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June 16, 2016, 10:16 AM | #51 | |
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Casey upheld a 24 hour waiting period because the government asserted an interest to protect. A CA 10 day waiting period fell because it served no public safety interest. What public safety interest is served by making someone wait 72 hours?
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June 16, 2016, 10:21 AM | #52 |
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There are 3 different databases used to screen for terrorists. The "TIDES" database, which has around 1.1 million people on it and is the one the Dems want to use. Then the FBI maintains it's own separate list of people it suspects of terrorist activities (the "Terrorist watchlist") which has about 800,000 people. This is what the NRA and Trump propose using. The "no-fly" list is a subset of the FBI terrorist watch list and has about 64,000 names (figures per various news reports).
So greater than 90% of the people on any of the "terrorist watchlists" can, in fact, board an aircraft and fly. |
June 16, 2016, 10:34 AM | #53 | |
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Someone that is a suspected Terrorist and is under surveillance for potential terrorist attacks and terrorist activity? "because the government asserted an interest to protect". |
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June 16, 2016, 10:56 AM | #54 | |||
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Absent adjudication, everyone on the lists is just someone. Quote:
How does it serve a safety interest to delay a transfer for 72 hours? What plausible interest would the government assert?
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June 16, 2016, 11:12 AM | #55 |
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FWIW, I found a message on my telephone answering device from 11:00 this morning, from the NRA, asking me to contact my two U.S. senators and ask them to oppose ANY new gun control laws.
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June 16, 2016, 11:22 AM | #56 | |
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To change the topic slightly, is anyone familiar enough with the Cornyn proposal to know whether the ATF can retrieve the gun if the gov't can't convince the judge to enact a block during the 72-hour period? Similar to what is supposed to happen after wrongful sales under current law.
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June 16, 2016, 11:27 AM | #57 | |
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The thought was, that someone (who didn't have a gun) would become upset about something, go out and buy a pistol, right then, and then use it to commit a crime, in the heat of anger. A waiting period (3 days, 5 in some places) gave those "angry" people time to "cool off" and supposedly recognize that their anger and desire to do harm was misplaced, so that when they did take delivery of the handgun, they wouldn't be likely to commit violence with it. And, yes, people actuallybelieved this.... LATER the argument justifying the waiting period was changed. It became "time needed for a background check".
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June 16, 2016, 11:39 AM | #58 | |
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June 16, 2016, 11:39 AM | #59 | |
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Ah, yes. The "cooling off" period.
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I know that I am old because I remember ordering a gun part this way: I obtained the order form from the back of a catalogue. I filled it out with my info. I wrote in a description of what I wanted from them. I put it and a check into an envelope with their address. I put a stamp on the envelope and took it to the PO. About a month later, I received my part. Hilarious in retrospect, but now it lives only in history.
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June 16, 2016, 11:46 AM | #60 | |
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Question is, is this 72hour delay Constitutional according to our courts and case law? |
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June 16, 2016, 11:52 AM | #61 | ||
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If the person hasn't engaged in any criminal activity, but someone had a feeling they might in the future, that isn't any kind of real reasonable suspicion, and the state doesn't need an extra 72 hours. Quote:
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June 16, 2016, 03:32 PM | #62 | |||
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I am LEO. I don't go to a judge and obtain judicial review to do physical surveillance (i.e. watching their house to see their comings and goings). I don't go to a judge to ask permission to search their trash (it is abandoned property). I don't go to a judge to ask permission to send an undercover agent to said person and attempt to acquire evidence of their crimes through conversation, or to attempt to purchase contraband (drugs, stolen property, etc.). In short, I don't ask for permission to investigate. If I went to a judge to seek permission to do these things, the court would be clogged with silly administrative hearings such as this. I do ask for permission from a judge if I plan on a search covered under the 4th amendment. Just as infringing on a 2nd amendment right should face judicial review. The FBI terror watch list is a list of names that they have active, open investigations on. The 800,000 number sounds like a lot, but keep in mind the vast majority of the names on that list are foreign nationals outside the US. Quote:
Remember, you can be guilty of providing material aid to terrorists, conspiracy to commit a terrorist act, and a host of other valid crimes even if the actual terrorist act has not been committed yet. If you make extensive plans to shoot up the court house with Mr. Aloha Snackbar, and you are designated as the guy who is going to purchase the weapon and ammo. You plan with Mr. Snackbar, you even recon your target. You then go purchase the weapon and deliver it to Mr. Snackbar... except Mr. Snackbar is an undercover FBI agent and you are now going to prison for a long time. You never shot up the courthouse, but you made an overt act to further that plan and conspiracy. There is a valid interest in trying to track down, stop, and prosecute terrorists. Too much ballyhoo is being made about secret lists. It's called criminal intelligence. Remember the Orlando shooter was on the terror watch list while he was being investigated, but was removed when the investigation was closed. It appears there is an effort to use "the list" responsibly. So long as legislation requires judicial review, you aren't barred from firearms simply because you are some arbitrary "secret" list... that probably isn't that arbitrary. Last edited by 5whiskey; June 16, 2016 at 03:49 PM. |
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June 16, 2016, 04:02 PM | #63 | ||||||||
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If a person is a terrorist, he should already be arrested, not just stopped from a purchase. In any event, if the government knows one is part of a criminal conspiracy, then it doesn't need 72 hours to acknowledge that. Quote:
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Either the state already has a reasonable basis for concluding that a person is, is about to or has committed a crime, in which case they can prosecute, or they are investigating whether the person is involved in crime. If a person is merely under investigation, he isn't an adjudicated criminal and it is inappropriate to violate his constitutional rights. Quote:
In the absence of judicial review, neither you nor I can know why an individual is on a federal list. That proposed 72 hour delay is chronologically prior to any adjudication. Quote:
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June 16, 2016, 05:52 PM | #64 |
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A no buy list isn't a bad idea till you start to think about it.
And once everyine is on the no buy list? |
June 16, 2016, 08:05 PM | #65 |
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zukiphile, you miss the point entirely. This isn't a nice clean neat world where you instantly go from not being known by law enforcement at all to law enforcement having a case ready for a trial and criminal conviction overnight. Let's say someone involved in an investigation has already discussed conducting an attack with an undercover, but law enforcement is waiting until they make an overt effort toward completing said attack. Conspiracy isn't a conspiracy when you only talk about it. You have to take an action toward committing the crime. You don't have to commit it... Just make an action toward completing it. So you wait until said person makes an overt action before arresting. In the meantime do you want them purchasing firearms.
Even different, sometimes the government has proof enough to arrest someone, however they want to identify all accomplices. If they make the arrest, an undercover may not be introduced to accomplices. Or they may flee or destroy evidence if everyone involved isn't identified/arrested at once. Should the individual still be allowed to purchase a firearm? Even if there is overwhelming proof but they haven't been arrested yet because of the investigation strategy? You also chose not to answer a specific question I proposed. Would you conduct a private sell of a firearm with someone that you knew was being investigated for suspected terrorism? As to the waiting period... I've already explained that. You don't need to obtain Judicial review to give permission to investigate. Should it hit that they are trying to purchase a firearm while being investigated, you take the evidence you have collected thus far and present it to a judge. Let the judge decide. If investigators don't meet the timeline, then the purchaser gets their firearm by default. If the judge decides there isn't probable cause to bar a purchase, then the purchaser gets their firearm. If then judge does find probable cause... Well then you are denied. I would like to see an appeals process incorporated if they go with this type of legislation. At the point they are denied a firearms purchase the cats probably out of the bag that a suspected terrorist is under investigation anyway. No secret anymore. And in case someone ends up on the list for bogus reasons, then they can defend themselves. |
June 17, 2016, 12:12 AM | #66 | ||
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https://www.aclu.org/issues/national...nce/watchlists The U.S. government maintains a massive watchlist system that risks stigmatizing hundreds of thousands of people—including U.S. citizens—as terrorism suspects based on vague, overbroad, and often secret standards and evidence.https://www.aclu.org/us-government-w...g-consequences The result is that innocent people can languish on the watchlists indefinitely, without real recourse. Quote:
But once you take that list and use it to deny a person's rights, THEN there needs to be due process. Denying people the ability to buy guns because they're on a watchlist is nothing more than the newest creative answer to the question: "How can we restrict the ability of people to buy guns without having to prove them guilty of anything?"
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June 17, 2016, 06:32 AM | #67 | ||||||
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Civil rights aren't about what you want. They are about rights people hold against the government. Prosecutors face choices every day. If someone is so dangerous that he shouldn't be walking around exercising those rights, the state can sit back and watch, or prosecute. His choice. That he doesn't like a choice doesn't create a grey area. Quote:
All of those are his choices. Quote:
I don't mind answering your question though. What I would do would depend on what I know about the person. I've known americans who actively supported terrorist activities, and my personal contempt for that sort of thing isn't something I would express in mixed company. I wouldn't sell those people a gun, an aspirin, or anything the the one bullet to do the right thing. However, I am not the government, and a "suspected terrorist" should be simply a citizen with all the rights of citizenship until a court determines otherwise. Quote:
Are you asserting that individuals are out in the terrorist watch list and only then investigated when they try to buy a gun? That's not rhetorical. Or are you asserting that people are already investigated before they are placed on the list? In that event, the state doesn't need another 72 hours. Quote:
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June 17, 2016, 07:06 AM | #68 | |||
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In reference to the bold part, your right has not been curtailed until you are actually barred that right. The government could have probable cause to keep you from purchasing a firearm for 6 months, and they would exercise that ability, but you personally have not had that right abridged until you actually attempt to make a purchase and are denied. Quote:
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Counter-Terrorism is Chess, not Checkers. There is a lot of strategy involved and there are compelling government interests in doing certain things. I am all for 2A rights, but we don't need to scream like banshees if there is a legitimate LIMITED IN SCOPE proposal that could help keep terrorists from purchasing weapons legally. So long as it does not infringe on the right of your average citizen, or if a mistake is made that infringement is short in scope (72 hours). In the end, you and I are clearly not going to see eye to eye. That's fine, though. That's the beauty of America. We can express our beliefs and opinions even when others don't agree with them. You have been very respectful, despite disagreeing. I appreciate that |
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June 17, 2016, 07:10 AM | #69 |
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There is a major difference between an officer watching you in public where you have no expectation of privacy and being on a list that restricts the right to purchase a firearm or travel. This difference is, IMO, fairly important to the conversation.
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June 17, 2016, 07:16 AM | #70 |
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Lohman you are correct. "The List" itself doesn't bar you from purchasing a firearm, or it shouldn't. Actually, it currently doesn't. If the list itself infringed on 2A rights, then I would not support any "no fly, no buy" legislation. It's purpose is to share with other agencies the fact that someone is being investigated for terrorism. Any legislation I would support would not restrict your 2A rights simply for being on the list. A Judge would have to rule that you can't, and there would be due process via a method to appeal.
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June 17, 2016, 08:32 AM | #71 | ||||||
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How that 72 hour delay reasonably relates to a legitimate governmental interest is what you've not articulated. Quote:
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If X is a known stinker, and I am looking at his friends Y and Z as potentially prosecutable stinkers as well, but I don't under any circumstances want X to buy a firearm from a federally licensed dealer, it doesn't take 72 hours to know that. If X is known stinker, and it really doesn't matter whether he buys a rifle because he just bought 11 pressure cookers on Amazon, then the state isn't going to use the 72 hour delay anyway. That's the problem with the waiting period. It doesn't relate to anything useful. Quote:
That's not a good standard. Many extra-constitutional government acts could deny a terrorist a weapon. That isn't a reasonable excuse for such an act. Quote:
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June 17, 2016, 09:48 AM | #72 | ||
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Last edited by 5whiskey; June 17, 2016 at 09:54 AM. |
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June 17, 2016, 12:41 PM | #73 | ||
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This might be a good point to look at the actual proposals (Senate Amendments 4720 and 4749)
Feinstein's proposal - Senate Amendment 4720 Quote:
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June 17, 2016, 02:07 PM | #74 |
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great post Logic man--it is the crux of the issue--due process
and their stance that you have to prove your innocence--really? |
June 17, 2016, 03:49 PM | #75 | |
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