Traditions Deerhunter kit basketcase, and additional frustration...

[FrankenMauser]

My 20 year-old Traditions Hawken Woodsman .54 made its way back to me after long-term possession by a family member.
Long story short, the barrel is toast.

At the time of discovering that, I had a muzzleloader hunt in just over three weeks. I called Traditions to attempt to get a barrel. No dice.

So, I picked up a Deerhunter .50 kit as a quick bandaid to get me by.
Best case: I can drop the Deerhunter barrel, with the better Hawken sights, in the Hawken stock (with double-set triggers) and roll with it.
Less desirable: I have to build the kit and use the Deerhunter as designed.
Worst case: I borrowed another Hawken Woodsman .54. But I don't like using other people's BP arms.


The Deerhunter barrel will, in fact, drop right into a Hawken stock. But the thimble screw holes are all wrong for the bottom rib from the Hawken and the die-cast Deerhunter thimble is too tall for the Hawken stock. I could drill and tap to adapt, but I don't have an appropriate bottoming tap. Not happening.

Gonna have to build the Deerhunter as designed.


Except that's not possible, either.
I won't even get into cosmetic or cost-cutting issues -- just the ridiculous:

The stock was inletted too deeply for the tang.
The front and rear sight screw holes are drilled but not tapped.
The sight screws, themselves, are almost 1/8" too long for the application - if the holes were actually tapped.
The thimble is for a round barrel, not the provided octagon barrel, and fits about as well as Merle Haggard at a Black Panther party.
The thimble screws are also too long and the holes are not tapped.
And, to top it all off, the trigger assembly is bound up with paint and the crappy spring keeps falling out (it's supposed to be staked in).

So, I called Traditions again.
Their response was essentially, "Some fitting is usually required."
I pressed a bit more, dwelling on the untapped holes and bad inletting, to get the point across.
Finally, the guy that I was talking to agreed to send a trigger assembly, but told me he'd have to check on the barrel and screws, and get back to me after about 15 minutes. "It may be better to send a complete kit." Ya think...?

Forty five minutes later, still no call. So, I called them. Closed for the weekend! I checked the website for their hours, and found that they closed just two minutes after I got off the phone with the guy in their Support department.


So, on to the worst case, the borrowed Hawken Woodsman .54...
Yea...
I looked at it closely, and called the owner. It didn't look healthy.
During the conversation I hear, "Oh, crap! I think we took the muzzleloaders out in June, and we never cleaned them."
Yea, it looks like death in that barrel...

[Crankylove]

I have my .54 Deerstalker that will meet Idaho's regs if you want to borrow it.

[rodwhaincamo]

A real crappy kit!

And backed into a corner with little time. Sounds as though you'll need to borrow a rifle unless you just outright buy one ready to go.

The Deerstalker is a nice enough rifle (mine is .50 cal). I'm not sure I care for the fiber optic sights though. Lyman sells barrels too.

[FrontierGander]

Kits involve work. If you needed one ready to go, you should have spent the extra $30 for one.

Check out this kit that I did, it wasn't just a slap it together and go kind of kit.
http://www.frontiermuzzleloading.com...s-hawken-build
Another,
http://www.frontiermuzzleloading.com...stol-kit-build

[FrankenMauser]

Kits involve work. If you needed one ready to go, you should have spent the extra $30 for one.

I appreciate the links, but this isn't my first rodeo ... err ... kit.

There are different types of kits.
I know, very well, the different "difficulty levels" involved.

This situation with Traditions isn't about the work. It's about the crappy product and terrible service.

The Traditions Deerhunter is NOT a "drill and tap your own holes, remake the thimble, find your own screws, and re-engineer and rebuild the trigger assembly" kind of kit...
It is, quite literally, intended to be a "slap it together and go make some smoke" kind of kit ... with minor fitting occasionally.


I'm no stranger to custom parts, custom fitting, inletting, drilling, tapping, shaping, polishing, finishing/re-finishing, cutting, crowning, and even designing and making parts from scratch. I understand the game well. (Though I don't talk about it much on this forum, I spend most of my "gun time" customizing and/or resurrecting old Marlin rifles.)

But this kit is not intended to be a labor of love, and months-long project. It's meant to be an 'entry-level' option for people to make smoke. Their own instructions indicate that no modification should be required, except for fitting the barrel tenon, maybe 'kissing' the breech plug hook for a better fit, and possibly inletting parts into the stock; and that the whole project should only take a couple days, even with proper polishing and bluing of the metal, and finishing the stock with Tru-Oil [Traditions seems to be tied closely to Birchwood-Casey, based on all the references to B-C products].
Traditions screwed the pooch on this one -- possibly just for me; possibly for others, as well.

[gwpercle]

How about trying to salvage the uncleaned barrel. You know the old routine of scrubbing with bore brush, wrapped with 0000 steel wool and coater with JB bore Paste until your arms get tired....then doing it again and again.....I once encountered a military rifle with a barrel that looked like the insides a sewer pipe. The above treatment, 4 or 5 times , with overnight soakings (I plugged the bore and filled it) with first Kroil and next with Evapo-Rust , allthough still dark in the barrel , it shot surprisingly well , good enough for deer hunting.
And if you are handy , a lead lap can be poured and with lapping compound used as a final treatment and just might get the barrel shootable again.
I didn't use the lap on mine because it shot well after the brush/steel wool/JB bore paste and soaking treatments. Nothing to loose.
Good luck !
Gary

[Hawg]

I have seen some badly pitted barrels turn in some pretty good groups.

[FrankenMauser]

This one is too far gone.
It might, maybe could be turned into a smooth-bore, but the rust is very severe at about the 18" point - having completely eaten the lands and caused severe pitting and scale much deeper than the groves.

My initial thought was lapping. But closer inspection revealed that it wouldn't do any good.

[Hanshi]

I'm somewhat surprised at the Deerhunter problems. I received a Deerhunter (finished rifle) as a birthday gift in 1991. I used it and took quite a few deer over the next 24 years. I found it accurate and reliable. The stock was wood as was the ramrod. I later traded it to a builder as partial payment for a similar size custom youth's rifle.

[4V50 Gary]

The reason why Trinidad State has its first year bench metal gonne smithing students build the Traditions Trapper is that it is a POS. They wanted us to have a hard time with the kit and many of us did.

I had to redrill the ramrod hole as drilled offset. I unitized the barrel and tang and inletted it as a unit, then when they were separated, the barrel didn't sit right. Had to reinlet it again. The brass trigger guard is magneticable (TSJC word) and is not all brass. Gawd what an awful brass like alloy. The Trapper is plain ugly. Because of the location of the ramrod channel, you cannot slim down all the extra wood between the lockplate and the trigger guard. It's just too tall and locks awkward. You cannot make the Trapper pretty. While I did a bit of a shadowline around the lock, it's still very ugly.

Lesson: Say no to Traditions kits.

[FrankenMauser]

Ramrod offset - Check!
Die-cast trigger assembly - Steeluminum? (It's garbage.)
Bad inletting - Check!
Bad springs - Check!
...And much more.

Definitely regretting the purchase.



I did, however, decide to try to make the best of the situation, with the risk of Traditions telling me to 'eat it', due to the modifications, when I call on Monday. I needed to get something moving, or give up on the upcoming season.

I borrowed a bottoming tap that matched the screws, and tapped the holes for the sights and thimble. I have no idea what it is. No markings on the tap, but it worked. Thank god for machinists that are understanding gun freaks, and that I recently sent a wad of cash that guy's way for some custom gun parts.

I drilled the trigger pin hole oversized and re-pinned it with a matching roll pin.

Then I redesigned the spring for the trigger and bent one up out of music wire - using the center of the trigger roll pin to locate it, and the stock to retain it, rather than the incredibly stupid and unreliable stake-in-a-groove method Traditions employed.

The rear sight was borrowed from the Hawken barrel, as it had the right screws, tightened down properly, and had enough elevation to work with the front sight adaptation(s).

The front sight and thimble were shimmed with folded lead sheet, to avoid shortening the screws, just yet.

And the "standing breech", I believe it's called(?) - the tang that the hooked breech locks into -- got shimmed up with lead sheet and some washers.


Barrel in the white. Stock completely unfinished and unsealed. I hit the range.


I'm not sold on it, especially since correction and modification are still required for real use. But it doesn't seem to be a total loss, either.
With 60 gr Goex FFg (from 1999!), 15 thou patches, and .490" round balls, it printed about 1.5" at 50 yards.
With 73 gr and the rest the same as above, it opened to about 3" at 50 yards. (A shame -- my .54 always loved 73 gr, so that's what my fixed powder measures were all made for.)
With both of the above charges of FFg and 385 gr 'Great Plains Bullets', it was more like 8".
A hay barn upwind of the range spontaneously ignited and forced me to leave before I moved out to 100 yards, but I'm sure the results would be proportionally the same.

More testing scheduled for Sunday or Monday.

Photos next time it's apart, if I remember.

And I do have a plan to replace the incredibly cheap and nasty die-cast thimble, should I decide to move forward with the rifle. (1/2" OD steel tube, a couple pieces of 1/8" flat stock, a quick trip to the drill press, and some quality time with the welder and grinder.)

[FrontierGander]

Up the patch to a .018 or .020 thickness. I run a .490 ball and .020 patch in all my traditions rifles.

Does that rifle have plastic sights?

[Tidewater_Kid]

These guys are good for parts.
http://www.deercreekproducts.net/sto...fle_Parts.html

TK

[FrankenMauser]

Nope.
That's one good thing I can say about this kit.
Traditions, it seems, finally heard enough complaints and went to Williams 'fiber-optic' aluminum sights. The Midway description and photos still showed the plastic sights when I ordered; but I got Williams sights with the kit.
(Though I currently have the Hawken rear steel sight paired with the Williams front.)

The patches are a mild irritation. I had 10s, 15s, and 20s on hand, but I saw a lot of recommendations for 18s with Traditions .50 barrels. So I ordered some 18s when I ordered the round balls and kit (I only had .530 balls on hand).
But, I was sent more 15s. I have a wide variety of rags around, including some pillow ticking. I may see if I can find something around 0.018", cut some strips, and lube it up.


On the subject of patches...
I managed to find twelve during testing.
I think these look pretty good, overall. But I'm more than willing to listen to opinions from people with more experience at reading patches. I haven't broken in a new barrel since 1999.

These are all 15 thou patches with Wonder Lube. Shown bore side up.
The two shredded patches were from the first two shots in the barrel. ...Not very representative of the group as a whole.
Top row - clean bore shot.
Second row and bottom right - 2nd or 3rd shot after cleaning.


Arrgghh. She went all blurry on me when resized.

[44 Dave]

Picked up one of those "problem" kit guns some one had built. It needed some shimming for the barrel and trigger, after shimming things I bedded them with that fast setting epoxy putty.

[4V50 Gary]

If it shoots good, give yourself credit. It's you, not Traditions.

[FrankenMauser]

Trigger and spring redesign:
Not ideal, but it's better that what Traditions thought was good enough to make a profit.

I may bend yet another spring up, with a slight dog leg in the long arm, so the trigger doesn't pull as much tension longitudinally. It should also lighten the pull weight a bit. (Currently about 6 lb. Originally about 18 lb... )

Left to right: Original, redesign v.1, v.2.



Bigger trigger pivot pin. Spring in place. Very small notch required at the edge of the trigger guard inletting, to clear the spring. I don't care, since it works and eliminates the "ticking time bomb" design from Traditions; and I didn't want to notch the trigger guard and roll pin (it's already cheap and weak - didn't want to make it worse).

[FrontierGander]

If you want a lighter trigger pull, you need to install an adjustable tumbler.

[FrankenMauser]

Indeed.
The lighter trigger pull isn't the intended goal. It's just a likely byproduct.

[4V50 Gary]

Well done FrankenMauser.

[FrankenMauser]

Rust-browned the barrel and tang. ("Standing breech"?) First time browning for the finished product. First time browning or bluing a hex or octagon barrel with something other than cold blue. Not perfect, but good enough. ...And my last time using Laurel Mountain Forge Brown/Degreaser. (I've experimented with it for two years on some take-off barrels and an old receiver. The copper sulfate/nitrate .. whatever it is .. just causes me problems. No matter how careful, fluid, smooth, and consistent I am, I get copper streaks and blotches -- even where I KNOW I did things perfectly.)

Hit the stock with one coat of Tru-Oil, and stopped. Don't like it. Way too light. I expected more goldish-brown. ...Got no color change. First time using Tru-Oil. Lesson learned.
Made me very glad that I did not do any real shaping on this stock. There's still plenty of room for me to sand that crap off, stain the stock, and reseal it later on.

Skipped bedding the tang, even though I should have. It's still living with lead shims under it.

Adjusted screw length(s) as needed.
Installed the included rear sight.
Slapped on that nasty thimble.
Reassembled the stock, etc....

My steel thimble was in work today (because that painted piece of die-cast garbage drives me nuts), but some unexpected life issues popped up. I cut, prepped, and drilled the flat bar; and cut, prepped, and shaped the tube. And I was *that* close to tack-welding it together when the evil cellphone notified me of an unsatisfactory development.
More than likely, I won't get back to the thimble until in or around the Muzzleloader Elk season (December). As long as the ugly one works, replacement is way down the list of priorities.


Anyway, that's how it sits and will be going back to the range.
If it works well enough, I'm leaving it alone at least until the smoke pole season is over.
After that... It depends on how much I like the thing. I have bigger priorities than a half-baked muzzle loader design that irritates me. But if I do like it, all bets are off... (Seems like a good opportunity to build a complete trigger assembly, if I think it's worth it... )

[4V50 Gary]

I see Traditions hasn't changed with respects to bad architecture. That horrible gap between the barrel and the timble is far too deep, causing the ramrod to hang there. This in turn makes the stock at the lock too fat.

I give you credit for going through with this project.

[FrontierGander]

this is a production muzzleloader, its not a custom, highly refined, slim muzzleloader. I don't understand folks wanting custom perfection on a low cost kit! Its a kit gun, if you don't like the way the ramrod under rib is, install one.

[4V50 Gary]

BTW, by pouring a pewter nosecap, it would improve it immensely.

[FrankenMauser]

Its a kit gun, if you don't like the way the ramrod under rib is, install one.

My brain is having a difficult time believing you're serious, since I've mentioned at least twice that that is the likely plan, and I've already started work on one.




I'd like to say that any possible nose cap would probably be brass (w/ matching escutcheons); but I think I'd probably end up going with steel. Without brass on the butt and/or trigger guard to offer aesthetic balance, the brass just wouldn't work out front.