.308 battle rifle purchase opinion

[Bigboy79]

Hi, I’m currently looking into buying a semi auto .308 rifle. I’ve narrowed my list down to a DSA voyager with a 21”, a standard Springfield M1A, and a CMMG MK3 ar-10. The DSA is the cheapest of the three and from what I’ve heard and seen it seems to be a pretty very reliable and durable rifle while the M1A and ar10 seem to be more accurate but less reliable. If anyone has any experience with any of these rifles and can give me some opinions I would really appreciate it.

[navajo]

M 14 type: every one I had issued functioned without fail. Current SAI, of several that I owned not one failure, surplus, factory, hand rolled, not one malfunction. Oopps, for got one dead primer.
AR 10: on number 6 and last. Age. One magazine, problem, one garage assembled. That one took a little time to figure. Changed 3 parts and cleaned the gas block, never hiccupped again.
All Armalite. Can't comment on the others.

[Charlie98]

The M1a isn't any more or less reliable... but it does require maintenance. The AR platform is more versatile, if adding stuff to the basic rifle interests you, although the aftermarket for the M1a is growing.

I have a Springfield Socom16... it is dead nuts reliable.

[ttarp]

If you want a rifle with good iron sights or competition requiring irons get the M14
If you plan to use a scope exclusively get an AR10
If you want a tough .308 to toss around and not worry about dinging up get an FAL
If you want a tough accurate cheap .308 with good irons and horrible ergo's get a PTR91
Thats my opinion anyway

[rwilson452]

The only problem I have ever had with my M1A was mag issues. I found the cure. I only use Checkmate mags.

[kenny53]

Never a problem with my M1A Standard. Shoots everything, brass and steel. Scope mount (Bassett) for it was a little pricey but worth every penny.

[Fox84]

If accuracy is a factor, move Fal down the list. My M1A and DPMS lr308 have been just as reliable as my DSA Voyager and half the size 100yd groups.

[TracerTesterman]

My 21" DSA Voyager SA58 gets 2" groups with Iron sights. For a battle rifle, where 4 MOA is the acceptable 'norm', I'm very pleased. It's not a bolt gun, so you can't expect that sort of accuracy and be upset when you don't get it.

After having read and researched more, even though I got a good DSA FAL, they have a lot of quality issues these days and I wouldn't buy one from them again. The company has gone downhill in the past ten years. They focus on their gun craft beer while having a consistent issue of manufacturing receivers that magazines won't freaking lock into. Check the FalFiles for more info, Mark Graham (Gunplumber) tears them apart constantly with proof of their own shoddy quality. I would buy a used built one off the FalFiles market area, otherwise it's a crap shoot.

My vote goes to M1A.

Even though mine is nice and accurate, I have small personal issues with it. First, the stock beats my face up through my cheekweld. Apparently a small number of us with some sort of odd face or something have this issue. Second, I hate the front sight. I have to REALLY concentrate on it. And there is very little for aftermarket support, the FAL's hayday was ten years ago when surplus magazines could be found for a couple bucks. Now it's kind of an oddity that has fallen from favor once the parts kits dried up.

[agtman]

Hi, I’m currently looking into buying a semi auto .308 rifle. I’ve narrowed my list down to a DSA voyager with a 21”, a standard Springfield M1A, and a CMMG MK3 ar-10. * * *

Having two SAI M1As and a 7.62/.308 AR, I'd suggest widening your options a bit and maybe consider a CMP M1 Garand "Special" in .308. Everyone should own *one* M1.

CMP .308 Specials are built with an in-spec USGI receiver and USGI internal parts, a 308 Criterion barrel, and then are stocked in new Dupage or Boyd's wood. Only some of the stock metal may be commercial. Check CMP's website for current pricing and availability. The Specials are as *new* a Garand as you'll find since Springfield Armory (the real one) ended production of the M1 in the mid-1950s.

They run and fire off the same 8-rd en bloc clips as the traditional 30.06 M1, but are chambered for the less pricey .308 - either in commercial ball ammo form or 7.62 mil-surplus fodder. Also, sourcing 7.62 mil-surplus these days is easier and less expensive than finding mil-surplus '06. A while back, I scored a 500+rd case of mid-'80s vintage Maylasian 7.62 for under $200. My .308 M1 shoots it pretty well.

Obligatory pic attached ...

[TracerTesterman]

^That's really a great point.

I would actually prioritize getting one, even if it's just the 30-06 model. I think Field Grade's are like $630 and Service Grades are $730. And the surplus Garands have really dried up to a trickle now so you should get one while you can.

But a .308 would be very nice. There is a bunch of South Korean .308 out there that can be had for .39/round and is reloadable. And some Malaysian that is around .37/round and not reloadable.

I LOVE my M1Garand. It's my favorite thing to shoot. (And part of the reason I kick myself for not going with an M1A... I just HAD to try something different...)

Oh snap, I just looked and saw they sold out of the .308's TODAY.

[Charlie98]

I think if you are going to run an M1, it needs to be in .30-06... just because. Something about shoving that clip of good looking .30-06 cartridges down in that action and smacking that op rod shut...

Once you get a stash of .30-06 brass, reloading them is almost the same, cost-wise, as .308.

[44 AMP]

Once you get a stash of .30-06 brass, reloading them is almost the same, cost-wise, as .308.

Once you get a stash of brass, the cost is exactly the same, except for the powder. Generally speaking, each .30-06 round uses about 10% more powder than each .308 round. Bullets and primers are the exactly the same.

I've had an M1A, and FAL, an HK 91, and have experience with three different "AR-10" pattern rifles, from about a decade ago.

I still HAVE the M1A.

I don't compete in matches, and I'm now waaay past the era where shooting and doing the run dodge and jump is even possible, let alone fun.

I will admit a personal bias, my class through the USAOC&S at Aberdeen Proving Grounds was the last class trained on the M14, and the rifle just fits me well.

Think about what you want the rifle FOR, and the different features each one has, the pros, and cons. And count the price as the least important factor.

Because, after all, how many of them are you going to buy?

Get the one you like best, even if something else is cheaper, after all, you will get more money, right?

[smee78]

I will agree with 44AMP, it depends on what you want to do with the gun? If your just looking for a 308 shooter then I would go with an AR. There are a lot of options you can do including swapping uppers to other calibers. If you want a good old wood and blue steel rifle then its hard to beat a M1A. I have most of the rifles listed here or a variant of them and each has its own querk. How many rounds are you looking to put through the rifle a year and again what are you going to use it for?

[Phoenix54c]

Hi BigBoy,

I wasn't really informed when I bought my first M1A, so I hope I can help you make a more thoughtful decision.

The M1A is:
- Very accurate (with some tuning and upgrades)
- Available in a wide range of barrel lengths
- Accepts a wide range of aftermarket stocks
- Accepts some aftermarket parts like gas system parts, sights, and forends
- Capable of accepting many common accessories via picatinny mounts for scopes and other optics.

The M1A is NOT:
- Cheap: By the time you're done accurizing and adding scope mounts, you'll have spent a minimum of $500 and probably more. For stocks, expect $300 - $1000+ dollars. M1As also usually experience sub-par performance with 147/150gr NATO. You need 168gr+ HPBT to reveal its accuracy potential, and that will cost you $1/round unless you learn to reload.

- Accurate out of the box: it isn't unusual for the standard, no-frills-USGI models to shoot 3-5MOA out of the box, even with match ammo; sometimes, they're even worse (like mine). The front band is prone to sloppy lockup against the stock and gas key, the handguard may need filing to create a free-float effect, hopefully the op-rod & piston are aligned well, and the flat, USGI spring guide causes cockamamie motion during cycling. On top of this, if your stock is not fitted to the action well, you may experience some frustrating accuracy problems. These are all issues that can be addressed through gunsmithing, aftermarket parts or just buying a better model--but you'll pay for it.

- Easy to maintain & customize: these do usually require work to maintain their accuracy. Bedding wears out, and you can't just throw it around without upsetting stock and forend lockup. Want to try a new barrel? Well, you're not going to be installing it yourself without some expensive, special tools. Want a scope? Your scope mount and other new parts may require some fitting.


Now all of this said, I am very happy with mine. I keep my M1A for the same reason that some people want classic cars--for the nostalgia, not the technology.

Just be aware of what you're getting into. If you want a fun, classic rifle or a competition rifle (that you'll put some money into), the M1A is your guy. If you're looking for the most functional, economical, accurate and lightest .308 rifle around, I'd look at more modern offerings.

If you get your M1A, I advise you buy one with as many of the following parts as possible or otherwise plan on buying these parts later:

1) Barrel with 1:10 twist
1) Unitized gas cylinder
2) Sadlak spring guide (or any other one, as long as it is ROUND and not flat)
3) Sadlak scope mount (airborne version if possible)
4) Recommend you stick to Springfield and Checkmate (CMI) for mags; lots of knock-offs out there that don't work too well. And for goodness sake, don't buy the polymer ones--the feed-lips barely hold the rounds in.

Other recommended parts include:
* Titanium nitride gas piston
* Improved mag release button
* Improved bolt catch

[agtman]

After he gets done doing all that, the OP will have spent more money trying to accurize and mod that M1A into "AR trim" than if he'd just went out and bought one brand or other of the more modular, easier-to-scope .308 ARs.

[Model12Win]

I'd like DSA Voyager, but have heard many horror stories on DSA quality these days.

[Phoenix54c]

Originally Posted by agtman

After he gets done doing all that, the OP will have spent more money trying to accurize and mod that M1A into "AR trim" than if he'd just went out and bought one brand or other of the more modular, easier-to-scope .308 ARs.

Yeah, not going to argue with that at all. I also forgot to mention, your run-of-the mill gunsmiths just don't know these rifles well enough to inspect and service them. You'll need someone specially trained on M1As, and that will usually require shipping cross-country to say, Springfield or Fulton Armory.

Again, while I love the M1A, if you're constrained by budget, time or have any serious intention of using said rifle for mortal combat XD, I'd go with something else.

[longtooth50]

My M1A never had a hiccup. I did keep it clean. Hit what I put the cross hairs on.

[DMK]

One thing I love about my FALs is they are functionally very simple. Nearly AK like simple.

I don't have an M1A/M14, but I've had M1 Garands and AR15s for years. I rarely shoot my M1 because it's a hassle to field strip and you can't clean the bore from the breach end. AR15s are OK to clean, but get very dirty and have small parts in the BCG.

FALs and AKs are a dream to field strip and clean. You can field strip and reassemble a FAL with winter gloves on. You could probably even do it with mittens on. Punch the bore with a cleaning rod, wipe off the bolt with a rag, wipe off the gas piston with a rag, oil the bolt and and put it back together. Done in 15 minutes.

FAL It's the right arm of the free world.

[EMB135Driver]

Ruger SR762

[shaunpain]

I was able to assemble my own LR 308 from high quality parts for under $1000 so that is another option. I've been lucky, though, and every gun I've built or assembled has worked without issue. Using high quality parts is probably the common denominator.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[davidsog]

Some good advice in this thread. Watch out comparing apples to oranges. A Sniper rifle is not a MBR, it is a sniper rifle. A rifle for putting holes in paper that looks like a MBR is not necessarily an MBR.

Guns are tools so ask yourself what work you want to perform.

Do you want a knife to whittle wood, peel apples, and cut string or perform delicate brain surgery. One a good rugged folding locking blade is best while the other a scalpel would be better. Scalpels cut very well but there is a reason why nobody carries one on their belt as a general purpose knife.

It really depends on what you want to do with your .308 MBR. Keep in mind that all service rifles are going to be about a 2.5 MOA gun out of the box. To argue about sub MOA or anything less than 2.5 MOA is rather silly. The weapon is already within the average shooters ability and all of them can be tweaked to gain some accuracy. Do not look at modifications. Consider the basic rifle in it service configuration as issued from the rack as much as possible. This is the foundation you will build the house upon. All of these weapons can be modified for both reliability and accuracy limited only by time and money.

If is to put holes in paper on a sunday afternoon, then the FN-FAL clone and M14 clones are both running neck and neck. Great rifles and are covered pretty well in the thread. Both have some drawbacks.

1. Both suffer from long unsupported barrels. Not an issue at the range. Becomes an issue in combat as soldiers move about the battlefield flinging their bodies behind cover (IMT-Individual Movement Techniques...low crawl..high crawl...rush) often landing on their rifle. Bent barrels was a significant issue for both designs and a prominent reason the M-14 was withdrawn from service. Simply google "FN-FAL bent barrel or M14 bent barrel"....you will get a lot of hits and can read for yourself. Absolutely not a issue if you are not planning to rush or low crawl with your chosen rifle!

2. Reliability in combat conditions. Both designs were withdrawn from service in various Armies due to reliability issues. The M14 is well known and do not stem from the reliability of the action but rather stock issues and previously discussed long barrel. I carried an m21(not the M14 MBR) on my second tour to Afghanistan in the GMV for squirter control. The FN-FAL in various forms (specifics is very very important) developed receiver cracks which is why there are 3 different receiver designs and had a high rate of malfunctions under combat conditions depending on the user and specifics.

Here is some pretty good videos that can shed some light on the different action designs and weaknesses:

FN-FAL:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIkye_o3bGc

M1A/M14:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYfGq1yk66Q

I would caution you on the AR-10 platform knockoffs. Do your homework as parts/magazines are pretty much all proprietary with little to no interchangeability. That being said, the AR10/AR15 is much more reliable in my experience than either the FAL or the M1A as a combat rifle...specifics are important though.

If you want something for the zombie apocalypse and that is fun to shoot at the range, I would suggest a PTR-91GI. Not the F series or anything else...the GI as that is MBR version of the PTR-91. It is good value considering the availability of parts, cost of magazines, and versatility of the design. You can pick up a dozen magazines for under 50 bucks for example.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYdoG4_Hmyc


That being said, HK delayed roller actions took some time to appreciate. I first encountered them in Bco. 1/75th with MP5SD's. Great little subgun.

I became familiar with G3's in the Q-course and did not like it. Later encountered the design in several South American Armies as well as Afghanistan. Common theme was the guys that lugged that hoss of a rifle, loved it and the ergonomics worked very well during IMT and practical infantry combat shooting. The ergonomics are improved upon with a European style magazine release (paddle).

It simply works well.

Common complaints - The recoil is over-rated but is more than other MBR because of the velocity of the action involving a large chunk of metal moving at high speed. Poor recoil management skills will cause poor recoil management.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAwM71383C0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ds3zqUCduTM

The second video has one inaccuracy. The rifle mirrors standard European Military thought in not having a bolt that locks to the rear. Most Service FN-FAL's did not have bolts that locked to the rear.

The thinking behind it and in my combat experience it is valid thinking is that you do not have to train soldiers to do two different course of action under fire. You only have to train them to do ONE thing...open the bolt. That is why European service FN-FAL's did not feature a locking bolt either. Clearing any malfunction requires opening the action. When the gun stops, the soldier does one thing to get it going again. If you read the manual's malfunctions sections, there is nothing that cannot be fixed by locking the bolt to the rear and changing magazines. If that does not work, it is armorer issue and your rifle is an expensive club until fixed.

Having used a rifle with a bolt lock in combat it is great when it working. When it does not it will cause a "-CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED-!!" moment. The AK series does not lock to the rear for the same reason.

It is individual preference but there is a solid thought process behind both courses of action regarding a bolt that locks.

You can google HK G3 bent barrel and see the results, too.

Anyway, I hope this helps with your questions. Enjoy them all if you can!

[stagpanther]

That being said, HK delayed roller actions took some time to appreciate. I first encountered them in Bco. 1/75th with MP5SD's. Great little subgun.

I became familiar with G3's in the Q-course and did not like it. Later encountered the design in several South American Armies as well as Afghanistan. Common theme was the guys that lugged that hoss of a rifle, loved it and the ergonomics worked very well during IMT and practical infantry combat shooting. The ergonomics are improved upon with a European style magazine release (paddle).

It simply works well.

Common complaints - The recoil is over-rated but is more than other MBR because of the velocity of the action involving a large chunk of metal moving at high speed. Poor recoil management skills will cause poor recoil management.

Friend of mine just got a PTR-- hugely impressed by it's HK knock-off efficiency. The rifled chamber is very nice, it seems to me that this is a design meant for serious reliability in heavy use. Downsides, from my casual armchair paper-puncher's point of view is that it gets very dirty very fast in the upper--and since I'm a reloader--don't like the fact it absolutely annihilates the spent brass.

[davidsog]

Friend of mine just got a PTR-- hugely impressed by it's HK knock-off efficiency. The rifled chamber is very nice, it seems to me that this is a design meant for serious reliability in heavy use. Downsides, from my casual armchair paper-puncher's point of view is that it gets very dirty very fast in the upper--and since I'm a reloader--don't like the fact it absolutely annihilates the spent brass.

You are right it does make the brass look horrible but surprisingly you can still reload the brass. I agree it is not the ideal by any means from a reloader POV. We get into the pitfall of the M1A guys in "my gun is super accurate AFTER I spent money and time modifying it to be accurate". The HK action can be modified to be more "reloader friendly".

15:13 he starts the reload sequence:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZeJQMkJDiI

If you are a reloader then some modification really help. Add the shell deflector which there are several options on the market from "clip on" to HK service shell deflector which is welded on to the rifle.

http://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/HK-G3...-On-p12747.htm

Several G3 user nations had weld on option standard, btw.

As for the upper being dirtier all bends and channels sure make it seem that way. In fact you would think that without a gas system all the reside and carbon has nowhere to go except into the upper.

It actually goes out the barrel and with no gas system to push it back into the gun, the rifle stays surprisingly clean. There is no gas flowing back into the action, if there was you would not want to shoot it, LOL. Mechanical flow does occur and it's not an surgical suit after you fire it. Think of it like the old muzzleloader guys blowing on the smoke coming out of their barrels after firing. Only the bolt carrier group is blowing it into the action.

Sounds counterintuitive but the action shoots clean. Much cleaner than say a gas impingement design like the AR15 series.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xusr9M9cHr4

Theory is one thing practical is another. I cannot see any huge difference compared to other weapons. The only blowback action that surprised me in the cleaning department was an M3 grease gun.

Obviously it does get dirty like any other weapon but nothing outstanding either way.

I expected my PTR to be fairly nasty after 300 rounds of surplus 7.62mm NATO. I did not use gun scrubber or any solvent outside of Hops #9 in the barrel/chamber. Did the soldier thing of CLP/Qtips on the rest. It was clean in 20 minutes without extraordinary effort.

Your mileage may vary and that upper on the PTR/HK has a lot of nooks and crannies. Proper tools make all the difference and a good brush helps.

[davidsog]

Just thinking about your friends gun annihilating brass. Did he check the bolt gap? If it is out of specs it can cause the action to more violent than normal.