower recoil rounds.

I wish you luck in your adventure even if the odds are against you.

[Jim Watson]

Good luck.
And do try the SAAMI and H.P. White thing. Because Quickload is not real predictive in straightwall pistol cartridges and you really need to run it in a circular process, fudging the inputs until it "predicts" what you are actually getting.

But I would not worry about
"The one major issue I've been addressing with these are some military criteria... for combat, these must reach a Thornily Relative Stopping Power of 50 for an effective stop of an aggressor."
because the best I can google, Mr Thorniley is a hunter and has fudged his formula to evaluate hunting rifles. I find no military criteria related. It is unwise to extrapolate into regions not intended by the original formulation. Like rifle to handgun.

[Slimjim9]

I sure have to admire your sticktoitiveness on this project. I still think it is a solution in search of a problem, but I really don't mean to fire up those old threads on that, so I'll just say congratulations on coming up with the solution. Best of luck to you.

[5whiskey]

I still think it is a solution in search of a problem, but I really don't mean to fire up those old threads on that

I felt the same. However, like you, I would rather just say good luck. With the caveat that I hope that there is legit pressure testing other than quickload estimates for the sake of Dave's liability. Manufacturing patented ammo and caliber conversion kits does assume a certain risk of liability.

[JohnKSa]

The one major issue I've been addressing with these are some military criteria... for combat, these must reach a Thornily Relative Stopping Power of 50 for an effective stop of an aggressor.

What military criteria for ammunition is based on the Thornily RSP formula?

And do try the SAAMI and H.P. White thing. Because Quickload is not real predictive in straightwall pistol cartridges and you really need to run it in a circular process, fudging the inputs until it "predicts" what you are actually getting.

Good advice.

[Loosedhorse]

Good luck. And well done, following your dream.

As an SD round, the 125 gr. ballistics are (to me) marginally higher than .357 SIG (though of course clearly better than 9mm). Still, not sure that's going to matter much to most in the SD-focused crowd.

Once you leave the SD realm, you head where--woods/trail/camping gun? I see a role there. Hunting (that is, whitetail-sized game), I still think that .357 (and larger caliber) revolvers have that sewn up.

Hey, I understand focusing on the military. However, the military doesn't buy as many handguns as Joe U.S. Citizen, and it won't leave the 9mm anytime soon.

Best advice I can give you: try to get Johnny Cash's "Ring of Fire" as the song for your commercials. Burn, burn, burn!

[jmr40]

The relative stopping power calculations are basically measuring momentum. A handy number to know if you're trying to knock over bowling pins or steel plates. It has nothing to do with stopping living creatures. Penetration is what stops stuff and controlled expansion helps make it happen faster. Momentum does not consider either of those factors.

Good luck, but I can't think of any reason to convert my G20 or G29 when I can shoot

135's at 1600 fps
155's at 1475 fps
180's at 1300 fps
200's at 1250 fps.

[random guy]

With the caveat that I hope that there is legit pressure testing other than quickload estimates for the sake of Dave's liability.

Not to mention, 45,000 is really up there.

Certainly sounds interesting though, if it can realistically outperform the 9X25 Dillon.

[JohnKSa]

It won't outperform the 9x25 Dillon or the 10mm, but then, it's not intended to. It's supposed to outperform existing 9mm/.357 autopistol cartridges but without incurring the capacity handicap inherent to necked down cartridges.

It's also supposed to fit into a 10mm/1911 sized pistol which limits the COAL.

Given the stated design constraints, the competition for the .357 ROF is the 9x23 Winchester, not the 10mm. Although the ballistics data provided above suggests that the .357 ROF outperforms factory 9x23 Winchester, until pressure data is available, it won't be clear if it can do so at safe pressures.

A look at the 9x23 section of Buffalobore's website indicates that it takes around 50,000psi of pressure (which is still 5,000psi under the 9x23's SAAMI pressure limit, by the way) to get a 124gr bullet to about 1460fps in a 5" barrel 9x23 pistol. Unless the ROF has significantly different case capacity than the 9x23, it should perform very similarly in terms of pressure. That is, both cartridges should require about the same amount of pressure to get a given weight bullet to the same velocity in the same barrel length.

[random guy]

Although the ballistics data provided above suggests that the .357 ROF outperforms factory 9x23 Winchester, until pressure data is available, it won't be clear if it can do so at safe pressures.

The Quickload ballistics provided basically meet, and exceed in some cases, actual chronograph testing of 9X25 Dillon ammo. I didn't catch the barrel length that you used though.

The unavailability of brass is a problem. Surprising that somebody isn't making it. A cartridge designed around cut down 5.56 brass would not have such a problem, at least to handloaders. If popular, an industry would spring up to convert a virtually unlimited supply of brass. Probably not useful to you at this point though.

[JohnKSa]

The Quickload ballistics provided basically meet, and exceed in some cases, actual chronograph testing of 9X25 Dillon ammo.

9x25 Dillon out of a 6" bbl will drive a 125gr bullet at 1700fps, a 147gr bullet up to about 1500fps and a 180gr bullet up to about 1200fps. It exceeds .357 ROF performance which is not at all surprising given its significant case capacity advantage.

[random guy]

Of course the Dillon operates at far lower pressure. About 9000psi lower. That is why performance is theoretically very similar.

You are 7500 psi over 10mm max pressures and 10,000 over .40 S&W max. Impressive. This will require a well built gun and we can't have too many of those.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Davelliott

1911 style pistols can be converted if they're able to withstand the pressures of the 10mm and 9X23mm.

The 1911 style pistols in 40 S&W, 38 Super+P, 9X23mm and 10mm can all be converted with only a barrel and recoil spring tuning.

Pretty much any half-decent 1911 will handle 10mm. Rock Island Armory sells a 10mm model, and they still use investment cast receivers.

How will a .40 S&W 1911 be able to convert with just a barrel swap? As far as I know, for past dealings with both Caspian Arms and the old Para-Ordnance, the 1911 has three "families" of slides: One is cut for the .45 ACP, one is cut for .40 S&W and 10mm, and the third is cut for 9mm and .38 Super. So, with that in mind, why did you list the 9x23 but not the much more common 9mm 1911?

[Moon Falcon]

I guess that this went nowhere.

It would have been better if you had offered a Glock clone in .357 Ring of Fire instead of just a barrel and a stronger recoil spring.

People say that they want .357 Magnum in an autopistol with an 18-round magazine but then they can't handle the recoil just like the FBI and the 10mm Auto cartridge.

[74A95]

Originally Posted by Moon Falcon

I guess that this went nowhere.

have they shut down?

[44 AMP]

The original poster, the guy with the idea, the agreements and the patent pending has not been back to this thread in over 6 years.

If the project hasn't been abandoned, tis certainly on extended holiday.

[74A95]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

The original poster, the guy with the idea, the agreements and the patent pending has not been back to this thread in over 6 years.

If the project hasn't been abandoned, tis certainly on extended holiday.

Why would their participation on this forum be an indication of success or failure?

[MarkCO]

They sell SCCY pistols...

https://ringoffiremfg.com/

[5whiskey]

The original poster, the guy with the idea, the agreements and the patent pending has not been back to this thread in over 6 years.

If the project hasn't been abandoned, tis certainly on extended holiday.

A quick google search shows that the OP managed to get a shooting illustrated writer to essentially repeat his claims. He's started threads on the 1911 Fanatics forum in 2020 to announce the debut of his business. There's a FB page and a company website. Of note, the Shooting Illustrated article, I felt, was poorly written and did not specify whether the author actually chronographed the ammo (I don't think he did, I think he actually just took Dave Elliot's numbers and printed them).

Why would their participation on this forum be an indication of success or failure?

Fairly, it doesn't. Especially these days, traffic on this forum is not what it used to be (though I am still fond of TFL). Go to the ring of fire website and you will, indeed, see that conversion kits and ammo is being offered. You'll also see that all the new products offered are assorted SCCY pistols with random (and, IMO, somewhat gaudy) custom paint jobs. Apparently border line Saturday Night Specials with some cerakote jobs are better sellers than the ROF products.

[74A95]

Originally Posted by 5whiskey

Apparently border line Saturday Night Specials with some cerakote jobs are better sellers than the ROF products.

It sounds like you have sales figures for those items?

[5whiskey]

It sounds like you have sales figures for those items?

I don't, but I do know that if my passion for the past 3 decades was a proprietary pistol cartridge and conversion kits, along with load data for sale and all kinds of other products and services that requires specialized knowledge, that the top of the home splash page on my website wouldn't feature a giant banner of $250.00 pistols with random paint jobs that you have to scroll past to get to what I have spent 3 decades working on... unless that's what I had to do to pay the bills.

[44 AMP]

Why would their participation on this forum be an indication of success or failure?

Certainly participation in this forum has nothing to do with the commercial success or failure of his idea /products.

On the other hand, it does have everything to do with telling us about it.

He started a thread in 2017, made a fairly lengthy post telling us about his Ring of Fire round, and the progress he has made, one assumes to interest the folks here in the idea, and then has not come back, to date.

if he were successful I would think he would have come back and told us.

If his project is keeping him too busy to make a simple post on TFL, I'd say he's not successful, yet....