Interesting 870 Information...

ReserveCop · February 20, 2001, 12:25 AM

I was recently at a large LE convention.

Remington had a display there.

I spoke to their rep, and asked him some questions about the 870 HD and 870 Police.

He told me the 870 Police does NOT have the locking safety, and that the 870 Police has more "heavy duty" parts and goes through more "extensive" testing than the 870 HD.

I hope this helps.

Thanks.

DML · February 20, 2001, 04:11 AM

It is true that the 870P does not have the pc safety. Remington packs a separate trigger lock in the box. The only parts that are "heavy duty" are some of the springs. The trigger group is still aluminum alloy. I defy anyone to show me any other major part that is not the same as the Express. Yeah, I know that the magazine tube on the Express has dimples, but that can be fixed. The forend on the Express is a sporting type, but that can be fixed also.

As I have said before, there is a lot of BS put out by Remington and others about the virtues of the 870P vs. the 870 Express. Most of it is a sales pitch. Is the 870P worth the extra money? Maybe, but that's up to you.

Dave McC · February 20, 2001, 06:38 AM

Sorry if I'm getting repetitious, but...

870s last so darn long that the idea of heavy duty, extra cost parts kinda loses its attraction. Maybe the beancounters running Remington figure they can market a cheaper and flimsier version, and have folks pay extra to get what they used to get as part of the basic package. I don't see that happening, too many used 870s out there and too many companies from Beijing to Brownsville making pump guns.

What bothers me most is a company philosophy of bottomlining, whether it's shotguns, cars or pacemakers. When we depend on something to keep us alive, the bottom line is not our primary concern.

It's nothing new, the very design of the 870 was to make as reliable, smooth, and effective a pump gun as the Model 12 w/o its expensive machining and higher price. Now, the philosophy has been carried to its business end,and the US public is the worse for it.

I will buy more shotguns and rifles,someday. As it stands right now, NONE of them will be new Remingtons for the PC abd bottomline choices they've made, and the prostitution of their products and selling of their good name for a mess of pottage.

Rant mode off....

Intel6 · February 20, 2001, 10:24 AM

Sounds like something you would say when you want to charge more $ for a special "police" version that is not much different than the regular version.

tyro · February 20, 2001, 11:13 AM

....."I defy anyone to show me any other major part that is not the same as the Express."..... -DML

For one thing, I can tell you for sure, my 870 Police Magnum has a much heavier barrel than does my 870 Express. Also, the magazine spring follower is very, very much more substantial in the PM than in the Express. And I do not believe these are the only differences in terms of "heavy-duty" features in the Police Magnum compared to the Express; they are just the most obvious...

DML · February 20, 2001, 10:52 PM

I don't want to get into a fruitless discussion over this,
but I have in front of me right this moment a new Police Magnum barrel and a new Express barrel. The only difference
between the two is the external finish and the new Express barrel doesn't have the spring detent. The other parts are minor.

If you want to nitpick, go right ahead. Enjoy yourself. I won't argue with you, but I work with these shotguns on a daily basis. In fact, that's how I make my living. Other then the trigger group, the only parts are the bolt, the carrier and the fore end tube assy. If put a bunch of these parts in a box you would never be able to tell the difference between one that came from an Express or an 870P.

The only thing "heavy duty" about the 870P besides the springs is the marketing.

tyro · February 21, 2001, 06:16 AM

DML,

I stand corrected, and my apologies. I'm still living up to my nom de cyber (without really trying). I was told by the dealer who sold me the PM that the barrel was heavier than in the Express; I was camparing the 12 gauge PM with my 20 gauge Youth Express, and doing so by memory because the PM is several states away at present being modified by George Stringer; and the differences between the spring followers in the two guns had made quite an impression on me, but I didn't realize that the difference in gauge might account for that.......

DML · February 22, 2001, 01:46 AM

No need for apologies.

The 870P is a nicer finished gun then the Express. That's why it costs more.(about $100) Whether it's worth that much is up to the person paying for it. If you like polished blue instead of parkerizing, the blued Police Magnum is almost as nice as the Wingmaster.

M1911 · February 22, 2001, 08:52 AM

Any folks here have an opinion about the mods these folks are doing to 870s, other than the cost (!):

http://64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000038.html

Never having shot an 870 by Vang or Scattergun, I don't really know how to evaluate whether these folks are mostly adding snake oil...

M1911

Dave McC · February 22, 2001, 11:26 AM

1911, all of that stuff is worthy and good, as near as I can tell.

However, a stock 870 with zero mods is oneheckuva "Serious" shotgun. Add a few owner installed things like a mag extension, sling studs, and a few smithed things like a clean,4lb trigger, lengthened forcing cone,and a custom choke pkg, and you'll have close to an optimum "Serious" shotgun for a lot less than what ther're gonna charge.

My guess is, if one buys a used 870 of appropriate bbl length, and adds on the basics and smithing above, it'll run less than $400. The difference could be spent on getting lessons from Mr Awerback,Randy Cain, Suarez, et al.

Here's the short list of what I've done on my HD and deer 870s. the latter doubling as backup HD out of season.

Peep sight(And ramped front sight).

Shortened bbl.

Mag extension.

Clean trigger

Flextab conversion.

Sling studs& sling.

Lengthened forcing cone.

Starting with an 870 I already had, a ballpark figure on mods and addons would be less than $200.

I'm sure the Mad Dog version is a fine weapon, like the Vang and ST versions. What I don't see is a NEED to spend all that money.

However, it's still a free country (Barely). If that is what makes your clock chime, enjoy!!

M1911 · February 22, 2001, 12:40 PM

Dave:

Don't worry, I'm not currently counting my pennies for one...

At least, not unless my company' stock suddenly turns around in a major way...

M1911

cuerno de chivo · February 22, 2001, 06:53 PM

i inquired on a nib police magnum offered for sale by gunfinder.net on auction arms. he told me that it had the keylock safety. ???

Romulus · February 22, 2001, 08:44 PM

I just bid and got one of those on auctionarms, cuerno, $325 seemed like a good deal. I guess I succumbed to Remington's marketing blitz...

DML · February 22, 2001, 09:58 PM

Cuerno:

The new Police Magnums come with one of those clam shell type trigger locks. It is not the PC safety that is on the Express.

cuerno de chivo · February 23, 2001, 04:33 PM

too bad gunfinder.net supplied me with wrong information, i would have bid on the shotgun. do rem police rifles come equipped with the new 700's "PC" safety?

DML · February 24, 2001, 01:37 AM

None of the guns marketed for police use have the pc safety.
Remington supplies a separate clamshell type trigger lock with them. I have a bucket full of them. :-)

February 20, 2001, 12:25 AM	#1
ReserveCop Senior Member Join Date: February 4, 2001 Posts: 364	I was recently at a large LE convention. Remington had a display there. I spoke to their rep, and asked him some questions about the 870 HD and 870 Police. He told me the 870 Police does NOT have the locking safety, and that the 870 Police has more "heavy duty" parts and goes through more "extensive" testing than the 870 HD. I hope this helps. Thanks.

February 20, 2001, 04:11 AM	#2
DML Senior Member Join Date: November 24, 2000 Location: Aridzona Posts: 257	It is true that the 870P does not have the pc safety. Remington packs a separate trigger lock in the box. The only parts that are "heavy duty" are some of the springs. The trigger group is still aluminum alloy. I defy anyone to show me any other major part that is not the same as the Express. Yeah, I know that the magazine tube on the Express has dimples, but that can be fixed. The forend on the Express is a sporting type, but that can be fixed also. As I have said before, there is a lot of BS put out by Remington and others about the virtues of the 870P vs. the 870 Express. Most of it is a sales pitch. Is the 870P worth the extra money? Maybe, but that's up to you.

February 20, 2001, 06:38 AM	#3
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Sorry if I'm getting repetitious, but... 870s last so darn long that the idea of heavy duty, extra cost parts kinda loses its attraction. Maybe the beancounters running Remington figure they can market a cheaper and flimsier version, and have folks pay extra to get what they used to get as part of the basic package. I don't see that happening, too many used 870s out there and too many companies from Beijing to Brownsville making pump guns. What bothers me most is a company philosophy of bottomlining, whether it's shotguns, cars or pacemakers. When we depend on something to keep us alive, the bottom line is not our primary concern. It's nothing new, the very design of the 870 was to make as reliable, smooth, and effective a pump gun as the Model 12 w/o its expensive machining and higher price. Now, the philosophy has been carried to its business end,and the US public is the worse for it. I will buy more shotguns and rifles,someday. As it stands right now, NONE of them will be new Remingtons for the PC abd bottomline choices they've made, and the prostitution of their products and selling of their good name for a mess of pottage. Rant mode off....

February 20, 2001, 10:24 AM	#4
Intel6 Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 2000 Posts: 425	Sounds like something you would say when you want to charge more $ for a special "police" version that is not much different than the regular version.

February 20, 2001, 11:13 AM	#5
tyro Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2000 Posts: 404	....."I defy anyone to show me any other major part that is not the same as the Express."..... -DML For one thing, I can tell you for sure, my 870 Police Magnum has a much heavier barrel than does my 870 Express. Also, the magazine spring follower is very, very much more substantial in the PM than in the Express. And I do not believe these are the only differences in terms of "heavy-duty" features in the Police Magnum compared to the Express; they are just the most obvious...

February 20, 2001, 10:52 PM	#6
DML Senior Member Join Date: November 24, 2000 Location: Aridzona Posts: 257	I don't want to get into a fruitless discussion over this, but I have in front of me right this moment a new Police Magnum barrel and a new Express barrel. The only difference between the two is the external finish and the new Express barrel doesn't have the spring detent. The other parts are minor. If you want to nitpick, go right ahead. Enjoy yourself. I won't argue with you, but I work with these shotguns on a daily basis. In fact, that's how I make my living. Other then the trigger group, the only parts are the bolt, the carrier and the fore end tube assy. If put a bunch of these parts in a box you would never be able to tell the difference between one that came from an Express or an 870P. The only thing "heavy duty" about the 870P besides the springs is the marketing.

February 21, 2001, 06:16 AM	#7
tyro Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2000 Posts: 404	DML, I stand corrected, and my apologies. I'm still living up to my nom de cyber (without really trying). I was told by the dealer who sold me the PM that the barrel was heavier than in the Express; I was camparing the 12 gauge PM with my 20 gauge Youth Express, and doing so by memory because the PM is several states away at present being modified by George Stringer; and the differences between the spring followers in the two guns had made quite an impression on me, but I didn't realize that the difference in gauge might account for that.......

February 22, 2001, 01:46 AM	#8
DML Senior Member Join Date: November 24, 2000 Location: Aridzona Posts: 257	No need for apologies. The 870P is a nicer finished gun then the Express. That's why it costs more.(about $100) Whether it's worth that much is up to the person paying for it. If you like polished blue instead of parkerizing, the blued Police Magnum is almost as nice as the Wingmaster.

February 22, 2001, 08:52 AM	#9
M1911 Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 2000 Posts: 4,055	Any folks here have an opinion about the mods these folks are doing to 870s, other than the cost (!): http://64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000038.html Never having shot an 870 by Vang or Scattergun, I don't really know how to evaluate whether these folks are mostly adding snake oil... M1911

February 22, 2001, 11:26 AM	#10
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	1911, all of that stuff is worthy and good, as near as I can tell. However, a stock 870 with zero mods is oneheckuva "Serious" shotgun. Add a few owner installed things like a mag extension, sling studs, and a few smithed things like a clean,4lb trigger, lengthened forcing cone,and a custom choke pkg, and you'll have close to an optimum "Serious" shotgun for a lot less than what ther're gonna charge. My guess is, if one buys a used 870 of appropriate bbl length, and adds on the basics and smithing above, it'll run less than $400. The difference could be spent on getting lessons from Mr Awerback,Randy Cain, Suarez, et al. Here's the short list of what I've done on my HD and deer 870s. the latter doubling as backup HD out of season. Peep sight(And ramped front sight). Shortened bbl. Mag extension. Clean trigger Flextab conversion. Sling studs& sling. Lengthened forcing cone. Starting with an 870 I already had, a ballpark figure on mods and addons would be less than $200. I'm sure the Mad Dog version is a fine weapon, like the Vang and ST versions. What I don't see is a NEED to spend all that money. However, it's still a free country (Barely). If that is what makes your clock chime, enjoy!!

February 22, 2001, 12:40 PM	#11
M1911 Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 2000 Posts: 4,055	Dave: Don't worry, I'm not currently counting my pennies for one... At least, not unless my company' stock suddenly turns around in a major way... M1911

February 22, 2001, 06:53 PM	#12
cuerno de chivo Junior member Join Date: July 6, 2000 Posts: 919	i inquired on a nib police magnum offered for sale by gunfinder.net on auction arms. he told me that it had the keylock safety. ???

February 22, 2001, 08:44 PM	#13
Romulus Senior Member Join Date: January 18, 2001 Location: Kettle Moraine country Posts: 897	I just bid and got one of those on auctionarms, cuerno, $325 seemed like a good deal. I guess I succumbed to Remington's marketing blitz...

February 22, 2001, 09:58 PM	#14
DML Senior Member Join Date: November 24, 2000 Location: Aridzona Posts: 257	Cuerno: The new Police Magnums come with one of those clam shell type trigger locks. It is not the PC safety that is on the Express.

February 23, 2001, 04:33 PM	#15
cuerno de chivo Junior member Join Date: July 6, 2000 Posts: 919	too bad gunfinder.net supplied me with wrong information, i would have bid on the shotgun. do rem police rifles come equipped with the new 700's "PC" safety?

February 24, 2001, 01:37 AM	#16
DML Senior Member Join Date: November 24, 2000 Location: Aridzona Posts: 257	None of the guns marketed for police use have the pc safety. Remington supplies a separate clamshell type trigger lock with them. I have a bucket full of them. :-)