1/2-oz 12 Gauge (for the Search engines)

mehavey · October 5, 2021, 09:44 AM

Just playing on the skeet range for the last 9 months -- decide to take the shot weights down.
Hodgdon & Lyman have good Load references, so I walked it down: 1⅛, 1.0, 7/8, 3/4, ... things shot so well-balanced with the 12ga Beretta O/U that I thought I'd take it down to duplicate where my Beretta 410 was as well -- only with better "mass" in swinging up/over on Low Gun.

Only no data -- at all -- for 12Ga_½oz

"The Internet" came up with just duplicating mid point 3/4 oz data for the components (AA/Fiocchi616/Claybuster-CB0175-12/700X/15gr), and putting a felt wad-spacer in the 3/4-oz shot cup.
(Felt was more trouble than it's worth. I settled on using a 1/8" card)

FailSafe -- same powder load, but lighter projectile.
Worked/shot well over about a week-10 days

Decided to save my 700X supply and look for other powder options.
Hodgdon listed that same 3/4 oz load for 700X, Clays, and TiteWad.
I had a coupla pounds of Clays.
Same game: Mid 3/4 oz Loadout (16.9gr), but with lighter projectile (1/2 oz)

AHEM:
A bit of a surprise -- and had to walk it down... "quite a bit"

Chronographs are your friend.

WARNING: My Beretta/Shotgun, the exact components listed, and my dusty old (but still very reliable) Oehler-35.
Your mileage may vary.

stinkeypete · October 5, 2021, 12:44 PM

Very impressive work. Thank you for posting!

Perhaps the most impressive thing is that you didn't shoot your chronograph with your shotgun. I've shot mine several times.

The versatility of a shotgun continues to impress me, and reminds me why I keep that old single shot Stevens in my gun safe. From squirrel to deer, it can do it in a pinch.

Jim Watson · October 5, 2021, 03:02 PM

Interesting path of development.

Let us know how a half ounce 12 gauge patterns and breaks targets compared to a .410.

mehavey · October 5, 2021, 06:02 PM

The patterning board doesn't show big difference in 23yd/skeet chokes effect between the two Berettas (12/410)
But the 12ga's mass is much more comfortable in swinging into/with the birds.

Adding to the data tonight since I've now got to live w/ a dog's breakfast in primer stock:
Relative/Probable peak pressure effect at far right:

MarkCO · October 6, 2021, 10:37 AM

Nice work.

FITASC · October 6, 2021, 12:43 PM

I can say that my 3/4oz 12 gauge loads absolutely crush targets when I tighten things up at least one constriction from what I would use with a 1oz load

stuckinthe60s · October 6, 2021, 07:20 PM

it seems like a lot of work. but hey, its the joy of being American, I guess. bravo.

Seedy Character · October 7, 2021, 08:48 AM

I've loaded a lot of the 3/4 oz loads. Great for teaching young, small frame or recoil sensitive shooters. Great for Cowboy Action, too.
Plus, the slight savings on shot and powder.

I may have to give 1/2 oz a try

FITASC · October 7, 2021, 10:19 AM

Not slight savings, especially compared to a 1oz or 1-1/8oz load. The shot savings are substantial. The reduction in recoil lets me shoot 300-400 rounds in a day; even through my Beretta gas guns

FITASC · October 7, 2021, 10:32 AM

OP- I wonder if it would be easier to place the filler cards over the shot instead of under?

mehavey · October 7, 2021, 03:51 PM

Actually, just dropping the card into the shot cup, and then seating the shot cup as normal
followed by shot drop, seems the simplest method. Produces normal crimp.

Also, doesn't leave anything in front of the shot column to decelerate back through the
pattern as things exit the muzzle.

darkgael · October 12, 2021, 10:23 PM

Food for thought about the wad placed atop the shot and the possible problem of the wad decelerating through the shot column and disturbing the pattern.
I shoot muzzleloading shotguns during hunting season. There is a much discussed loading in MLing circles. It is called the “skychief load”. It produces very nice patterns in many shotguns. The load places a well lubricated cushion wad atop the shot charge in lieu of the traditional overshot card

mehavey · October 13, 2021, 06:56 AM

Quote:

well lubricated cushion wad atop the shot charge in lieu of the traditional overshot card

I'll have to try that with the Brown Bess at the skeet range.
[singles only]

bladesmith 1 · December 11, 2021, 11:54 AM

3/4oz load =s 533 shells per 25#s of shot. 1oz =s 400. If you shoot a lot it adds up in a hurry. About all I shoot is 3/4oz loads or my magnum 7/8 for trap [ all birds on edge ] . Not sure if I'm brave enough to try 1/2oz loads.

bladesmith 1 · December 22, 2021, 02:06 PM

That well lubed wad over the shot - not sure how that works. I tried some Circle Fly .062 OS cards in brass shells and got donut patterns - big hole in the middle. The idea behind the thicker OS card was you wouldn't need to glue them in brass cases. Even my old reprint of a Sears 1905 catalog recommends a very thin - .032 card for OS so patterns would not get the ol donut pattern. With shotgun shells, 82grs of 2F, a OP .135 card and a 1/2" cushion wad, there ain't a lot of room for shot and a thick lubed OS wad. I'm not saying it wouldn't work but I'd just rather stick to proven methods.

GE-Minigun · December 23, 2021, 11:05 AM

I would love to use this, but the additional time it would take to place the shot card in the wad would add too much time to the process. Wish Claybuster would make the wad...just need to increase the bump in the bottom of the 3/4oz wad

mehavey · December 23, 2021, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Let us know how a half ounce 12 gauge patterns and breaks targets compared to a .410

Actually better... but not for why you'd think.
I found that the 410 barrels -- being but half the diameter of the 12 -- gave me a false sense of leading the bird in deflection shots.

The proportionate size of the 410 relative to the bird said I was leading enough....

I wasn't....

.

FITASC · December 23, 2021, 12:55 PM

Add a few Cheerios in the bottom; honey nut leave a nice aroma in the air!

Eight_is_enough · December 26, 2021, 10:49 AM

It cannot be something the shot tube will jam down onto and get plugged with, while seating the wad.

I built a lot of 3/4 oz loads by sticking a dried bean down into the shot before moving to the pre-crimp station. Eventually got tired of the time required and just went with 7/8 oz.

Skeet rules do not allow shooting subgauge with a 12-ga shell, regardless of how little shot you put in.

mehavey · December 26, 2021, 07:59 PM

Quote:

shooting subgauge with a 12-ga shell, regardless of how little shot you put in.

Did the Poster mean to say that you can't shoot a super-gauge in a subgauge event ?

FITASC · December 27, 2021, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Quote:
shooting subgauge with a 12-ga shell, regardless of how little shot you put in.
Did the Poster mean to say that you can't shoot a super-gauge in a subgauge event ?

All games allow you to use a smaller bore size gun for competition in larger bore size events, but not the other way around. If I want to shoot 1 gun for everything, a 410 would be it. That said, shooting a 410 in 12, 20, and 28 gauge events does not tend to have the degree of success.

bladesmith 1 · February 24, 2022, 12:33 PM

Well I tried the 1/2oz loads with 15grs of 700X and they worked fine. Gave some to the guys shooting 5-stand and they really liked them. Guess I'll be ordering some 20ga wads seeing how I used all the old ones I had.

bladesmith 1 · March 9, 2022, 11:13 AM

On my Mec Jr after seating a plastic wad I inserted the fiber card and only used enough pressure to seat the fiber card, not wanting to have it pushed up into the 12ga drop tube. It only takes a couple of seconds. Compared to my 9000H I'm using something made in the dark ages, so what's another pull of the handle ?

darkgael · March 10, 2022, 07:42 AM

Blade: Agreed that there is not a whole lot of room left in a brass hull if you simply replace the OS card with the lubed wad.
Two things: the skychief loading was developed for muzzleloaders. No space problem there.
The other thing is that the Skychief eliminates the cushion wad between the powder and the shot. Did you try that? Should eliminate the space problem.
What brass hulls did you use?

bladesmith 1 · March 10, 2022, 02:45 PM

I was using 444 Marlin for 410 reloads and that shell is a bit shorter than a 410 shell.

October 5, 2021, 09:44 AM	#1
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,883	1/2-oz 12 Gauge (for the Search engines) Just playing on the skeet range for the last 9 months -- decide to take the shot weights down. Hodgdon & Lyman have good Load references, so I walked it down: 1⅛, 1.0, 7/8, 3/4, ... things shot so well-balanced with the 12ga Beretta O/U that I thought I'd take it down to duplicate where my Beretta 410 was as well -- only with better "mass" in swinging up/over on Low Gun. Only no data -- at all -- for 12Ga_½oz "The Internet" came up with just duplicating mid point 3/4 oz data for the components (AA/Fiocchi616/Claybuster-CB0175-12/700X/15gr), and putting a felt wad-spacer in the 3/4-oz shot cup. (Felt was more trouble than it's worth. I settled on using a 1/8" card) FailSafe -- same powder load, but lighter projectile. Worked/shot well over about a week-10 days Decided to save my 700X supply and look for other powder options. Hodgdon listed that same 3/4 oz load for 700X, Clays, and TiteWad. I had a coupla pounds of Clays. Same game: Mid 3/4 oz Loadout (16.9gr), but with lighter projectile (1/2 oz) AHEM: A bit of a surprise -- and had to walk it down... "quite a bit" Chronographs are your friend. WARNING: My Beretta/Shotgun, the exact components listed, and my dusty old (but still very reliable) Oehler-35. Your mileage may vary. Last edited by mehavey; October 5, 2021 at 09:50 AM.

October 5, 2021, 12:44 PM	#2
stinkeypete Senior Member Join Date: July 22, 2010 Location: Madison, Wisconsin Posts: 1,292	Very impressive work. Thank you for posting! Perhaps the most impressive thing is that you didn't shoot your chronograph with your shotgun. I've shot mine several times. The versatility of a shotgun continues to impress me, and reminds me why I keep that old single shot Stevens in my gun safe. From squirrel to deer, it can do it in a pinch. __________________ My book "The Pheasant Hunter's Action Adventure Cookbook" is now on Amazon. Tall tales, hunting tips, butchering from bird to the freezer, and recipes.

October 5, 2021, 06:02 PM	#4
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,883	The patterning board doesn't show big difference in 23yd/skeet chokes effect between the two Berettas (12/410) But the 12ga's mass is much more comfortable in swinging into/with the birds. Adding to the data tonight since I've now got to live w/ a dog's breakfast in primer stock: Relative/Probable peak pressure effect at far right: Last edited by mehavey; October 5, 2021 at 09:41 PM.

October 6, 2021, 10:37 AM	#5
MarkCO Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 1998 Location: Colorado, USA Posts: 4,307	Nice work. __________________ Good Shooting, MarkCO www.CarbonArms.us

October 6, 2021, 12:43 PM	#6
FITASC Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2014 Posts: 6,441	I can say that my 3/4oz 12 gauge loads absolutely crush targets when I tighten things up at least one constriction from what I would use with a 1oz load __________________ "I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa

October 5, 2021, 03:02 PM	#3
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,535	Interesting path of development. Let us know how a half ounce 12 gauge patterns and breaks targets compared to a .410.

October 6, 2021, 07:20 PM	#7
stuckinthe60s Senior Member Join Date: January 31, 2017 Location: Va., Ct., Mo.. Posts: 877	it seems like a lot of work. but hey, its the joy of being American, I guess. bravo. __________________ Retired Military Aviation Former Member Navy Shooting Team Distinguished Pistol Shot,NRA Shotgun/Pistol Instructor NSSA All American, Skeet/Trap Range Owner Last edited by stuckinthe60s; October 6, 2021 at 07:43 PM.

October 7, 2021, 08:48 AM	#8
Seedy Character Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2021 Location: SW Okla Posts: 201	I've loaded a lot of the 3/4 oz loads. Great for teaching young, small frame or recoil sensitive shooters. Great for Cowboy Action, too. Plus, the slight savings on shot and powder. I may have to give 1/2 oz a try

October 7, 2021, 10:19 AM	#9
FITASC Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2014 Posts: 6,441	Not slight savings, especially compared to a 1oz or 1-1/8oz load. The shot savings are substantial. The reduction in recoil lets me shoot 300-400 rounds in a day; even through my Beretta gas guns __________________ "I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa

October 7, 2021, 10:32 AM	#10
FITASC Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2014 Posts: 6,441	OP- I wonder if it would be easier to place the filler cards over the shot instead of under? __________________ "I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa

October 7, 2021, 03:51 PM	#11
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,883	Actually, just dropping the card into the shot cup, and then seating the shot cup as normal followed by shot drop, seems the simplest method. Produces normal crimp. Also, doesn't leave anything in front of the shot column to decelerate back through the pattern as things exit the muzzle.

October 12, 2021, 10:23 PM	#12
darkgael Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2006 Location: Homes in Brooklyn, NY and in Pennsylvania. Posts: 5,473	Food for thought about the wad placed atop the shot and the possible problem of the wad decelerating through the shot column and disturbing the pattern. I shoot muzzleloading shotguns during hunting season. There is a much discussed loading in MLing circles. It is called the “skychief load”. It produces very nice patterns in many shotguns. The load places a well lubricated cushion wad atop the shot charge in lieu of the traditional overshot card __________________ “Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games.” Ernest Hemingway ... NRA Life Member

December 11, 2021, 11:54 AM	#14
bladesmith 1 Senior Member Join Date: July 14, 2018 Posts: 240	3/4oz load =s 533 shells per 25#s of shot. 1oz =s 400. If you shoot a lot it adds up in a hurry. About all I shoot is 3/4oz loads or my magnum 7/8 for trap [ all birds on edge ] . Not sure if I'm brave enough to try 1/2oz loads.

December 22, 2021, 02:06 PM	#15
bladesmith 1 Senior Member Join Date: July 14, 2018 Posts: 240	That well lubed wad over the shot - not sure how that works. I tried some Circle Fly .062 OS cards in brass shells and got donut patterns - big hole in the middle. The idea behind the thicker OS card was you wouldn't need to glue them in brass cases. Even my old reprint of a Sears 1905 catalog recommends a very thin - .032 card for OS so patterns would not get the ol donut pattern. With shotgun shells, 82grs of 2F, a OP .135 card and a 1/2" cushion wad, there ain't a lot of room for shot and a thick lubed OS wad. I'm not saying it wouldn't work but I'd just rather stick to proven methods.

December 23, 2021, 11:05 AM	#16
GE-Minigun Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2008 Posts: 240	I would love to use this, but the additional time it would take to place the shot card in the wad would add too much time to the process. Wish Claybuster would make the wad...just need to increase the bump in the bottom of the 3/4oz wad

December 23, 2021, 12:55 PM	#18
FITASC Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2014 Posts: 6,441	Add a few Cheerios in the bottom; honey nut leave a nice aroma in the air! __________________ "I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa

December 26, 2021, 10:49 AM	#19
Eight_is_enough Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2013 Posts: 168	It cannot be something the shot tube will jam down onto and get plugged with, while seating the wad. I built a lot of 3/4 oz loads by sticking a dried bean down into the shot before moving to the pre-crimp station. Eventually got tired of the time required and just went with 7/8 oz. Skeet rules do not allow shooting subgauge with a 12-ga shell, regardless of how little shot you put in.

February 24, 2022, 12:33 PM	#22
bladesmith 1 Senior Member Join Date: July 14, 2018 Posts: 240	Well I tried the 1/2oz loads with 15grs of 700X and they worked fine. Gave some to the guys shooting 5-stand and they really liked them. Guess I'll be ordering some 20ga wads seeing how I used all the old ones I had.

March 9, 2022, 11:13 AM	#23
bladesmith 1 Senior Member Join Date: July 14, 2018 Posts: 240	On my Mec Jr after seating a plastic wad I inserted the fiber card and only used enough pressure to seat the fiber card, not wanting to have it pushed up into the 12ga drop tube. It only takes a couple of seconds. Compared to my 9000H I'm using something made in the dark ages, so what's another pull of the handle ?

March 10, 2022, 07:42 AM	#24
darkgael Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2006 Location: Homes in Brooklyn, NY and in Pennsylvania. Posts: 5,473	Blade: Agreed that there is not a whole lot of room left in a brass hull if you simply replace the OS card with the lubed wad. Two things: the skychief loading was developed for muzzleloaders. No space problem there. The other thing is that the Skychief eliminates the cushion wad between the powder and the shot. Did you try that? Should eliminate the space problem. What brass hulls did you use? __________________ “Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games.” Ernest Hemingway ... NRA Life Member

March 10, 2022, 02:45 PM	#25
bladesmith 1 Senior Member Join Date: July 14, 2018 Posts: 240	I was using 444 Marlin for 410 reloads and that shell is a bit shorter than a 410 shell.