International, Universal, Clays being Phased Out

[steve4102]

http://www.adi-powders.com.au/handloaders/news.asp

Dear Reloader,

Australian Munitions is making some changes to the way we manufacture our pistol and shotgun powders. These changes are necessary to ensure that we can sustainably manufacture these products for many years to come. We are making changes to both the manufacturing process and formulation of the powders, in order to sustain the manufacturability and throughput of the Australian Shotgun (AS) and Australian Pistol (AP) series powders.

The result of this change will be a new series of powders that will give our customers the performance excellence you have come to expect from ADI powders in both shotgun and pistol applications. This new series of powders will be called the APS series of powders, starting with APS35 that will replace AS30N(Clays), and APS45 that will replace both AS50N(International Clays) and AP50N. You will see these powders start appearing on the shelves after May this year, and we will be making reloading data available for them on our website and in the 2015 edition of our reloading manual, which will be released in May. Our development of APS-series powders to replace AP70N(Universal Clays) is well under way, but we will continue to supply AP70N throughout 2015 until the new powder is ready for release. AP100 manufacture is not affected by these changes, as it is manufactured differently.

Apparently General Dynamics is not the only Powder manufacturer that is phasing out the "Old" technology powders.

[rclark]

I'll miss the Universal Clays. Really liked that powder ... when I could find it!

[Tony C]

My understanding is that Hodgdon's Clays is NOT the same as Universal Clays, am I correct in understanding they are different powders made by different manufacturers, and not two names for the same powder?

[Hammerhead]

Same maker, different powders.
Universal Clays (similar to Unique) has been renamed Universal to reduce confusion.
Clays (similar to Bullseye) is still Clays.

I used to love Clays and will miss it, but Bullseye is a good substitute and is readily available, N310 also when I can find it.

[Will-j]

OKAAAAY, HAMMER: It's late......My meds haven't kicked-in yet..so please bear with me.. HODGDON's UNIVERSAL.....[IS] or [IS NOT] affected?

WILL

[steve4102]

Originally Posted by Will-j

OKAAAAY, HAMMER: It's late......My meds haven't kicked-in yet..so please bear with me.. HODGDON's UNIVERSAL.....[IS] or [IS NOT] affected?

WILL

Yes, Hodgdon Universal IS affected.

Hodgdon sells three powder in the "Clays" line-up.

Clays.

International Clays, Or simply International

Universal Clays, or simply Universal.

From Hodgdon's web site.

Clean burning powders meet your needs.
Titewad™, Clays™, International Clays™, Universal Clays™, TiteGroup™, HP38™, HS6™, LongShot™, H110™, Lil'Gun™

http://www.hodgdon.com/hodgdon.html

...and here.

CLAYS®
CLAYS™
Introduced in January, 1992, CLAYS gunpowder has "taken the clay target world by storm". It is the cleanest burning , most consistent 12 ga. 7/8., 1 oz. and 1 1/8 oz. powder available today, the preferred choice of competitive target shooters.. The superb burning characteristics of this powder produce soft, smooth recoil and excellent patterns. These features transfer directly to handgun applications where target shooting is the main goal. 45 ACP and 38 Special are only two of the cartridges where CLAYS gunpowder provides "tack driving" target accuracy with flawless functioning. Available in 14 oz., 4 lb. & 8 lb. containers.


INTERNATIONAL®
INTERNATIONAL CLAYS™
INTERNATIONAL gunpowder is the second in the "CLAYS" gunpowder series of powders, bringing this technology to the 20 gauge reloader. It also works in 12 ga., 2 3/4" light, medium and heavy 1 1/8 oz. loads, and high velocity 1 oz. As with CLAYS gunpowder, clean burning and flawless functioning is the rule. Available in 14 oz., 4 lb. & 8 lb. containers.

UNIVERSAL®
UNIVERSAL CLAYS™
UNIVERSAL gunpowder handles the broadest spectrum of cartridges for both pistol and shotgun. This is the Clays gunpowder technology designed for 28 gauge shooters. From the 25 ACP to the 44 magnum and 28 gauge to 12 gauge, UNIVERSAL CLAYS gunpowder provides outstanding performance. As with all the "CLAYS" gunpowder series powders, clean burning and uniformity are part of its attributes. Available in 1 lb., 4 lb. & 8 lb. containers.

http://www.hodgdon.com/shotpist.html

[g.willikers]

Dang.
Clays is so clean burning.
While the other, older standby choices still work, they are so much dirtier.
Oh well, as long as we don't have to revert to rotary phones and dial up internet........

[Shotgun Slim]

Alliant Clay Dot has shown me that it is a fine replacement for Clays in my light pistol loads-meters maybe a little better,burns clean,costs less and can be found( I see 8 lb kegs for less than $120.00). Haven't tried it in my clay target loads yet but I think it will be ok.

[mmb713]

Glad I picked up eight pounds of Universal when I had the chance. I'll try ADI's replacement when they're gone. I'm sure it will work just as well. Hopefully Hodgdon has learned their lesson with the Clays series naming fiasco and won't repeat anything like that. There are plenty of people out there that still don't get it. Not having to read another forum thread explaining how to read a label on a bottle of powder ever again will be worth having to work up new loads.

[Will-j]

Not even 5 Min. ago. I got off the phone with Dave [Campbell] at HODGDON, and he says the RUMOR that INTERNATIONAL, CLAYS, and UNIVERSAL are NOT being discontinued and are, in fact, now being distributed to dealers shelves.

I think he should know what is going on with their powders.

WILL.

[steve4102]

Not even 5 Min. ago. I got off the phone with Dave [Campbell] at HODGDON, and he says the RUMOR that INTERNATIONAL, CLAYS, and UNIVERSAL are NOT being discontinued and are, in fact, now being distributed to dealers shelves.

I think he should know what is going on with their powders.

You would think, but it is clear that he is either trying to practice damage control or he actually doesn't have a clue what the Manufacturer of these powders has in store.

Here is the link again.

http://www.adi-powders.com.au/handloaders/news.asp

This link above is from the Manufacturer of the "Clays" line of powders. They say they are being phased out and even supply the names of the NEW powders that are replacing "Clays".

If anybody is going to know "their powders" it is going to be those that manufacture them.

ADI also posted a correction to their announcement that Clays is being phased out.

CORRECTION of notice regarding ADI Pistol and Shotgun powders

31 March 2015

Dear Reloader,

On 16 March, Australian Munitions released a notice regarding future developments in ADI Pistol and Shotgun powders. The notice incorrectly stated that the new range of APS powders will be phased in from May this year (2015).

The new range of APS powders will be phased in from May 2016. Until then, Australian Munitions will produce enough AS30N, AS50N, AP50N and AP70N to ensure that the forecast needs of our Australian reloading customers can be met. In addition to this, we will produce adequate stocks of these powders to allow for a period of around one year where both ranges (APS and AS/AP powders) will be available.

Australian Munitions apologises for this error, it was simply a matter of human error in getting the date wrong.

[Will-j]

Well, Steve...Since you put it that way............ There DOES SEEM TO BE either a total lack of communication between Manufacturer/Distributer, and/or outright prevarication on the part of some employees, [though] I would rather feel more like assuming terminological inexactitude might be a better definition of what is happening.

Either way....I'll be looking to stock up on 231/HP38 and.....Unique and/or Universal.

When it's put in print...It's rather hard to refute. Although it is disappointing to find [that] those supposedly in the Know.....[Don't Really].

WILL

[Sevens]

It certainly is disappointing to find that... but it is a million miles from new, rare, or surprising. It almost seems like the "new normal."

I have detailed elsewhere on this site about my interactions with a S&W factory rep (wearing the issued collared and logo'd shirt, who traveled to the event, paid by the company to represent them at a table for the specific purpose of interacting with the buying public on the subject of S&W products) who was 100% clueless and mystified on the very existence of the the S&W 10xx series of pistols made over a four year span to the volume of over 50,000 units and one HUGE and widely publicized FBI contract and a minimum of three State Police contracts just a mere 15 years before I attempted to have a discussion of them with him.

Wasn't much of a discussion and I can't even call it a lesson because he was about half totally uninterested and half perhaps thinking I was making it all up.

[FITASC]

Does not matter what the distributor wants, it is about what the maker decides to make, and hodgdon has no say in that regard .

[steve4102]

Will,
when you talked to Dave at Hodgdon, did you mention the ADI Web Site posting?

If so, how did he respond to a "Black-n-White" straight from the manufacturer?

[Average Joe]

Wasn't life much simpler when there was only Black Powder....

[rclark]

Yep! And even when there was just Unique, 2400, and Bullseye.... That said, it is way simpler today because you can't find ANY pistol powder on the shelf around here!! . But I can find 777 at least in some stores.

[Will-j]

Steve: At the time, I wasn't even aware of the ATI posting. I went through the site numerous times before I hit on the posting itself. Every time I clicked on the pistol powder line, it stayed right there and I couldn't pull up the bulletin until after reading your post. But...I DID tell Dave that more than just a few folks on the forums were saying that they had seen and read where the three powders were definitely being discontinued, and......Well, you've read my post of the conversation with him, as well as the recent one where he dismisses the discontinuance of 231/HP38 as pure rumor. Go figure.

WILL

[Mike Irwin]

Crap.

I use Universal for my .45 Colt.

I guess I'd better hit a gunshow and pick up another bottle or two.

[Sevens]

^It's as scarce as hen's teeth. W231 is easier to find than Hodgdon Universal.

The Clays series of powders were the ones missing for more than a year simply due to the fire at the production facility. So when it comes to finding Universal, it's not just the powder drought due to the nutty market, it's the fact that they simply didn't ship ANY of the stuff for more than a year.

[jwrowland77]

Glad I still have a 4# jug of Universal. May hold on to it for awhile.

[Unclenick]

The Clays series stopped shipping because ADI had a fire that destroyed the drier used in their AP series. I don't know the cause of the fire, but if it was something to do with the manufacturing process, that would be a good reason to change that process.

It is not uncommon for powder manufacturers to change suppliers to make a powder to a particular specification. But it doesn't usually come out exactly the same when they do. Accurate had a warning up when they were no longer able to source Nitro 100 from the same supplier, and now have Nitro 100 NF (New Formulation) and had to put all new load data together for it. QuickLOAD has no powder models for the IMR SR series or 700X or 800X because, Hartmut Broemel (QuickLOAD's author) told me they have changed these powders frequently enough in the past that no model he could include would accurately cover what some handloaders still have in stock from the past, so he considers it unsafe.

I expect ADI will do a good job of working out the new substitutes and that they will likely burn cleanly, too, as that was a big element of their popularity. What Hodgdon will do about a naming convention, I don't know. They might even keep the old names. That would be unfortunate if it happens, but it might explain the denial that the powders will be phased out.

Hodgdon has also denied that GD is making IMR powder process changes. I'm now inclined to take that with a grain of salt.

Clays, incidentally, is not like Bullseye. It's faster. It's closer to Vihtavuori N310 and Norma R1 in burn rate. Like those other two powders, the charge weights needed to reach a particular pressure are lower than they are for Bullseye, so please don't try a swap out of one for the other. With 230 grain ball in .45 Auto, it takes 4 grains of Clays to reach about the same pressure 5 grains of Bullseye does. The resulting velocity is lower because less total gas quantity is being made.