Dumb ?: Once SBR, can sell as rifle?

[wild cat mccane]

Hey there,

If you receive your form for a SBR, can you:
1) switch short and full uppers at anytime while you own it?
2) then put a full length upper on it and sell it as a normal rifle without anything required?

Thank you

[TrueBlue711]

I'm not an expert, so don't take my post as gospel. I'm just taking a logical guess actually. For question one, I would say yes, you can swap uppers at your heart's content under your ownership. However, even with a 16" upper on it, the ATF would still look at it as an SBR since the serial number on the lower is on the SBR form.
So for question two, I don't think you can sell it to another individual unless they apply for the SBR paperwork too. I think the serial number on your lower is forever considered an SBR in the ATF's eyes.

[ttarp]

1. Yes, but its still considered an SBR even with a 16" or longer barrel.

2. No, the lower is still registered as an SBR and must be sold as such unless removed from the NFA registry.

3. Someone more knowledgeable than me will probably tell me I'm wrong, and then we can both learn something.

[raimius]

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...e-an-nfa-item/

If it is not in NFA configuration, and the owner cannot configure it into NFA form, it is treated as a non-NFA firearm. That said, you can also send a letter to the ATF asking it to be removed from the registry, just to be sure.

[Mobuck]

Why would you pay the $200 to register as an SBR and then sell the stamped part at common market value? I know there are folks who consider $200 as just a night on the town but you're still responsible for securing the NFA part(?).

This leads to another question for the NFA crowd. Once you have a stamped part, don't you have to "account" for it if checked by BATFE?

[wild cat mccane]

If I privately sold a SBR, I am not sure the $200 would be worth the trouble of finding out how to sell to a SBR to someone

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by ttarp

2. No, the lower is still registered as an SBR and must be sold as such unless removed from the NFA registry.

This is not correct. The answer to both the OP's questions is, "Yes".

An SBR is not considered an SBR unless it's actually currently in SBR configuration. Therefore, an owner of an SBR can simply re-configure it into a normal Title I configuration and sell it as a normal Title I rifle. (Obviously, since the rifle was transferred as a regular rifle, the new owner couldn't re-configure it as an SBR without filing a Form 1.) However, keep in mind that the ATF requests that you notify them via letter that you removed your SBR from the registry, and it's definitely a good idea to do that.

[EDIT: I'm referring to federal laws here. Most states just follow federal laws when it comes to NFA firearms, but check your state and local laws to be sure you're not breaking any of those.]

Check out section 2.5 from the ATF's NFA handbook:

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/at...ter-2/download

"Firearms, except machineguns and silencers, that are subject to the NFA fall within the various definitions due to specific features. If the particular feature that causes a firearm to be regulated by the NFA is eliminated or modified, the resulting weapon is no longer an NFA weapon.

For example, a shotgun with a barrel length of 15 inches is an NFA weapon. If the 15- inch barrel is removed and disposed of, the remaining firearm is not subject to the NFA because it has no barrel. Likewise, if the 15 inch barrel is modified by permanently attaching an extension such that the barrel length is at least 18 inches and the overall length of the weapon is at least 26 inches, the modified firearm is not subject to the NFA."

[ttarp]

Thanks for the education, sounds like the only difficult part might be finding someone to buy a lower thats been engraved.

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by Mobuck

This leads to another question for the NFA crowd. Once you have a stamped part, don't you have to "account" for it if checked by BATFE?

No. There are no "checks" on NFA items by the ATF, that's a myth. It probably comes from the fact that an FFL dealer can have his premises audited by the ATF, but that's not true for non-dealers.

Sure, I suppose the ATF could knock on your door and ask to check your NFA items if they wanted to, but you could also say no and then tell them to get the heck off your porch. At that point they'd need probable cause or a warrant to enter your house, just like any other law enforcement officer would.

[44 AMP]

No. There are no "checks" on NFA items by the ATF, that's a myth. It probably comes from the fact that an FFL dealer can have his premises audited by the ATF, but that's not true for non-dealers.

Sure, I suppose the ATF could knock on your door and ask to check your NFA items if they wanted to, but you could also say no and then tell them to get the heck off your porch. At that point they'd need probable cause or a warrant to enter your house, just like any other law enforcement officer would.

I'm not an NFA item owner, if you are, I'll take your word for what the ATF is currently doing. I have heard that in the past, machinegun owners were subject to a yearly "compliance inspection. This is not the same as the FFL's inspection, which can be unannounced (once a year), the compliance inspection is scheduled in advance, and is to ensure that still have your machinegun, and your license, and that they both match what the ATF has on file saying you have. I "heard" that, for a long, long time (pre computers) the ATF's civilian registry was a rolodex, and "disgruntled" agents had been known to remove cards and dispose of them. So, it was entirely possible some people had legally owned and registered machineguns that the ATF no longer knew about. The Compliance checks weren't meant to catch people breaking the law, they were an attempt to FIX the ATF's bad record keeping. Or so I heard.

Now that everything is on computer, they may not do them anymore. I don't know. If you know for sure, enlighten us, please.

"Firearms, except machineguns and silencers, that are subject to the NFA fall within the various definitions due to specific features. If the particular feature that causes a firearm to be regulated by the NFA is eliminated or modified, the resulting weapon is no longer an NFA weapon.

This makes me wonder, does the ATF treat the different NFA items differently in this regard?? For a long time, they have taken the stance that "once a machine gun, ALWAYS a machine gun" Unless the weapon was de-activated. Removing the full auto parts from a select fire rifle did NOT allow it to be sold as a semi auto, it was still (and always would be - so they said) a registered full auto. SO is this a change in that policy? Or is it that the ATF allows short barrel guns and silenced guns to be "regular" guns once those parts are removed, but NOT machine guns???

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

I'm not an NFA item owner, if you are, I'll take your word for what the ATF is currently doing.

Well, I do have seven tax stamps, but I'll be the first to admit that doesn't give me any special knowledge on this subject. I've met many NFA owners who didn't have a clue how the NFA worked.

No, my bona fides (as Spats would put it) are that I spent 5 years managing at two different high-volume FFL/SOTs in WA before I moved to PA last month. Both shops I worked at sold hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of NFA items each year; mostly silencers, but plenty of SBRs and even a few AOWs here and there. I've had lots of dealings with the ATF, mostly through compliance inspections. I've also talked a lot with lawyers from Northwest Gun Law Group and with the Second Amendment Foundation (the former provided most of the staff and customers of my second shop with NFA trusts, and the latter had offices located nearby my first shop and some of them would come by quite often).

But my caveats are (as Spats would also put it) that I'm not an expert in the NFA, I just know a lot more about it than the average gun owner. Also, I was never an FFL holder myself and I wasn't the one ultimately in charge of compliance, so someone like Dogtown Tom is more knowledgeable than I am on those issues. And my experience only goes back to 2012 and it was all in a state where machine guns are illegal.

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

I have heard that in the past, machinegun owners were subject to a yearly "compliance inspection. This is not the same as the FFL's inspection, which can be unannounced (once a year), the compliance inspection is scheduled in advance, and is to ensure that still have your machinegun, and your license, and that they both match what the ATF has on file saying you have.

I'm not aware of any mechanism in federal law that makes it legal for the ATF to inspect any of your NFA items without your permission (here's an article by a gun lawyer on the subject, and there are many other articles by legal experts all over the Internet saying the same thing).

I'd be willing to bet that those compliance inspections you refer to follow along my example I gave in the second paragraph of post #9: I'll bet they were ultimately voluntary or were an abuse of power by the ATF.

Maybe some of those machine gun owners didn't realize the ATF had no legal right to require such an inspection, or maybe they simply wanted to go along with the ATF because they had nothing to hide. Or maybe the ATF used questionable strong-arm tactics to conduct those inspections (if I recall, the ATF didn't have the best reputation back in the 90s in that regard).

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

Now that everything is on computer, they may not do them anymore. I don't know. If you know for sure, enlighten us, please.

I have many friends, coworkers, and acquaintances who own NFA items, and I've personally sold thousands of NFA items over the years, with the rest of the staff at the shops I worked at selling many thousands more. I've never once heard of any of those NFA owners being contacted by the ATF to check on their NFA items. So if the ATF is conducting NFA inspections and relying on owners to voluntarily allow access to their NFA items, it's not anything I've ever heard of. But like I said, my experience is only since 2012 and it was in a non-machine gun state.

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

This makes me wonder, does the ATF treat the different NFA items differently in this regard?? For a long time, they have taken the stance that "once a machine gun, ALWAYS a machine gun" Unless the weapon was de-activated. Removing the full auto parts from a select fire rifle did NOT allow it to be sold as a semi auto, it was still (and always would be - so they said) a registered full auto. SO is this a change in that policy? Or is it that the ATF allows short barrel guns and silenced guns to be "regular" guns once those parts are removed, but NOT machine guns???

I'm not aware of any change in the policy, I just think the ATF has always taken a different tone when it comes to machine guns. Though I'm definitely not an expert when it comes to the history of the ATF's enforcement of the NFA (especially when it comes to machine guns), so I'd be interested to hear from someone with more knowledge than I have on the subject.

[wild cat mccane]

Final question.

If I go SBR route, what in the world is the engraving requirement and how do you get it done?

[Theohazard]

Here you go:

https://johnpierceesq.com/what-are-t...g-on-a-form-1/

The caliber is almost certainly already engraved on the barrel, and the serial number should already be engraved on the lower. So 99.99% of the time, all you have to do is engrave your information on the lower. That would either be your trust name, or your name, and location. For example, it would either say, "John Smith, Anytown, PA", or "John Smith NFA Gun Trust, Anytown, PA".

The engraving can be done at any time so long as it's engraved before you put it together. Also, you don't have to engrave the lower, but that makes the most sense if you want to easily swap out uppers.

[wild cat mccane]

What type of company offers this service? Any metal shop? Do people send these to a company? Can you do it yourself somehow?

Thanks

[Theohazard]

Anyone can do it who has an engraving machine. Or even if they don't have an engraving machine. There's a guy on THR who used a dremel on his Form 1 SBRs. It looks terrible but he doesn't seem to care.

Some gun shops have high-end engravers that really look awesome. Some have low-end engravers that look mediocre or bad. And some people go to jewelers or engraving shops to have theirs done. I'd check local forums and ask around if I were you. Or call your local shops, they might have suggestions.

[precision_shooter]

The engraving requirement would make it hard to sell.
The registered firearm has to be engraved with the name the she stamp is approved for along with the city and state.
My str is under my trust so it's XYZ Trust City, State

This is done to "prevent" selling or transferring it to another individual, company, or trust.

And you DO have to engrave the lower as that is the registered "firearm" and cannot be sold.

You can sell the upper as a pistol upper, legally and swap out any upper you want onto the registered lower.

[DubC-Hicks]

So what happens if I get my lower engraved "John Smith. Detroit, MI", but then I move to Lansing at another time? It doesn't need re-engraved with a move does it?

[precision_shooter]

It does not have to be re-engraved, if moving within the same state. I Believe you have to have the city and state re-engraved as well as the form updated if moving to another state.
But I would search atf website or google to find the answer from atf

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by precision_shooter

This is done to "prevent" selling or transferring it to another individual, company, or trust.

No, that's not the reason for engraving it. There are no restrictions on selling or transferring a Form 1 SBR that don't apply to selling or transferring any other SBR. And, like I pointed out previously, you can sell it like a regular rifle if you put a 16" barrel on it, engraving and all.

The only reason engraving it would make it hard to sell is if the prospective buyer just didn't like having someone else's info engraved on their gun.

Originally Posted by precision_shooter

And you DO have to engrave the lower as that is the registered "firearm" and cannot be sold.

No, you don't have to engrave your name and location on the lower, and yes, you can sell it.

You can engrave the barrel, frame, or receiver, per the ATF.

And it can be sold just like any other SBR if it's in SBR form, or it can be sold like a regular rifle if it has a 16" barrel on it. Or you could just take it apart and sell the lower as a receiver.

Originally Posted by precision_shooter

You can sell the upper as a pistol upper, legally

Legally, there is no such thing as a "pistol upper" as far as the feds are concerned. It doesn't matter if the buyer is using it on his AR pistol or not, just so long as he doesn't use it to make an illegal SBR, or store it along with the parts required to make an illegal SBR in such a way that would get him charged with constructive possession.

Originally Posted by precision_shooter

It does not have to be re-engraved, if moving within the same state. I Believe you have to have the city and state re-engraved as well as the form updated if moving to another state.

No, it does not have to be re-engraved, even if it was sold to someone else on a Form 4. The only way it would ever need to be re-engraved is if it was removed from the registry and sold to someone else as a regular receiver or rifle, and then that new owner decided to re-register it into an SBR on a Form 1; only then would it have to be engraved again with the maker's name (or trust name) and location.

When you move with an SBR, all you need to do is submit a Form 5320.20 if it's an interstate move.

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by precision_shooter

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." - Thomas Jefferson, 1776

And I also should point out that the quote in your signature is not originally from Thomas Jefferson. It's a quote from an essay by the Italian author Cesare Beccaria.

https://www.monticello.org/site/jeff...-armsquotation

[wild cat mccane]

Final question.

Without a suppressor, does a 8" or 10" 300 Blackout pistol do anything well?

Looking at the velocity numbers for 556, it doesn't look like that serves a real purpose for me, but I am unsure on the 300.

Thanks

[Theohazard]

Supersonic 300 Blackout is still pretty effective out of a short barrel, it loses less velocity out of a short barrel than a 5.56 does:



If you need an SBR or AR pistol with a really short barrel that still gives you the power of an intermediate rifle round, 300 BO isn't a bad choice. That said, there are other calibers that do it better, albeit with more conversion parts required.

But I'm referring to supersonic ammo here. If you're not using a silencer, there's no reason to use subsonic ammo. Subsonic 300 BO ammo performs worse in every way than supersonic ammo, it's just a lot quieter when using a silencer.

[wild cat mccane]

For a newbie, that means a 10" barrel 300BO using supersonic rounds is effective? This newbie thinks seems like very fast 9mm territory with an equivalently weighted bullet...

[Theohazard]

I'm not aware of any 9mm load that can reach a muzzle velocity of 2173 FPS and make 1153 ft/lbs of muzzle energy out of any barrel length. But if there was one, keep in mind that the BC of a 300 BO bullet gives you far better range than any 9mm bullet does.