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Old May 8, 2018, 02:55 PM   #26
Bartholomew Roberts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adamBomb
There are situations where having a round in the chamber and no safety is going to get you killed (ie person grabs you from behind, takes gun from you, shoots you). Having a manual safety or no round in chamber could of saved your life in that situation.
So, you won’t get killed if someone grabs your gun from behind and there is no round in the chamber? That is only going to save the life of someone who can use that tiny bit of time to regain control of a gun that they couldn’t stop the person from taking. So, I don’t think that is a valid solution to a gun grab.
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Old May 8, 2018, 09:07 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts View Post
So, you won’t get killed if someone grabs your gun from behind and there is no round in the chamber? That is only going to save the life of someone who can use that tiny bit of time to regain control of a gun that they couldn’t stop the person from taking. So, I don’t think that is a valid solution to a gun grab.
While I am NOT an advocate of carrying with an empty chamber, the scenario he described HAS happened to someone I knew and the "click" DID buy him time to save his life. It is not a big enough "plus" (imho) to outweigh the "minuses" but I won't argue that it is not a plus because I know it is. Everyone here is saying how fast a situation unfolds and that is why every split second counts (don't waste time racking the slide). Using that logic makes it hard to argue that the split second you save by causing a rythm break, in a gun grab, is any less valuable.

The only time I carry with an empty chamber is if I have been doing (and plan on doing more) dry practice. Otherwise, mine is set to go.

On a lighter note - having one in the pipe makes it impossible to pull your gun, rack the slide, and make some tough guy cliche remark. Jk
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Old May 8, 2018, 09:33 PM   #28
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For me, one in the chamber and no safety. This leaves single action handguns off my carry list.
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Old May 8, 2018, 09:53 PM   #29
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Even if carrying on an empty chamber incurred no extra time penalty I don't think I could endorse it. The possibility of things that might interfere with it troubles me.

Can I be sure that my off-hand will always be available?
... will never be occupied trying to fend off an attacker?
... will never be in the death-grip of my wife, girlfriend, or heaven forbid...both???
... will never be holding my youngest in my arms?
... will never be trying to control my dog on his leash?
... will never be trying to maintain my grip on a bus careening out of control at 55mph and will blow up if it goes below that speed?
... will never have an injured hand or arm that prevents me from racking the slide?

Compared to that, what are the disadvantages to carrying with a round already chambered?
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Old May 9, 2018, 06:25 AM   #30
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That's enough for me. I made up my mind.
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Old May 9, 2018, 07:07 AM   #31
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I'm going to add the non-tactical argument to this because I considered it way too much last night as an academic point as the OP has already made a decision. Apparently I don't like to sleep anyways.

I had to click on the little firearms safety link up top because I wanted to verify I did not word this incorrectly. The first rule of gun safety:

All guns are always loaded - period!

It seems the arguments for carrying with an empty chamber revolve around the idea that a gun, particularly a carry gun that is handled fairly often, is in fact not loaded. To me such an idea, firmly placed in one's mind, could easily be the starting point for a disaster.
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Old May 9, 2018, 01:07 PM   #32
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"All guns are always loaded - period! It seems the arguments for carrying with an empty chamber revolve around the idea that a gun, particularly a carry gun that is handled fairly often, is in fact not loaded. To me such an idea, firmly placed in one's mind, could easily be the starting point for a disaster."

Valid, but the thought process goes both ways.

From a safety perspective, treating every firearm as if it were loaded is very good practice, of course, for all the usual reasons.

However, moving beyond basic safety measures and into practical use, I absolutely want to know exactly what the condition of my weapon is. The consequences for not knowing can be equally detrimental, loaded or unloaded.
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Old May 9, 2018, 01:44 PM   #33
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The simple rule in my castle is: if the gun is in the safe it is not loaded.

Otherwise, if it is not in the safe, it is loaded and ready to fire.

I keep 4 handguns out of the safe. Guess what condition they are in??
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Old May 9, 2018, 02:33 PM   #34
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The reason Israeli carry was instigated, in the first place. When the Country of Israel was first given to the Jews by England (who did not own it in the first place? They did that a lot!) as they started to obtain handguns, they were in every size and shape, a big Hodgepodge of calibres, and mecanisms.

So the safest way to carry, full magazine, empty chamber, no worries on making it ready to fire quickly and safely.

I rented a range to El Al and Consulate Officers in Toronto, for 16 years. Ending in 2003.

When they went to Glocks in 9mm, this practice stopped.

Could they have used Police Ranges for free? Of course, but having a group of Police Officers watching them run their training? Not happening.

One exercise (I have not been involved with them since 2003) so all this must have long since been changed.

Draw and fire 3 rounds at a cardboard silhouette, at 15 yards, run quickly down range, fire a round into a 4" balloon, taped underneath the target.
Bursting the balloon.

Not a group to mess with.
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Old May 9, 2018, 02:54 PM   #35
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Cops do not carry with an empty chamber. Not does the military during war of guard duty. Hunters do not hunt with an empty chamber. I do not understand the discomfort anyone would have carrying condition 1 (magazine in/round in chamber).
I don't know of any LE agency that carries with an empty chamber, but the military does more often than not. Regional differences between hunters determine mean different customs. Many do many don't There are very few professional guides that will allow a hunter to hunt with a loaded chamber until the guide tells you to chamber a round.

For personal protection it depends. Most of the time I agree there should be one in the chamber if the gun is carried in a holster that covers the trigger. But there are exceptions when an unloaded chamber is better. There are times when a gun is stored or carried with no holster and I would prefer no round in the chamber then. In fact if the gun is not strapped onto my body it takes 2 hands to remove it from a holster anyway. It would be faster to get it into action if left out of the holster without a chambered round than in a holster with a round chambered.

And it would be extremely rare for the extra 1/2 second to really matter.
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Old May 10, 2018, 07:55 PM   #36
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In my opinion, carrying a firearm without a round in the chamber is nothing but amaturistic protectionist nonsense. If you want to carry on empty.. I wont try to talk you out of it but please get some training.
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Old May 10, 2018, 09:08 PM   #37
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Quote:
but the military does more often than not.
yes and no. I would not say "more often than not." The military carries condition 4 (no rounds anywhere) more often than not. But if you're issued rounds, a great deal of the time you carry with 1 in the chamber. I believe you were supposed to stay condition 3 on large bases like Camp Fallujah last time I was in Iraq, but any time you were on guard duty or stepped foot outside the wire you had a round chambered. If you go through a gate on any military base right now, there will be armed Soldiers/Sailors/Airmen/Marines there. They will be armed, and they will have a round in their chamber.

Further, the carry on an empty chamber mantra of the military has much more to do with handing 19 year olds fully automatic weapons than it does with the actual safety level of competent people carrying with a round in the chamber. I always though it was stupid honestly. We had to hit a clearing barrel several times a day in country if we were on Camp Fallujah... the chow hall, the barber shop, and a couple of other places as I recall. Their stupid policy of requiring Joes and Lance Criminals to manipulate the weapon to clear it when they kept live rounds on their person daily was probably more dangerous than just keeping weapons condition 1 all the time.

Quote:
There are times when a gun is stored or carried with no holster and I would prefer no round in the chamber then.
I do agree with this. Absolutely no round in the chamber if the pistol is not holstered on the person in a holster covering the triggerguard.

Further, I'm not a fan of carrying any other way. I will not denigrate it, but purse or bag carry is not in my personal comfort zone.
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Last edited by 5whiskey; May 10, 2018 at 09:16 PM.
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Old May 10, 2018, 10:16 PM   #38
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Your off hand can be doing a lot more important things than racking a slide.
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Old May 11, 2018, 04:13 AM   #39
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Have you ever participated in exercises of the kind demonstrated by Dennis Tueller? An average assailant starting his attack with a contact weapon from a distance of around twenty feet can close that distance in the time it takes for a trained defender to draw and fire a handgun without racking a slide.
i have and twice my son hit me before i cleared leather. in this case i knew he was coming. perp situation you mite not. i know a few people better than i am and most of them ended in a draw. please no comment on paragraphing
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Old May 11, 2018, 04:41 AM   #40
Spats McGee
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I carry with one in the chamber. If I'm under violent attack, I may need my non-shooting hand for something other than chambering a round.
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Old May 11, 2018, 07:27 AM   #41
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Always chambered. They're designed to be carried that way.

Keyword in the word gunfight is "fight".

I recommend you take a force on force class with simunition rounds and attempt to carry in that manner.

Nothing is more eye-opening than a force on force class to dispell all these silly myths.

Knife attacks, unchambered rounds, weird carry positions, etc.
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Old May 11, 2018, 07:35 AM   #42
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Actually safer than revolvers were at the time they were introduced (or that was the perception), yet it solved the 'cocked and locked' debate. Pull and fire. Triple safety design with the simplicity of a revolver. As much as I like 1911's, I'd never carry one as a personal protection. Not because the design is unsafe, but because I've never developed muscle memory to trust my life to it. Well that, and the weight.
No, a Glock is not safer than a revolver, not a post WWII double action revolver or a Single Action revolver with a transfer bar similar to a New Model Ruger. There have been WAY more ND's with Glocks than there were with revolvers.

Military/LE veteran here with almost 4 decades of service. I carry Glocks or revolvers, same operation, point and click (boom).
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Old May 11, 2018, 07:38 AM   #43
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I carry one in the chamber, the mag topped off and I carry a BUG so that's 2 with one in the pipe. Foolish to do otherwise.

The only time I support one not in the chamber is a long gun carried in a vehicle, I carry them cruiser ready.
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Old May 11, 2018, 08:22 AM   #44
Bartholomew Roberts
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I knew and the "click" DID buy him time to save his life.
I’m sure it has happened more than once. I just don’t think it is a good or balanced solution. Weapons retention training is a better solution that doesn’t slow you down or require a two-handed draw.
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Old May 11, 2018, 09:21 AM   #45
Glenn E. Meyer
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Try running a gun with one hand. Been there when injured and in an injured shooter class which I took when I had a broken wrist and ribs. I took it anyway. Why not?

Easy to get a hand injured or tied up in a fight. So drop the low probability hypotheticals and be realistic.
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Old May 11, 2018, 10:08 AM   #46
Lohman446
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And it would be extremely rare for the extra 1/2 second to really matter
I am, probably to a fault, of the mind that one should not deploy deadly force against another human unless and until no other option is prudently available and all other reasonable options have been attempted. I'm not sure how inconsequential that half second is.
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Old May 11, 2018, 10:23 AM   #47
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I'm not sure how inconsequential that half second is.
That depends on the situation. I have been carrying a gun into harms way for almost 40 years. I have thus far been able to mitigate a quick draw to save my life, but there have been times when I had one hand occupied and needed to draw.

In the right situation it is life or death. I am unwilling to take that chance and trained and experienced to the point that it is unnecessary.

It was the right answer for the Israelis post WWII with the influx of oddball guns and an untrained populace.
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Old May 11, 2018, 10:45 AM   #48
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One simple test is to do some realistic FOF for those of us who haven't been in professions that led them into life threatening situations.

See how the unchambered gun works in various problems to be solved. Half a second is pretty long.
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Old May 11, 2018, 11:54 AM   #49
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Tueller drill aside, irrelevant in SD for the most part. Unless he has presented a weapon it does you no good at all. Your personal space is not 21 feet.

A criminal is going to close to within striking distance before he does anything at all. His body language may or may not broadcast his intent. You will need that off hand to clear your space, to establish distance. That is why it is important that you be able to draw and fire your weapon with one hand.

25 years in corrections teaches you how criminals act.
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Old May 11, 2018, 06:59 PM   #50
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Allways, when out and about, holstered? Chamber loaded, Glock 19.
Except when babysitting, our two wee ones, who climb all over us! Little boy 5 Young Lady, seven. Track pants, right pocket. Dressed to travel, Kydex holster, chamber never loaded.
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