Effective unarmed combat?

LASur5r · August 11, 2000, 03:16 PM

I would like to know from your experiences, what is the individual martial arts that is best(in simple application in street self-defense?) in each of the following categories?

Strangle holds/chokeouts?
Hand strikes?
Wrist throws?
Kicks?
Body throws?
Takedowns?
Ground fighting?

LawDog · August 11, 2000, 06:39 PM

The effectiveness of a martial art isn't in the movements, it's in the warrior.

For example, a man trained in Judo might beat a BJJ-trained man in ground combat easily. Another man of the same height and weight and trained in Judo by the same sensei may get utterly stomped by the BJJ man.

Any martial art, paired with heart and desire, will beat whatever the chic martial art is this week as used by a dilettante.

If you're wanting to study 'street-fighting', pick a martial art that combines and incoporates long-range, close-up and ground-fighting. Train and practice that art like you mean it, and you should do okay.

LawDog

paratrooper · August 11, 2000, 09:22 PM

Aikido !

------------------
TOM
SASS AMERICAN LEGION NRA GOA

Skorzeny · August 12, 2000, 12:24 AM

While I agree with LawDog, I will say that, keeping all other variables equal, certain systems teach certain things better (due to the way things are systematically broken down and taught).

For example, boxing and Muay Thai will teach excellent punching and kicking skills. On the other hand, Jeet Kune Do teaches you to strike well in a street fight context (meaning no wrapped and gloved fists).

Judo and Sambo teaches excellent throws based on leverage and handles (lapels, sleeves, etc.) while wrestling specializes in no handle throws.

BJJ excels in various ground positions, reversals and submissions.

Aikidoka and Hapkido practitioners are very good at wrist throws (though, in my personal opinion, the effectiveness of wrist throws are limited - not useless - just limited).

And so on and so forth... There is no magic system that does it all.

Skorzeny

------------------
For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

The Observer · August 12, 2000, 12:35 AM

Hello!! to every one.

Can't help not to give my opinion of what I am reading on this forum that is full of sensible opinions.

As to the kind of martial arts which best, I seconded Lawdog reasoning that it is up to the warrior.

With several martial arts I've been into, there are weaknesses and strong techniques they taught, but again it is up to the performer. Basic martial arts of any kind is very much applicable if well used with determination.

paratrooper · August 12, 2000, 01:25 PM

One thing to remember . We that have had a bit of training in ANY Martial Art are light years ahead of just about any POS that wants trouble . Martial Arts requires time and discipline . Things not usually found in the average POS . So to say that one is better or worse than another is merely nit picking . The BG is still showing up at a gun fight with a knife .
Here's a tactic that works for anyone that chooses . If you are grabbed from the front usually both of your attackers hands are busy clutching you . You must only grab the BG's head and grab his nose with your teeth . You must get a good grip and then bite with all your strength . The jaw muscles are extremely strong and the pain inflicted is virtually unbearable .
Although this is not considered Martial Art in it's purist form let's call it " Why Tom is still alive and one NVA soldier is not ." Trust me it works . You don't have to be unarmed , just out of ammo for the moment .

------------------
TOM
SASS AMERICAN LEGION NRA GOA

Squirrel_Bait · August 12, 2000, 06:30 PM

If you have seen those ads for SCARS training in the magazines, you might be interested to know it's repackaged San Soo style kung fu. Some call San Soo "chinese street fighting". While primarily a stand-up-and-fight system it also has takedowns. Check the yellow pages for a nearby school and sit in on a class to see if it's what you want.

chokeu2 · August 13, 2000, 09:35 AM

I love posts like these. As someone who has trained for the better part of 18 years, I definitley have some opinions.

As far as the individual goes, I have to concur with lawman, alot of how well you fight depends on the heart of the fighter.

Now practically speaking about the arts, first you have to find one that you like. You should research the traditions and origins of the art. Don't just pick one cause it looks cool, or because you will be able to "kick ass". That will only get yours kicked.

In my years of training I think that I have settled into the best of worlds in "real world fighting." I have been training in Muay Thai, BJJ, and Kali for quite some time now. I like thai for stand up striking(duh), BJJ for the ground(duh again), and perhaps the most interesting art, Kali. Kali reinforces the others arts, but adds weaponry to its primary training function. You work weapons before you work hand and foot training. However, the hand and foot movements mimic the weapons movements. Meaning, that whatever you can do with a knive in your hand, you can do with bare hand. The most important thing to do is to have a hard ass instructor that will not let you just get by. You have to train hard.

Having said all of that, I have tried TKD(great for sport), and traditional Japanese Karate styles(too rigid for real world, no ground aspects). So please do not think that I am trashing other arts. You have to love what you do, know its limits and its advantages. And you must cross train. And you must never underestimate your opponent.

Anyone interested in training in Atlanta, I am on staff at a facility that is over 30,000 square feet of fighters paradise! That is where I am when not at my full time, corporate method of financing my training... ;-) So drop me an email if you are ever around!

------------------
Open Mind, Closed Fist

[This message has been edited by chokeu2 (edited August 13, 2000).]

August 11, 2000, 03:16 PM	#1
LASur5r Junior member Join Date: July 20, 2000 Location: pasadena,california,America Posts: 542	I would like to know from your experiences, what is the individual martial arts that is best(in simple application in street self-defense?) in each of the following categories? Strangle holds/chokeouts? Hand strikes? Wrist throws? Kicks? Body throws? Takedowns? Ground fighting?

August 11, 2000, 06:39 PM	#2
LawDog Staff Emeritus Join Date: September 15, 1999 Location: Where am I going? Why am I in this handbasket? Posts: 4,194	The effectiveness of a martial art isn't in the movements, it's in the warrior. For example, a man trained in Judo might beat a BJJ-trained man in ground combat easily. Another man of the same height and weight and trained in Judo by the same sensei may get utterly stomped by the BJJ man. Any martial art, paired with heart and desire, will beat whatever the chic martial art is this week as used by a dilettante. If you're wanting to study 'street-fighting', pick a martial art that combines and incoporates long-range, close-up and ground-fighting. Train and practice that art like you mean it, and you should do okay. LawDog

August 11, 2000, 09:22 PM	#3
paratrooper Senior Member Join Date: March 31, 2000 Location: Kingman AZ Posts: 1,290	Aikido ! ------------------ TOM SASS AMERICAN LEGION NRA GOA

August 12, 2000, 12:24 AM	#4
Skorzeny Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 1999 Posts: 1,938	While I agree with LawDog, I will say that, keeping all other variables equal, certain systems teach certain things better (due to the way things are systematically broken down and taught). For example, boxing and Muay Thai will teach excellent punching and kicking skills. On the other hand, Jeet Kune Do teaches you to strike well in a street fight context (meaning no wrapped and gloved fists). Judo and Sambo teaches excellent throws based on leverage and handles (lapels, sleeves, etc.) while wrestling specializes in no handle throws. BJJ excels in various ground positions, reversals and submissions. Aikidoka and Hapkido practitioners are very good at wrist throws (though, in my personal opinion, the effectiveness of wrist throws are limited - not useless - just limited). And so on and so forth... There is no magic system that does it all. Skorzeny ------------------ For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

August 12, 2000, 12:35 AM	#5
The Observer Member Join Date: August 11, 2000 Location: Pacific Rim Posts: 87	Hello!! to every one. Can't help not to give my opinion of what I am reading on this forum that is full of sensible opinions. As to the kind of martial arts which best, I seconded Lawdog reasoning that it is up to the warrior. With several martial arts I've been into, there are weaknesses and strong techniques they taught, but again it is up to the performer. Basic martial arts of any kind is very much applicable if well used with determination.

August 12, 2000, 01:25 PM	#6
paratrooper Senior Member Join Date: March 31, 2000 Location: Kingman AZ Posts: 1,290	One thing to remember . We that have had a bit of training in ANY Martial Art are light years ahead of just about any POS that wants trouble . Martial Arts requires time and discipline . Things not usually found in the average POS . So to say that one is better or worse than another is merely nit picking . The BG is still showing up at a gun fight with a knife . Here's a tactic that works for anyone that chooses . If you are grabbed from the front usually both of your attackers hands are busy clutching you . You must only grab the BG's head and grab his nose with your teeth . You must get a good grip and then bite with all your strength . The jaw muscles are extremely strong and the pain inflicted is virtually unbearable . Although this is not considered Martial Art in it's purist form let's call it " Why Tom is still alive and one NVA soldier is not ." Trust me it works . You don't have to be unarmed , just out of ammo for the moment . ------------------ TOM SASS AMERICAN LEGION NRA GOA

August 12, 2000, 06:30 PM	#7
Squirrel_Bait Member Join Date: December 30, 1999 Location: La Puente, CA, USA Posts: 65	If you have seen those ads for SCARS training in the magazines, you might be interested to know it's repackaged San Soo style kung fu. Some call San Soo "chinese street fighting". While primarily a stand-up-and-fight system it also has takedowns. Check the yellow pages for a nearby school and sit in on a class to see if it's what you want.

August 13, 2000, 09:35 AM	#8
chokeu2 Member Join Date: June 9, 2000 Location: Atlanta Posts: 53	I love posts like these. As someone who has trained for the better part of 18 years, I definitley have some opinions. As far as the individual goes, I have to concur with lawman, alot of how well you fight depends on the heart of the fighter. Now practically speaking about the arts, first you have to find one that you like. You should research the traditions and origins of the art. Don't just pick one cause it looks cool, or because you will be able to "kick ass". That will only get yours kicked. In my years of training I think that I have settled into the best of worlds in "real world fighting." I have been training in Muay Thai, BJJ, and Kali for quite some time now. I like thai for stand up striking(duh), BJJ for the ground(duh again), and perhaps the most interesting art, Kali. Kali reinforces the others arts, but adds weaponry to its primary training function. You work weapons before you work hand and foot training. However, the hand and foot movements mimic the weapons movements. Meaning, that whatever you can do with a knive in your hand, you can do with bare hand. The most important thing to do is to have a hard ass instructor that will not let you just get by. You have to train hard. Having said all of that, I have tried TKD(great for sport), and traditional Japanese Karate styles(too rigid for real world, no ground aspects). So please do not think that I am trashing other arts. You have to love what you do, know its limits and its advantages. And you must cross train. And you must never underestimate your opponent. Anyone interested in training in Atlanta, I am on staff at a facility that is over 30,000 square feet of fighters paradise! That is where I am when not at my full time, corporate method of financing my training... ;-) So drop me an email if you are ever around! ------------------ Open Mind, Closed Fist [This message has been edited by chokeu2 (edited August 13, 2000).]