Attorney: Shot justified - Page 2

skydiver3346 · April 19, 2009, 10:38 PM

Seems like no one is addressing Grutel's father? He obviously is an idiot for not taking into account that his son had a gun and actually fired two shots. Grutel warns him numerous times and this guy still enters the house and attacks Grutel's mother. Anyone who is that foolish and has a don't give a crap attitude, (after being warned and shots fired) probably is a serious threat to anyone who gets in his way. If someone attacks my mother (even his father or stepfather, as he has a different name) I can promise you that something bad is going to happen to them for sure. That is a promise!

Michael Anthony · April 20, 2009, 07:21 AM

Antipitas, I suppose there was a communication breakdown. I had to reread a few times to understand how a post that began with "You are correct" could be rebutted.

I was under the impression that your stance was similar to mine. I thought we both believed that the original post did not contain enough facts or information for anyone to call the shot justified.

My hypothetical Holmes Version was an example of how filling in the blanks with a small number of facts can lead to a very different story. There is no link to the information because it does not exist. It was directed to the posters who were inserting "bashing", "trying to kill" and other tidbits that were not from the article (i.e. other information that does not exist).

It must be my poor communication skills. I mean after all, immediately after taking the stance that the article did not explain how the shoot was justified, it was stated that I would have shot in the same situation.

I was only hoping to get the posters of the more popular "You killed someone, good job!" opinion to explain how the article led them to that conclusion. I should just go back to lurking.

Al Norris · April 20, 2009, 07:35 AM

Communications Problem? On teh interwebz?

Nah, can't happen!

(Now I'll have to re-read the thread...)

Edit: fixed wording...

Michael Anthony · April 20, 2009, 07:37 AM

Antipitas... it's teh interwebz... teh

Skydiver, the article never mentions any warnings. You are filling in the blanks. It just mentions shots. It says "Grutel fired two shots from his handgun into the air in an attempt to keep Holmes from following her into her apartment." What listener would be fluent enough in gunshot report to know that these gunshots mean "Don't go in the apartment." and not "I'm trying to kill you." "Happy New Year!" or "Don't worry I'm just doing some urban duck hunting."

The article also doesn't say he "attacked" her. That's more blank-filling. It says Grutel entered to see him restraining her. In fact when I see someone restraining someone else, the first thing I try to determine is why... before I try to get them to let go.

The article does not state any facts that justify this shooting. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the facts don't exist. I'm saying the article doesn't contain them.

skydiver3346 · April 20, 2009, 10:07 AM

You make good points. But you have to assume that there had to be some kind of dialogue going on between them in the yard when shots were fired. Also, I'm sure he just didn't shoot his gun in the air for no reason and never uttered a word first??
Think about it, Grutel walks into the home after firing the shots and finds his Mother being restrained and grappling with his Dad. etc. Probably more words exchanged and he then shot the guy. You would have to be there to really know all of what transpired. However, to me it is justified if someone is attacking your Mom. Obviously something serious was going on for him to shoot the guy. You never know if he could have had a gun or knife on him and could have stabbed his Mom. etc. Things like that happen all the time and domestic quarrels are considered by the police to be the most dangerous calls to respond to......

Michael Anthony · April 20, 2009, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Also, I'm sure he just didn't shoot his gun in the air for no reason and never uttered a word first??

I would hope not, but you would be surprised at what goes on in households. My only point is the article makes no mention of it.

Quote:

However, to me it is justified if someone is attacking your Mom.

I partially agree. It depends on nature and level of the attack. Walking into a room to see one party restraining another, and no other information, only leads me to think "I don't know what is going on."

Quote:

Obviously something serious was going on for him to shoot the guy.

I sincerely hope in this case that is so.

Ongoingviolence · January 14, 2015, 09:14 AM

I know this is rather late. I didn't know about this website, but to end everyone's questions and concerns. This shooting happened late afternoon and the person everyone considers the victim (holmes) had showed up at 7am intoxicated at mrs grutel's residence (which was not the address where the shooting happen) and proceeded to harass and threaten her. She did call the police that morning cause he was trying to fight her daughters boyfriend. When the police showed up they ID'd him and left. She then left her house with her kids and proceed to go to her daughters apartment (where the shooting eventually happen later) Mr holmes continued to call her on the phone and threaten her, he also had other people (friends of his) call her and was doing the same thing. Her son was informed of this by her other kids that this was going on and when she pulled up to her daughters apartment holmes was standing across the street yelling at her. He then proceeded to approach the apartment building and asked mrs Grutel to leave with him and when she said no he charged her and she ran in the apartment to get away. He then forced his way into the apartment and was chasing mrs Grutel. He then tackled her and that's when her son shot at the wall. Holmes then stood up and started charging her son and was shot. No one wanted this to happen. He was asked numerous times to leave and wouldn't and yes this was his father that he shot but he also witnessed years of violence that this man did to his mother and was fed up.

**Spats McGee** · January 14, 2015, 09:47 AM

Welcome to TFL, OGV. While we appreciate your input, this thread is about 5 years, unless there's some new, documented information, we're going to let sleeping threads lie.

April 19, 2009, 10:38 PM	#26
skydiver3346 Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 2007 Location: Florida Posts: 1,222	My take on this situation: Seems like no one is addressing Grutel's father? He obviously is an idiot for not taking into account that his son had a gun and actually fired two shots. Grutel warns him numerous times and this guy still enters the house and attacks Grutel's mother. Anyone who is that foolish and has a don't give a crap attitude, (after being warned and shots fired) probably is a serious threat to anyone who gets in his way. If someone attacks my mother (even his father or stepfather, as he has a different name) I can promise you that something bad is going to happen to them for sure. That is a promise!

April 20, 2009, 10:07 AM	#30
skydiver3346 Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 2007 Location: Florida Posts: 1,222	Hi Michael Anthony: You make good points. But you have to assume that there had to be some kind of dialogue going on between them in the yard when shots were fired. Also, I'm sure he just didn't shoot his gun in the air for no reason and never uttered a word first?? Think about it, Grutel walks into the home after firing the shots and finds his Mother being restrained and grappling with his Dad. etc. Probably more words exchanged and he then shot the guy. You would have to be there to really know all of what transpired. However, to me it is justified if someone is attacking your Mom. Obviously something serious was going on for him to shoot the guy. You never know if he could have had a gun or knife on him and could have stabbed his Mom. etc. Things like that happen all the time and domestic quarrels are considered by the police to be the most dangerous calls to respond to......

January 14, 2015, 09:14 AM	#32
Ongoingviolence Junior Member Join Date: January 13, 2015 Posts: 1	Shooting justified I know this is rather late. I didn't know about this website, but to end everyone's questions and concerns. This shooting happened late afternoon and the person everyone considers the victim (holmes) had showed up at 7am intoxicated at mrs grutel's residence (which was not the address where the shooting happen) and proceeded to harass and threaten her. She did call the police that morning cause he was trying to fight her daughters boyfriend. When the police showed up they ID'd him and left. She then left her house with her kids and proceed to go to her daughters apartment (where the shooting eventually happen later) Mr holmes continued to call her on the phone and threaten her, he also had other people (friends of his) call her and was doing the same thing. Her son was informed of this by her other kids that this was going on and when she pulled up to her daughters apartment holmes was standing across the street yelling at her. He then proceeded to approach the apartment building and asked mrs Grutel to leave with him and when she said no he charged her and she ran in the apartment to get away. He then forced his way into the apartment and was chasing mrs Grutel. He then tackled her and that's when her son shot at the wall. Holmes then stood up and started charging her son and was shot. No one wanted this to happen. He was asked numerous times to leave and wouldn't and yes this was his father that he shot but he also witnessed years of violence that this man did to his mother and was fed up.

January 14, 2015, 09:47 AM	#33
Spats McGee Staff Join Date: July 28, 2010 Location: Arkansas Posts: 8,821	Welcome to TFL, OGV. While we appreciate your input, this thread is about 5 years, unless there's some new, documented information, we're going to let sleeping threads lie. __________________ I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. If you need some honest-to-goodness legal advice, go buy some.

April 20, 2009, 07:21 AM	#27
Michael Anthony Member Join Date: April 28, 2007 Posts: 83	Antipitas, I suppose there was a communication breakdown. I had to reread a few times to understand how a post that began with "You are correct" could be rebutted. I was under the impression that your stance was similar to mine. I thought we both believed that the original post did not contain enough facts or information for anyone to call the shot justified. My hypothetical Holmes Version was an example of how filling in the blanks with a small number of facts can lead to a very different story. There is no link to the information because it does not exist. It was directed to the posters who were inserting "bashing", "trying to kill" and other tidbits that were not from the article (i.e. other information that does not exist). It must be my poor communication skills. I mean after all, immediately after taking the stance that the article did not explain how the shoot was justified, it was stated that I would have shot in the same situation. I was only hoping to get the posters of the more popular "You killed someone, good job!" opinion to explain how the article led them to that conclusion. I should just go back to lurking.

April 20, 2009, 07:35 AM	#28
Al Norris Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 29, 2000 Location: Rupert, Idaho Posts: 9,660	Communications Problem? On teh interwebz? Nah, can't happen! (Now I'll have to re-read the thread...) Edit: fixed wording...

April 20, 2009, 07:37 AM	#29
Michael Anthony Member Join Date: April 28, 2007 Posts: 83	Antipitas... it's teh interwebz... teh Skydiver, the article never mentions any warnings. You are filling in the blanks. It just mentions shots. It says "Grutel fired two shots from his handgun into the air in an attempt to keep Holmes from following her into her apartment." What listener would be fluent enough in gunshot report to know that these gunshots mean "Don't go in the apartment." and not "I'm trying to kill you." "Happy New Year!" or "Don't worry I'm just doing some urban duck hunting." The article also doesn't say he "attacked" her. That's more blank-filling. It says Grutel entered to see him restraining her. In fact when I see someone restraining someone else, the first thing I try to determine is why... before I try to get them to let go. The article does not state any facts that justify this shooting. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the facts don't exist. I'm saying the article doesn't contain them.