Do you get fliers with your 17hmr?

rms65 · September 19, 2018, 11:26 PM

I'm giving myself the fits trying to get 17hmr to group constantly. Seems that when shooting 5 shot groups there's at least one flier. I have 2 Savage B17 rifles one heavy barrel, one sporter. My son, girlfriend and her daughter have different heavy barrel versions of the Savage 93r17. Generally theirs print a little better than my B17s. The 93r17s get about 1/2" groups @ 50 yards and the B17s about 3/4". That's not including the fliers. Fliers are often half inch to an inch away from the group. We've tried every non-winchester boxing of vmax and hollowpoints available and just when we get a good group and think we're onto something, we're back to where we started. I love the caliber but it's driving me crazy trying to get any consistency out it. Bottom line is I'm wondering if this is normal for the caliber or is there something I need to do differently?

Rob228 · September 20, 2018, 05:33 AM

With my 93r17 it is the first round out of a full magazine that is without fail a flyer. I only load 4 now.

NoSecondBest · September 20, 2018, 06:26 AM

Rimfire ammo is the most fickle ammo in the world. It varies from lot to lot and every gun will have a preferred bullet it shoots best. I have a 17HMR (CZ) and with some brands/batches of ammo it will shoot groups as small as .437" at 75 yards (five shots). Other ammo is well over an inch. You need to get a variety of different brands and weights to try in your gun. My gun will not shoot any 20g bullet well and prefers 17g bullets. When I found the best shooting bullet/brand I went back to the LGS and bought up the remaining stock in that lot number....it all shoots good now. FWIW, the groups you're describing are typical (in the real world, not the keyboard world) of how most of these guns shoot. You can help by trying what I suggested. Good luck.

Mobuck · September 20, 2018, 07:08 AM

How old is your ammo?
I've been noticing some occasional hangfires in some 8-10 year old Hornady 17HMR ammo. In some cases, it's hardly noticeable and others a definite snap---bang. I also see an occasional out of the group low hit as if there wasn't full ignition.
Same lot ammo that was producing cloverleafs in 2010, is now consistently 1" groups and I don't think it's all just the shooter getting older.

rms65 · September 20, 2018, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoSecondBest

Rimfire ammo is the most fickle ammo in the world. It varies from lot to lot and every gun will have a preferred bullet it shoots best. I have a 17HMR (CZ) and with some brands/batches of ammo it will shoot groups as small as .437" at 75 yards (five shots). Other ammo is well over an inch. You need to get a variety of different brands and weights to try in your gun. My gun will not shoot any 20g bullet well and prefers 17g bullets. When I found the best shooting bullet/brand I went back to the LGS and bought up the remaining stock in that lot number....it all shoots good now. FWIW, the groups you're describing are typical (in the real world, not the keyboard world) of how most of these guns shoot. You can help by trying what I suggested. Good luck.

Thanks. I read stuff on the internet and I feel like a failure. I've had a couple issues with 17hmr but overall I like the caliber. Savage just replaced my first B17F because it always threw the first shot 2+ MOA low and usually a little left. Then it would group around 1.5 MOA sans the flyers. I was shooting the replacement rifle today and I'm still getting fliers. Shipped back my Savage B17FVSS yesterday because the cocking pin was deforming, it would misfire and the accuracy is erratic. It tends to shoot split groups and I've checked the scope and mounts etc etc. I'm considering buying a better quality gun but if the cartridge is at fault, what's the sense?

NoSecondBest · September 20, 2018, 04:31 PM

I've owned a lot of rimfire rifles in my life, and many were from Savage. Most shot well, but the fit and finish on these guns really, really pales in comparison to the CZ rifles. Savage cuts corners that save them pennies and are at the expense of the function of the gun. Just look at their .22lr bolt guns: no feed ramp into the chamber. This causes a lot of problems. Some of their rifling looks like it was cut with a chisel and hammer. Amazing that they shoot as good as they do. Some of the most accurate out of the box centerfire rifles I've ever owned were made by Savage. However, I personally believe their rimfires are really bargain basement products anymore. I picked up my first CZ three years ago and I can't believe the difference in quality, accuracy, and function between the two brands of rifles. The best part of the CZ's is that they aren't that expensive. IIRC, my CZ 455 American was under four hundred bucks when I got it new. I now have three barrels for it and all three shoot lights out accurate. If you find that you can afford to try a CZ, I think you'd be pretty happy with one. If you want to really learn more about rimfires and how to get them to shoot, visit rimfirecentral.com I think they're up to around 30,000 members right now. Good luck with your gun and don't get too discouraged.

rms65 · September 21, 2018, 09:57 AM

Thanks I'll look into the CZs. I originally dismissed them because of the high bolt lift and subsequent clunky scope mounting choices. CZs definitely have a cult like following, so there has to be something to it. Tikka has a 17hmr in the works but there's not enough information on it yet for me to order one.

Doyle · September 21, 2018, 10:24 AM

I think NoSecondBest has the right answer. Somewhere out on the web (maybe Youtube) is a video showing how rimfire ammo is created. The priming process is totally manual and depends greatly on the skill of the operator. The operators with the greatest skill produce the most consistent primers (consistency being a key contributor towards accuracy). Those operators would then get assigned to the lines producing that manufacturer's "match grade" ammo while the less skilled operators get assigned to lines producing ordinary ammo.

FrankenMauser · September 21, 2018, 12:57 PM

My thoughts:
It's rimfire, in cheap rifles. Be happy that the average is generally quite decent, while knowing that even the flyers aren't all that bad.

---

I have a few rifles in the safe that irritate the crap out of me because of the one 'flyer' in every group.
I usually blame myself. I am, after all, the weakest link. The rifles are good. The ammo is good. The conditions are good. But the monkey behind the trigger...
However, I've shot those rifles enough to find that it probably isn't me.

The most irritating, to me, are my custom Marlin 444 and a 6x45mm AR upper.
I built both. (And, in this case, I feel that "built" is applicable even to the AR upper, since I had to do hand-fitting that ARs typically don't require, and I had to finish chamber the barrel myself. Anyway...)

Both of those rifles will stack their favorite loads in the same hole. It's beautiful.
...Except the 444 throws a cold bore shot 1" high, and the last shot 1/2" low, at 100 yards. And the 6x45mm always throws the 4th or 5th shot 1/4" to 1/2" to the right. (Yea, we're talking about 'flyers' that really aren't bad. But when the rest of the group is ONE HOLE, it irritates me.)

I could eliminate cold bore shots and the last round from 444 testing, and, theoretically, have perfect groups; but I feel like that would be cheating.

With both rifles, I've done testing to see if I was changing cheek weld, trigger pull, sight picture, hand pressure, grip style, posture, eye relief / scope picture, number of rounds in the magazine, and more. The groups remained the same.
Some rifles just like to be irritants.

To eliminate some of the irritation with the 444, I yanked the scope and dialed in some iron sights. It still shoots quite well. But I am no longer stacking the bullets in the same hole, so the flyers get lost in the 'noise'...

Mobuck · September 21, 2018, 07:39 PM

"and the last shot 1/2" low, at 100 yards."

Interesting comment. How does the rifle KNOW IT'S THE LAST SHOT?

Doyle · September 21, 2018, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Interesting comment. How does the rifle KNOW IT'S THE LAST SHOT?

Because it says "I'm done. Get me a beer".

FrankenMauser · September 21, 2018, 10:58 PM

Quote:

"and the last shot 1/2" low, at 100 yards."

Interesting comment. How does the rifle KNOW IT'S THE LAST SHOT?

There's nothing left in the magazine.

Mobuck · September 22, 2018, 08:36 PM

"There's nothing left in the magazine."

Well, there went the last tidbit of credibility you may have retained at this point.

FrankenMauser · September 22, 2018, 09:40 PM

I hadn't realized that I was supposed to be attempting to establish such when sharing anecdotal information. Can you point me toward the information desk, so I can pick up a pamphlet on establishing credibility while discussing flyers?

Nor do I see how a rifle being empty is not relevant to the rifle 'knowing' it's firing the last shot.
Dynamics change. The loaded or empty state of a magazine - particularly with tubular magazine rifles - can have a notable impact on performance.

Mobuck · September 23, 2018, 06:45 AM

Firearms are inanimate objects and as such, have no "knowledge".

Picher · September 23, 2018, 08:29 AM

Being a benchrest kind of guy, I'm careful about shooting groups and testing ammo. So far, Remington .17 HMR of one lot number shoots best in my new CZ barrel. It's shot a sub-1/2" for 4 shots at 100 yards, with a 5th shot flyer making the group 1".

Other groups with CCI and other ammos have grouped about 1 1/2" at that distance. The worst was still better than most .22 WMR groups with the other barrel. Two other batches of Remington ammo haven't been as good as the first, but still group a bit better than 1 1/2".

Apart from cleaning and breaking-in the barrel, I hope a varmint finds its way into my crosshairs soon, so I can examine the efficiency of the cartridge on critters.

Until I can prove otherwise, I think of the cartridge as a 150 yard max killer. It's shooting flat enough to consider no hold-over or under out to 130 yards or so, being sighted-in 3/4" high at 100...it's within 1" of the crosshairs between 25 and 130 yards.

Mobuck · September 23, 2018, 10:03 AM

"The worst was still better than most .22 WMR groups with the other barrel."

My Son went through 5-6 types/brands of 22WMR ammo before finding one that's really accurate in his "switch barrel" CZ. Those CZ 22 mag barrels seem to be finicky but do have good potential.

ocharry · September 23, 2018, 10:11 AM

have you checked the crown??

have you considered bedding the action??

have you tried different torque setting on the action screws??

the reason i ask is,, i have a 17wsm,,,and it would do what you are saying,,,my crown needed touched up,,,i did that,,,and i bedded the action and about an inch of the barrel,,,and the action screws responded nicely at 15 inch pounds,,,,not sure about the 17HMR but for me with the 17WSM,, i only have one ammo maker,,,yes there is different labels BUT Winchester makes it all

i have this rifle lined up at 80 yrds,,,it is making on a good day 1/2-5/8 size groups......i can tell you with the 20gr bullet,, it is min. of crow at a ranged 157

also one of the guys over on RFC likes to use one of those rubber barrel dampener things u slide on the barrel to change harmonics,,,he says it works,,,i cant speak to that,,,never tried one

just some rimfire thoughts

ocharry

FrankenMauser · September 23, 2018, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Firearms are inanimate objects and as such, have no "knowledge".

Are you going to address any of the points presented in the thread, and or contribute in any way?
Or are you just here to be a troll this week?

T. O'Heir · September 23, 2018, 11:40 AM

"...Rimfire ammo is the most fickle ammo in the world..." And that's putting it politely. It has nothing to do with the mag capacity or how many you load though. It's just the way rimfire ammo is.
Except for target ammo. That no .17 HMR is or ever will be. Target ammo is loaded with far more QC than hunting ammo.
Mind you, Savage B17/93r17's aren't target rifles either.

rms65 · September 23, 2018, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T. O'Heir

"...Rimfire ammo is the most fickle ammo in the world..." And that's putting it politely. It has nothing to do with the mag capacity or how many you load though. It's just the way rimfire ammo is.
Except for target ammo. That no .17 HMR is or ever will be. Target ammo is loaded with far more QC than hunting ammo.
Mind you, Savage B17/93r17's aren't target rifles either.

I know these Savage Rifles I have aren't true "target rifles". I'm just trying to determine how much of my inconsistencies are the rifle and how much is the ammo,. So many people claim that they get great accuracy out of their 17 hmr but if I take my best group and ignore a flier I could have a 3/8" group @ 50 too. But overall my groups are double that even ignoring the fliers. Truth is I've tried every ammo size shape and color and none are consistently better. I'll get a good group from any one of them if I go through enough boxes. Leads me to believe that I am wasting my time trying to get consistency. I have springer air rifles that put my 17s accuracy to shame but they won't kill anything past 50 yards.

Sharkbite · September 23, 2018, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Until I can prove otherwise, I think of the cartridge as a 150 yard max killer.

My shooting partner and I both shoot Ruger American Predators in 17hmr as our primary P-dog rifles. The little 17 may surprise you. Deadly at any range you can get a hit at. Flat as a laser out to about 125.

The performance WAY out does what it should.

As an aside we both shoot our 17’s suppressed. You would not think something going that fast would suppress well... its amazingly quiet.

Mobuck · September 24, 2018, 06:33 AM

"Leads me to believe that I am wasting my time trying to get consistency. "

It doesn't take much air movement to throw those itty bitty bullets out of the group. It doesn't even have to be what most would consider "wind", just air movement of a few MPH will blow a 1/2" group into a 1 or 1.5" group.

J.G. Terry · September 30, 2018, 08:10 AM

I have shot my plain jane 93R17 in informal matches@100 yards. It was more likely my poor marksmanship, Here, it's not possible to name another consistent problem. Better accuracy is with CCI 20gr. rounds. We are talking about ten round groups with called flyers. That's nothing to do with the round or the rifle.

Mobuck · October 11, 2018, 05:49 AM

"Are you going to address any of the points presented in the thread, and or contribute in any way?
Or are you just here to be a troll this week?"
As a matter of fact I already had addressed some of those points. You were the one who brought up a lever action 444 which had NOTHING to do with the OP.
Again I'll point out that a rifle can't "know" the final round of a group is being fired.

September 19, 2018, 11:26 PM	#1
rms65 Member Join Date: September 11, 2018 Posts: 75	Do you get fliers with your 17hmr? I'm giving myself the fits trying to get 17hmr to group constantly. Seems that when shooting 5 shot groups there's at least one flier. I have 2 Savage B17 rifles one heavy barrel, one sporter. My son, girlfriend and her daughter have different heavy barrel versions of the Savage 93r17. Generally theirs print a little better than my B17s. The 93r17s get about 1/2" groups @ 50 yards and the B17s about 3/4". That's not including the fliers. Fliers are often half inch to an inch away from the group. We've tried every non-winchester boxing of vmax and hollowpoints available and just when we get a good group and think we're onto something, we're back to where we started. I love the caliber but it's driving me crazy trying to get any consistency out it. Bottom line is I'm wondering if this is normal for the caliber or is there something I need to do differently?

September 21, 2018, 12:57 PM	#9
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	My thoughts: It's rimfire, in cheap rifles. Be happy that the average is generally quite decent, while knowing that even the flyers aren't all that bad. --- I have a few rifles in the safe that irritate the crap out of me because of the one 'flyer' in every group. I usually blame myself. I am, after all, the weakest link. The rifles are good. The ammo is good. The conditions are good. But the monkey behind the trigger... However, I've shot those rifles enough to find that it probably isn't me. The most irritating, to me, are my custom Marlin 444 and a 6x45mm AR upper. I built both. (And, in this case, I feel that "built" is applicable even to the AR upper, since I had to do hand-fitting that ARs typically don't require, and I had to finish chamber the barrel myself. Anyway...) Both of those rifles will stack their favorite loads in the same hole. It's beautiful. ...Except the 444 throws a cold bore shot 1" high, and the last shot 1/2" low, at 100 yards. And the 6x45mm always throws the 4th or 5th shot 1/4" to 1/2" to the right. (Yea, we're talking about 'flyers' that really aren't bad. But when the rest of the group is ONE HOLE, it irritates me.) I could eliminate cold bore shots and the last round from 444 testing, and, theoretically, have perfect groups; but I feel like that would be cheating. With both rifles, I've done testing to see if I was changing cheek weld, trigger pull, sight picture, hand pressure, grip style, posture, eye relief / scope picture, number of rounds in the magazine, and more. The groups remained the same. Some rifles just like to be irritants. To eliminate some of the irritation with the 444, I yanked the scope and dialed in some iron sights. It still shoots quite well. But I am no longer stacking the bullets in the same hole, so the flyers get lost in the 'noise'... __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

September 22, 2018, 09:40 PM	#14
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	I hadn't realized that I was supposed to be attempting to establish such when sharing anecdotal information. Can you point me toward the information desk, so I can pick up a pamphlet on establishing credibility while discussing flyers? Nor do I see how a rifle being empty is not relevant to the rifle 'knowing' it's firing the last shot. Dynamics change. The loaded or empty state of a magazine - particularly with tubular magazine rifles - can have a notable impact on performance. __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

September 23, 2018, 10:11 AM	#18
ocharry Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2006 Posts: 685	have you checked the crown?? have you considered bedding the action?? have you tried different torque setting on the action screws?? the reason i ask is,, i have a 17wsm,,,and it would do what you are saying,,,my crown needed touched up,,,i did that,,,and i bedded the action and about an inch of the barrel,,,and the action screws responded nicely at 15 inch pounds,,,,not sure about the 17HMR but for me with the 17WSM,, i only have one ammo maker,,,yes there is different labels BUT Winchester makes it all i have this rifle lined up at 80 yrds,,,it is making on a good day 1/2-5/8 size groups......i can tell you with the 20gr bullet,, it is min. of crow at a ranged 157 also one of the guys over on RFC likes to use one of those rubber barrel dampener things u slide on the barrel to change harmonics,,,he says it works,,,i cant speak to that,,,never tried one just some rimfire thoughts ocharry __________________ The felon does not fear the police, and he fears neither judge nor jury. Therefore what he must be taught to fear is his victim." - Lt. Col. Jeff Cooper, USMC

September 23, 2018, 11:40 AM	#20
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"...Rimfire ammo is the most fickle ammo in the world..." And that's putting it politely. It has nothing to do with the mag capacity or how many you load though. It's just the way rimfire ammo is. Except for target ammo. That no .17 HMR is or ever will be. Target ammo is loaded with far more QC than hunting ammo. Mind you, Savage B17/93r17's aren't target rifles either. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

September 20, 2018, 05:33 AM	#2
Rob228 Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 2010 Location: Hampstead NC Posts: 1,450	With my 93r17 it is the first round out of a full magazine that is without fail a flyer. I only load 4 now.

September 20, 2018, 06:26 AM	#3
NoSecondBest Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2009 Location: Western New York Posts: 2,736	Rimfire ammo is the most fickle ammo in the world. It varies from lot to lot and every gun will have a preferred bullet it shoots best. I have a 17HMR (CZ) and with some brands/batches of ammo it will shoot groups as small as .437" at 75 yards (five shots). Other ammo is well over an inch. You need to get a variety of different brands and weights to try in your gun. My gun will not shoot any 20g bullet well and prefers 17g bullets. When I found the best shooting bullet/brand I went back to the LGS and bought up the remaining stock in that lot number....it all shoots good now. FWIW, the groups you're describing are typical (in the real world, not the keyboard world) of how most of these guns shoot. You can help by trying what I suggested. Good luck.

September 20, 2018, 07:08 AM	#4
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	How old is your ammo? I've been noticing some occasional hangfires in some 8-10 year old Hornady 17HMR ammo. In some cases, it's hardly noticeable and others a definite snap---bang. I also see an occasional out of the group low hit as if there wasn't full ignition. Same lot ammo that was producing cloverleafs in 2010, is now consistently 1" groups and I don't think it's all just the shooter getting older.

September 20, 2018, 04:31 PM	#6
NoSecondBest Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2009 Location: Western New York Posts: 2,736	I've owned a lot of rimfire rifles in my life, and many were from Savage. Most shot well, but the fit and finish on these guns really, really pales in comparison to the CZ rifles. Savage cuts corners that save them pennies and are at the expense of the function of the gun. Just look at their .22lr bolt guns: no feed ramp into the chamber. This causes a lot of problems. Some of their rifling looks like it was cut with a chisel and hammer. Amazing that they shoot as good as they do. Some of the most accurate out of the box centerfire rifles I've ever owned were made by Savage. However, I personally believe their rimfires are really bargain basement products anymore. I picked up my first CZ three years ago and I can't believe the difference in quality, accuracy, and function between the two brands of rifles. The best part of the CZ's is that they aren't that expensive. IIRC, my CZ 455 American was under four hundred bucks when I got it new. I now have three barrels for it and all three shoot lights out accurate. If you find that you can afford to try a CZ, I think you'd be pretty happy with one. If you want to really learn more about rimfires and how to get them to shoot, visit rimfirecentral.com I think they're up to around 30,000 members right now. Good luck with your gun and don't get too discouraged.

September 21, 2018, 09:57 AM	#7
rms65 Member Join Date: September 11, 2018 Posts: 75	Thanks I'll look into the CZs. I originally dismissed them because of the high bolt lift and subsequent clunky scope mounting choices. CZs definitely have a cult like following, so there has to be something to it. Tikka has a 17hmr in the works but there's not enough information on it yet for me to order one.

September 21, 2018, 10:24 AM	#8
Doyle Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2007 Location: Rainbow City, Alabama Posts: 7,167	I think NoSecondBest has the right answer. Somewhere out on the web (maybe Youtube) is a video showing how rimfire ammo is created. The priming process is totally manual and depends greatly on the skill of the operator. The operators with the greatest skill produce the most consistent primers (consistency being a key contributor towards accuracy). Those operators would then get assigned to the lines producing that manufacturer's "match grade" ammo while the less skilled operators get assigned to lines producing ordinary ammo.

September 21, 2018, 07:39 PM	#10
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	"and the last shot 1/2" low, at 100 yards." Interesting comment. How does the rifle KNOW IT'S THE LAST SHOT?

September 22, 2018, 08:36 PM	#13
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	"There's nothing left in the magazine." Well, there went the last tidbit of credibility you may have retained at this point.

September 23, 2018, 06:45 AM	#15
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	Firearms are inanimate objects and as such, have no "knowledge".

September 23, 2018, 08:29 AM	#16
Picher Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2004 Location: Maine Posts: 3,694	Being a benchrest kind of guy, I'm careful about shooting groups and testing ammo. So far, Remington .17 HMR of one lot number shoots best in my new CZ barrel. It's shot a sub-1/2" for 4 shots at 100 yards, with a 5th shot flyer making the group 1". Other groups with CCI and other ammos have grouped about 1 1/2" at that distance. The worst was still better than most .22 WMR groups with the other barrel. Two other batches of Remington ammo haven't been as good as the first, but still group a bit better than 1 1/2". Apart from cleaning and breaking-in the barrel, I hope a varmint finds its way into my crosshairs soon, so I can examine the efficiency of the cartridge on critters. Until I can prove otherwise, I think of the cartridge as a 150 yard max killer. It's shooting flat enough to consider no hold-over or under out to 130 yards or so, being sighted-in 3/4" high at 100...it's within 1" of the crosshairs between 25 and 130 yards.

September 23, 2018, 10:03 AM	#17
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	"The worst was still better than most .22 WMR groups with the other barrel." My Son went through 5-6 types/brands of 22WMR ammo before finding one that's really accurate in his "switch barrel" CZ. Those CZ 22 mag barrels seem to be finicky but do have good potential.

September 24, 2018, 06:33 AM	#23
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	"Leads me to believe that I am wasting my time trying to get consistency. " It doesn't take much air movement to throw those itty bitty bullets out of the group. It doesn't even have to be what most would consider "wind", just air movement of a few MPH will blow a 1/2" group into a 1 or 1.5" group.

September 30, 2018, 08:10 AM	#24
J.G. Terry Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2014 Posts: 577	Savage 93R17 I have shot my plain jane 93R17 in informal matches@100 yards. It was more likely my poor marksmanship, Here, it's not possible to name another consistent problem. Better accuracy is with CCI 20gr. rounds. We are talking about ten round groups with called flyers. That's nothing to do with the round or the rifle. __________________ Intentionally Antagonizing Another MemberInsults and Ad Hominems Last edited by J.G. Terry; September 30, 2018 at 08:11 AM. Reason: SOS

October 11, 2018, 05:49 AM	#25
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	"Are you going to address any of the points presented in the thread, and or contribute in any way? Or are you just here to be a troll this week?" As a matter of fact I already had addressed some of those points. You were the one who brought up a lever action 444 which had NOTHING to do with the OP. Again I'll point out that a rifle can't "know" the final round of a group is being fired.