The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old August 21, 2017, 03:59 PM   #26
Pond, James Pond
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 12, 2011
Location: Top of the Baltic stack
Posts: 5,729
Quote:
Stick to playing games on the range and leave the gun at home; otherwise explain what carrying a real gun in the real world has to do with except the very real possibility of killing someone.
I fail to see why those two activities by the same person would have to be mutually exclusive.

If you mean don't bring an IPSC mindset to a gun-fight, then sure, but if you're saying don't bring on the IPSC muscle memory-reinforced skills including but not limited to instinctive gun-handling, rapid mag changes, shooting on the move, accuracy, rapid draw and sighting in on target I'd have to question your rationale.

Don't like shooting competitively? Fine.

Assume anyone who does, doesn't have the mindset and skills needed to survive a gun-fight?
Well,... let's say it's not an assumption I'd make about anyone.
__________________
When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic.
Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.
Karma. Another word for revolver: because what goes around, comes around!
Pond, James Pond is offline  
Old August 21, 2017, 04:06 PM   #27
Lohman446
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 22, 2016
Posts: 1,677
Quote:
You can have all the "will to win" that you want but that in and of itself is not enough. You still need technical skills, whether you are talking about empty hand skills, using a knife or impact weapon or a firearm.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach Paul "Bear" Bryant
It's not the will to win that matters-everyone has that. It's the will to prepare to win that matters.
The original statement reminded me of this
Lohman446 is offline  
Old August 23, 2017, 07:29 AM   #28
GarandTd
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 15, 2016
Location: Western PA
Posts: 848
I think the more techniques you learn and and can employ in different scenarios the better. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect some or all of those techniques to improve your chances in both defensive situations and competitive ones. One must remember, though, that competition is structured and organized with rules and parameters set forth by officials. Self defense....not so much. How your mind and body reacts to those differences will ultimately decide the outcome.

I've never competitively shot before, but I think I'd like it. I've never killed or had to defend and I pray that I never have to. These are my opinions based off of life, mindset, experiences, etc...
__________________
22lr, 20 gauge, 8mm Mauser, 35 Remington, 30-06, 9mm, 380acp
GarandTd is offline  
Old August 25, 2017, 01:47 PM   #29
SIGSHR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 13, 2005
Posts: 4,134
IMHO we are always looking for THE technique, the "one size fits all/sure fire/guaranteed to work all the time/impossible to counteract", etc. Like the caliber wars, an endless debate.
Fun, but, don't expect to find THE answer.
SIGSHR is offline  
Old August 25, 2017, 07:50 PM   #30
johnwilliamson062
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2008
Posts: 9,996
F+S did not have body armor, radios to call back-up, or 20 round magazines.
Now when police or military make entry they do try, or at least train, to do it with at least a half dozen guys, flashbangs, and full auto weapons.

Hard to beat an FS III. One has been my security blanket for a long time and probably always will be.
johnwilliamson062 is offline  
Old August 26, 2017, 10:54 AM   #31
MT 73
Member
 
Join Date: August 17, 2011
Posts: 35
What is a FS 111?
MT 73 is offline  
Old August 26, 2017, 12:59 PM   #32
ShootistPRS
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 3, 2017
Posts: 1,584
I believe he is talking about a Baretta 92 FS, but I could be wrong.
ShootistPRS is offline  
Old August 27, 2017, 08:14 PM   #33
the Black Spot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 9, 2009
Location: arkansas
Posts: 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by SIGSHR View Post
IMHO we are always looking for THE technique, the "one size fits all/sure fire/guaranteed to work all the time/impossible to counteract", etc. Like the caliber wars, an endless debate.
Fun, but, don't expect to find THE answer.
We could train like Delta Force, that might do it. If we could get in lol.

I train the best i can.
the Black Spot is offline  
Old August 31, 2017, 07:23 PM   #34
ken grant
Member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2004
Posts: 59
F/S/A system

I think the FSA handgun system is one of the best for the average person who wants to defend themselves and have no desire to be highly trained or desire to practice every day , week or etc.

It is a system of BASIC self defense that once learned is retained very well and is good for anyone that is not a gun person and will not practice much.

Last edited by ken grant; August 31, 2017 at 07:32 PM.
ken grant is offline  
Old February 5, 2018, 12:32 AM   #35
Ridgerunner665
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 22, 2007
Location: Upper East Tennessee
Posts: 424
Point shooting...

You don't hear much about it these days.

I'm a nobody as far as gunfights go, never been in one.... Hope I never am.

But I came to enjoy point shooting at a very early age, its Chuck Conners fault (The Rifleman)...I first began point shooting at the ripe old age of about 8, with a Red Rider BB gun.

After a few thousand BB's a soda can at 25 feet or so didn't stand a chance against me.

A little later, at around age 12 I guess...I happened on an article in a magazine about Bob Munden... And using a 22 revolver and holster that belonged to my Granddad I eventually got pretty good at point shooting that too (not Bob Munden good by any stretch).

I still do a lot of point shooting at the range... Because its fun and sometimes I just like to show off, lol.

All that is to say... It can be learned... Its just muscle memory and some hand eye coordination.

Combat accuracy at less than 50 feet isn't really that hard. Hell, after having played around with it for going on 40 years now, head shots aren't that hard, on paper at least.

I'm not advocating not using the sights... Just saying that knowing how to get by without them in a pinch may not be a bad idea either.
Ridgerunner665 is offline  
Old February 5, 2018, 08:08 AM   #36
johnwilliamson062
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2008
Posts: 9,996
Quote:
What is a FS 111?
https://www.google.com/search?q=FS+I...w=1336&bih=593
Though I warn, if a USMC captain ever asks what the best fighting knife known to man is, just reply KA-BAR. You'd be safer spitting on the flag than claiming otherwise. Definitely don't say the KA-BAR is actually a utility knife.

To expand on my previous post, I am constantly amazed the way CC people look for training from police, military, and game players.

For instance shooting isosceles. Great if you have body armor, guys to cover you if hit, med-evac on call, etc. Without all those things if you get hit center mass you are probably dead. A through and through from the side might just be quicker and a small utility pole can provide reasonable cover from pistol rounds when sideways. Well, at this point my belly would probably stick out. There are a lot of real world cover positions that shooting from two handed is awkward. When you are alone, sometimes a bark and a flash coming out of the barrel fast can be worth more than a slightly slower hit.

I've walked some of the same streets as them in Hong Kong. There are areas in Hong Kong where at 2AM I felt as unsafe as anywhere in the world. Turn the corner and walk down a dark alley to go from a seemingly safe touristy night market to shadowy place where the rule of law clearly doesn't exist, or is at least the law is written by criminal elements. Really not much different feeling than Tepito market, but much quicker transition from a seemingly safe area. It is a very interesting city.
In the time they were in Hong Kong there were very limited number of firearms. Even so, there are few in history who have published manuals with the experience they gained through their careers.

Last edited by johnwilliamson062; February 5, 2018 at 08:33 AM.
johnwilliamson062 is offline  
Old February 10, 2018, 12:37 AM   #37
Jeff22
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 15, 2004
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Posts: 680
Fairbarin and Sykes were in Shanghai . . .

A fascinating period in history to be sure
__________________
You can only learn from experience if you pay attention!
Jeff22 is offline  
Old February 10, 2018, 07:58 PM   #38
johnwilliamson062
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2008
Posts: 9,996
In '49 the they moved the city, they just forgot to change the name. Well at least the part of Shanghai Fairbairn was dealing with.
Details... Hong Kong and Chinese organized crime was still impressive. Much different than what I have seen in West.
johnwilliamson062 is offline  
Old March 2, 2018, 05:21 AM   #39
Brit
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 29, 2005
Location: Orlando FL
Posts: 1,552
Being in a fight, with or without weapons, in order to stand any chance of coming out alive, not necessary unhurt, but surviving, one must have the ability to immediately react!

Not after thinking carefully through a scenario. Basically how to flow into attack mode. Fear can freeze you to the spot.

In my experience, he who hits first, wins, if the hit or hits are delivered with instant aggression. If you are facing more than one aggressor, you cannot engage, as in a sports combat situation, the first person you strike, that person has to be out of the fight. If the means of attack you have is a pistol, it must have sufficient rounds to allow you to fire in burst mode! The movie fight were one shot finishes the confrontation, is not normally the way it goes.

So a 15 round magazine in your carry weapon is the least you need to carry, to cover most eventualities! Your ability to conceal such a pistol, in your normal dress of the day, is a prerequisite. Being retired helps!

Living in a part of a City that running gunfights are not common also help's.
Brit is offline  
Old April 28, 2018, 12:58 PM   #40
Blue Duck
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 15, 2006
Posts: 290
I believe that Sikes and Fairbairn quite often only had an hour or two to train a recruit and they wanted a system that also helped to maintain safety. Condition 3 eliminated the reliance of safeties and the tiny safeties on the guns in question were not that friendly for fast and foolproof operation, and the sights were not very good and it was quite often dark, when a gunfight occurred.

They pinned the safeties in the fire condition, so that they were taken out of the equation. For the conditions, weapons, and time in history, I believe their system may have been about the best they could do, and the results speak for themselves.

I have shot competition off and on for 30 yrs or more. I believe it does help, but because it's still gamesmanship, I don't know, I know I get tired of some of it. I kind of liked IDPA, but all of the running and gunning, and procedural errors, and trying to memorize the course etc. The matches are getting more gamy all of the time. I kind of miss the old IPSC matches of the earily 1980's when it was more just stand on your hind legs and shoot quick, before they got all tricked out with guns and holsters that are more at home in a Star Wars movie then in a real life gunfight.

And they also they have reduced the power factor, to pop gun status, this I don't like. Back in the 80's we had to shoot real full power heavy loads to make major and I believe it should still be that way.

But all in all, if you are out there shooting and handling your guns, etc. You are improving your skills, and that's a plus, just don't confuse it with real self defense combat shooting.
Blue Duck is offline  
Old April 28, 2018, 02:12 PM   #41
4V50 Gary
Staff
 
Join Date: November 2, 1998
Location: Colorado
Posts: 20,112
I still teach point shooting in addition to aimed fire. It is good for poor lighting conditions and close quarters when there is no time/distance to use sights.

BTW, I met Rex Applegate at Trexpo. I bought his book, Kill or Get Killed, tore off the plastic and walked up to him and introduced myself. He happily signed my copy of the book.
__________________
Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. Molon Labe!
4V50 Gary is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:00 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.09862 seconds with 8 queries