Help with 9mm – failure to eject.

[captainvette2112]

Hello. I am new here and looking for some help.

Because of the severe shortage of powder in my area I have had to resort to Accurate Nitro 100 (new formula) for my 9mm reloads.

Here is the official data from Accurate for the bullets Im using

115 (P) BERRY RNDS 2.9 - 875 - 3.5 - 990 - 33,000 - 1.130

http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-con...ec_1-23-14.pdf

I am using a Lee Classic Turret, pro auto disk and FDC slight crimp

I started at 3.0g. and 1.130 oal

S&W MP Shied chambered, fired and ejected fine.
Beretta 92fs – failure to eject on every shot.
Beretta Px4 Storm Compact - failure to eject on every shot.

The rounds will eject fine manually racking the slide but every fired shot is either a stovepipe or total failure to eject at all

So I bumped it up to 3.5

Shield still shoots fine here

The Berettas would eject ½ of the time however when they did eject the brass just kinda falls out. It would pop up maybe 3 inches and practically land back on my hand and the slide never locked back on the last round. On some of the particularly weak ejections I would also get a FTF

So now I am up to 3.8 and down to 1.12 oal. Totally out of speck however the Berettas are now just starting to function properly. They still don’t throw the brass like factory ammo but at least I get a locked slide on the last round.

Im looking for signs of overpressure but I don’t think Im seeing any... then again I have always loaded lite and have never had to look for overpressure

Could this be due to the extremely fast burning nature of Nitro 100? Could Accurate’s load data for this powder just be off? Something I am not thinking of?

Anyone have experience with Nitro 100 for 9mm?

I am already way over max but it feels like it still too lite but Im super nervous about it. Unfortunately Nitro 100 is the best thing around at the moment.

Thanks for any help.

[Jeff2131]

Speaking from experience, i fire the px4 storm full size. I found that a powder charge on the low end caused stove piping also. I moved up to 1 gr short of max and everything cycled fine. Now, im using Unique so idk about your powder. But i can tell you that if youre not reloading a very snappy round for that berretta, youre going to have issues. Try a heavier crimp on that bullet too. That will increase dwell time and allow pressures to rise causing your round to have enough "pop" to properly work the action. My step fagher has the shield and i reload for him and my 1gr below max loads cycle his shield perfectly. I would suggest staying atleast a grain below max but putting a heavier crimp on those rounds. Also, what primers are you using?

[captainvette2112]

Jeff, Im using Winchester Small Pistol primers.

[Jeff2131]

Ok, not that it makes too much of a difference. Just curious. I use cci. But yea, i would def recommend more crimp. And i would assume that you take care of your toys but just incase...make sure your gun is clean and lubricated properly.

[BigJimP]

Going over the published max...would make me real nervous too..../ based on the load data you listed...3.5 gr is only giving you 990 fps but pressures are up around 33,000 .../ so increasing it over max - I'm worried about how much pressure you have in those cases - risking a case failure. But I'm not sure how much pressure is too much on a 9mm case -- and depending on how many times the cases have been reloaded...where the safety point is...


If you really want to stay with that powder, I'd go back to the max of 3.5 and then change the main spring (hammer strut spring) ...and maybe the recoil spring on the Beretta --- to get it to cycle that lower velocity load.
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Powder availability is certainly an issue...but take a look around for a powder that guys are using for something else, like shotguns, in Hodgdon you might find some Clays or Universal ...both of them will get your velocities up over 1050 fps within published ranges ( and a lot of shotgunners use them in 12ga and 20gr and even 28ga shells )...so a shotgun range in your area may have some to sell / or you may have a buddy that is a shotgunner that will sell you a lb out of his inventory to help you out / as a shotgunner, we use a lot more powder per shell...but a lot of us keep at least one 8lb keg of Clays and an 8lb keg of Universal around....

There is a link below, that I posted using Hodgdon Clays on 115gr FMJ bullets ....and I was pleasantly surprised at the results using Clays ( I was not sure it was going to be a good powder for a small case like a 9mm). But I've loaded another 20 boxes this morning ...and I like it a lot.

[jepp2]

Keep in the mind the max of 3.5 was for their pistol, their powder, their test conditions.

Do you notice a difference in the brass fired in the Beretta's? If the chambers are just slightly more generous, the peak pressure will be considerably less. If the internal volume of the your case is slightly larger, the pressure will again be considerably less.

Your choice, but your experience seems to tell me that with your components the Beretta's need more powder. And that isn't necessarily a bad thing. Remember the manual is documentation of what they found with their components and testing. Not yours. I do not ignore test data, I use it as the developer intended, as a guide to assist you. Not absolute extremes.

[captainvette2112]

BigJimP

I think Nitro 100 is a shotgun powder so thats why I thought it would work.

I would have grabbed Clays or Universal if they had any around here. Cabelas super store and Sportsmans Warehouse powder shelves are permanently empty.

The 3 other mom & pop reloading stores in Boise only have the uber mag and other obscure powders on the shelves.

Boise has been bone dry for like 4 months..... you can get primers though lol.

The only people around here able to get pistol powder are the Cliff Clavin's - (the guys who spend 40 hours a week in the gun shops but who dont actually work there) because they are there the min anything comes in.

[captainvette2112]

jepp2,

Im not really seeing a difference in the brass between the Shield and the 2 Beretta's.

No flattening of primers or anything. I am seeing what *might* be cratering, however its not like what I have seen in pics.

There is a raised circle but its not around the edge of the pin strike dimple. Its kinda like the rings of Saturn... inbetween the pin strike dimple and outer edge of the primer

[BigJimP]

Ok, Captain...at least you're thinking of other alternative sources...

I don't have any experience with Nitro 100.
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You're looking at increased pressure indications the only way I know how to do it as well...

But this idea that the powder companies only list "guidelines" for their MInimum and Maximum loads - strikes me as curious ?? Doesn't it make more sense, that the powder company probably tried to use more powder in this 9mm load - both to increase velocity / and to see what happened to the pressures ( so you would buy the powder --and use more of it per cartridge ) so they could sell more... ??

I realize powder mfg's have lawyers looking at their test results too ...and maybe there is a little room up around the max ( to allow a reloader to be careless ) and overcharge a little bit / and not blow up a gun and hurt someone....but I don't know how you would ever find out how much....

I noticed in the recipe they did not list pressure for the minimum in their tables...and there is no way to know if the pressure curve the load builds is linear or increases exponentially...but if you could find a pressure the minimum load, it might help you feel better about going a little bit over the max....like 0.1gr or 0.2 grain maybe ( but I still wouldn't do it, sorry )...

This idea that the "Max load" is only a guideline, strikes me as a little too risky...

I hope this powder shortage is short lived....but I don't know anymore than anyone else....

[Idaho Spud]

If the ejected rounds just barely crawl out of the ejection port the fact is that load hasn't enough pressure to work THAT gun. Whether you feel comfy going over so-called "book" loads is your choice. I know what I'd do, though. And after 30+ years I still have 10 fingers and my face. Maybe just lucky.

Have no experience with your powder, but have loaded Bulleye and 700X and Titegroup, fast powders, all.

Pressure is good. Of course TOO much is NOT. But you need sufficient pressure or your semi-auto just won't work. You can always try another powder. May I suggest W231/HP38?

[Wreck-n-Crew]

IF your guessing that you might need to bump it up a little you may be right. Fast powders are better for softer loads and have more trouble cycling in some guns. Slower powders generally produce more oomph and cycle better on the starting to low end load charges than do the fast burners.

You have probably noticed the lighter push or knock as opposed to the snap of a factory round.

[captainvette2112]

Just an update.

The bullets I have are Berry's 115 RN, not the 115 RNDS listed. Not sure how much of a difference that would make.

Went to the range yesterday with 100 rounds of the 3.8g Nitro 100.

No FTF's or FTE's. So thats good, still ejecting brass kinda weak but the slide is locking on the last shot.

Then I did 50 rounds of Federal factory range ammo. MUCH hotter and snappier and it threw bass across the room lol.

Wish I had a chrono cause I still feel like these "overmax" loads are underpowered

[Idaho Spud]

One of the nice things about loading for a semi auto is that the gun tells you what it needs, in particular how the empty brass exits the gun. Sounds like you're getting there. With that powder you may be getting close. When you DO get there, call that MAX for your gun and you'll have it. And with luck (but mostly common sense) you'll retain all your digits.

[Jeff2131]

Im still voting for a heavier crimp opposed to raising the charge. Try loading your rounds and then taking the seater portion of the die out and run your rounds back through and give them a firm second crimping.

[Idaho Spud]

With the fast powder he's using, in this case, I don't think a heavier crimp is going to matter much. Heavy crimps help more in cartridges like 44 mag, etc. when using slow burning powder with heavy bullets to get the pressure up, to get things going.

Also, too much taper crimp can result in deformed bullets.

[flyguy958]

Berry plated bullets don't like a heavy crimp, damages the plating.

I don't have any suggestions or solutions other than don't put a heavy crimp in a plated bullet.

[jepp2]

A heavier crimp is only going to raise pressure if you have inadequate neck tension.

You can seat the bullets deeper, or add more powder. Either of those will increase pressure. You have a very good comparison point with the Federal factory loads for signs of increased pressure. With some fast burning powders as little as 0.020" increase in seating depth (reduction of OAL) can significantly increase the pressure.

But I will be the first to acknowledge that I don't know your pistols. I am assuming they have the stock recoil springs in them and that the recoil spring hasn't been replaced with a stronger spring.

I respect that some folks would never exceed the book max on a load. I can't argue that is a safe approach. But don't take the opposite position that the book load is always safe in your firearm. Too many variables that can influence things.

I prefer to avoid the fast burn rate powders as they are much less forgiving to load development. Just isn't the same broad pressure curve to protect you.

[Wreck-n-Crew]

Just an update.

The bullets I have are Berry's 115 RN, not the 115 RNDS listed. Not sure how much of a difference that would make.

Went to the range yesterday with 100 rounds of the 3.8g Nitro 100.

That's over on the Max listed data for 115 GR RN FMJ. The highest charge for any 115 GR bullet from the website is 3.6.

115 (P) RAIN RN 3.0 896 3.6 1,020 34,781 1.140

Wish I had a chrono cause I still feel like these "overmax" loads are underpowered

I would suggest getting one before adding any more powder for sure. Like I said the hotter faster burning powders like nitro have a tendency to be real soft shooters even when reaching max pressure. Read your loaders manual on pressure curves. Fast burners also tend to burn hotter as well.

I love WST It's another fast burning powder. Real nice in 45ACP and clean too. Soft shooting loads. But guns that are harder to cycle require more oomph to cycle properly.

[WESHOOT2]

I never got decent results in 9x19 with Nitro 100; it's best in 45 ACP.

Might I suggest to the OP he test:

-Power Pistol
-Silhouette
-W231
-others

[captainvette2112]

I would love to try different powders..... but again I dont think you understand the extent of the powder shortage here in Boise and I just cant justify shipping + hazmat to buy powder online *IF* I could even find the ones you listed.

[WESHOOT2]

No, I understand (being here in the woods of Vermont).


But please be assured that if you can economically buy Power Pistol or Silhouette in any quantity you'll have a highly appropriate powder for loading (at least) the 9x19

[Brian Pfleuger]

I just cant justify shipping + hazmat to buy powder online *IF* I could even find the ones you listed.

If you're local prices are anything like they are around here, you only need to order about 3 pounds of powder or substitute 1000 primers and you're right about break-even at worst.

Powder Valley sells Power Pistol for $15.50/lb. (Yes, it's out of stock.) Local prices here are at least $25, if not $28. (It's out of stock here too.) Hazmat and shipping is around $35 total. 3 pounds of powder and I've saved $30-$39. Local primer prices are at least $39/1000, $60 for BR primers compared to $27 and $40 at PV.

[pbcaster45]

Lighter recoil springs will help too...

[SHR970]

If the ejected rounds just barely crawl out of the ejection port the fact is that load hasn't enough pressure to work THAT gun.

Actually that powder doesn't create enough dwell time in the pressure window to operate that gun. You can go way over pressure and still not work the action.

I'm still voting for a heavier crimp opposed to raising the charge.

Nope. The next three posters have it right. All you are going to do is damage the plating and possibly induce head space issues. If there is enough neck tension to not have bullet set back it is of no value with fast powders. If there wasn't enough crimp there would be chambering issues and if not enough neck tension either there would be FTc due to set back or pressures would spike drastically if it chambered then was fired.

The problem is that the POWDER is not correct for this caliber in this gun!

In the early 90's when Accurate first became available to me there was a note in the loaders guide concerning AA#2 and 9mm. It stated that it may not cycle certain "High Performance" 9mm's. This was especially notable for 115 gr. bullets in both Min and Max loads. We now have AA#2 Improved....I would venture to guess that this is a significant reformulation as I haven't seen the notes since its introduction.

The hands down absolutely most accurate load I ever found for my P89 was a load out of the Hornady manual (BTW the charge was over AA's max by a fair bit) using Nosler 115 gr. HP's. The problem was that they didn't cycle the action well and caused malfunctions : FTE. They do however work in my Sig 239. Your problem sounds an awful lot like the first gen of AA#2.

Looking in a variety on my manuals including older Accurate from Guide #2 to 3.4, I don't see Nitro 100 listed for 9mm. I'm pretty sure that you found out why. Time to look for a new powder.

[Idaho Spud]

Quote:
If the ejected rounds just barely crawl out of the ejection port the fact is that load hasn't enough pressure to work THAT gun.
Actually that powder doesn't create enough dwell time in the pressure window to operate that gun. You can go way over pressure and still not work the action.

Well, I stand corrected, proof you can learn no matter how long you've done something. Always wondered why there's so little data for Hodgdon Titewad for handgun. Maybe that's why. Data that doesn't work sure doesn't make sense, though. I'm guessing it's not the first time.