Force on Force Training and Etiquette for "Contact"

stonewall50 · June 2, 2018, 12:30 AM

I am wondering what is out there in terms of concealed carry and force on force training classes. Specifically as it relates to contact. I have done martial arts for a while and I am looking to improve my self defense now. I was focused on competitive BJJ (heavy emphasis on stand up judo/takedowns). But due to an injury, it is time for me to get out of the competitive side (injury was due lifting weights for heavyweight competition and not from an actual match).

So all that being said...I am curious if it is hard to find a school that wants full contact when they talk about force on force? If I were put in a scenario as a "bad guy" I would have no problems throwing someone down or throwing punches. I also wouldn't have an issue using my knowledge if I were the "good guy" and someone got in really tight with me and I felt I could put them down with my judo (bjj stand up is basically judo with wrestling mixed in if you have heavy emphasis on stand up). I am just wondering if anyone has trained in an environment that encourages the use of force on force and physical contact/sparring? I have seen a few videos of of some "scenarios," but the hands on part always seemed really tame. And if I am trying to get my gun out in a situation going south? I want my training to reflect as much violence as possible relating to that.

So? Are these common? Encouraged? Discouraged? Uncommon? Maybe some videos? And does anyone know of places in Florida that do this? Anywhere in North Central to Northwest Florida especially? Maybe even central? I would be happy to drive and take a seminar.

DukeConnor · June 2, 2018, 07:09 AM

I have never taken any civilian force on force training. If I did take a class, and somebody punched me in the face, I wouldn't be happy. I don't take classes to get my jaw broken.
I think if it was stated up front that if you take the class you may be puched in the face
not many people would sign up.

I have read that some Suarez classes get pretty physical.

zincwarrior · June 2, 2018, 08:10 AM

I would think it HIGHLY unlikely to find a class with that level of physical contact in the civilian world.

Wrong sport.

Bartholomew Roberts · June 2, 2018, 09:14 AM

You’ll know any responsible firearms class that offers that level of contact merely by the massive amounts of protective gear in all the photos. For example:
https://blauerspear.com/the-high-gea...eduction-suit/

In most scenarios, it isn’t practical. The point is to train and learn. While limiting your ability to punch the 50yr old student in the face might not be realistic, punching him in the face is probably going to limit what he learns to a few lessons he is already well aware of.

TunnelRat · June 2, 2018, 09:50 AM

It's going to depend on the school and the instructor. To address the comment above I'd say you're not likely to get your jaw broken. If it's a course that's mixing in hand to hand with firearms using simunitions or UTM then there will likely be chest protectors and helmets. If you don't care about the simunitions part then frankly finding a dojo or similar that does some work with blue guns is likely your best bet because of the following reasons. A lot of times the "bad guys" in these scenarios are volunteers. In a place that doesn't emphasize martial arts there's no guarantee that volunteer will have that martial arts background. At that point standing takedowns can become a liability depending on the layout of the situation (furniture, availability of pads, etc.) and the fact that the volunteer isn't used to that type of contact. A number of schools will do a day or two of live fire and then a day of force on force. The force on force could either be sims or just blue gun work. Many times part of the reason for offering an optional force on force day is in the event that some students do have an injury and need to avoid making it worse. I usually still do it despite having gone through PT for a knee and ankle on the same leg, but I'll be honest and say as a result I don't go full bore. Usually the "bad guys" try to measure their own responses with how hard the student seems willing to push.

Understand there is a balance between realism and safety. Your chances of actually getting in such a situation are relatively slim. Training events can lead to injury and if the intensity of the class is such that the rate of injury is very high then the class is likely putting students in more danger than it is helping them. That's why you'd need to clear any of this with the instructor and the school. One such trainer I know that does typically allow hand to hand to be more realistic is Todd Rassa. He trains in Texas and NH. He has an assistant instructor named Mickey from Modern Warrior in NY. He has a number of firearms courses with force on force components (usually an additional day), some more intense than others. It's likely worth asking him, but I don't know if he does a lot of standing takedowns.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

Sharkbite · June 2, 2018, 10:05 AM

When i was teaching with Rob Pincus at Valhalla, we held quite a few classes with full contact scenarios.

We used Tony Blauer’s “High gear” as PPE. It was just enough protection for normal contact training.

I did break a cpl ribs during one speciality training session. Damn BW guy threw my into a coffee table in the shoot house. All part of that level of training. No hard feelings on my part. The request was for ultra realistic CQB scenarios during a pre-deployment spin up. We gave it to them.

stonewall50 · June 2, 2018, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DukeConnor

I have never taken any civilian force on force training. If I did take a class, and somebody punched me in the face, I wouldn't be happy. I don't take classes to get my jaw broken.
I think if it was stated up front that if you take the class you may be puched in the face
not many people would sign up.

I have read that some Suarez classes get pretty physical.

And I understand that. But that is what I want. Controlled environment where getting physical is a real option. It is in real life. So it is an element that I would like to contend with in training :shrug:

But I’ve also had experience in my martial arts training. Most spars don’t end in injury

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

stonewall50 · June 2, 2018, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TunnelRat

It's going to depend on the school and the instructor. To address the comment above I'd say you're not likely to get your jaw broken. If it's a course that's mixing in hand to hand with firearms using simunitions or UTM then there will likely be chest protectors and helmets. If you don't care about the simunitions part then frankly finding a dojo or similar that does some work with blue guns is likely your best bet because of the following reasons. A lot of times the "bad guys" in these scenarios are volunteers. In a place that doesn't emphasize martial arts there's no guarantee that volunteer will have that martial arts background. At that point standing takedowns can become a liability depending on the layout of the situation (furniture, availability of pads, etc.) and the fact that the volunteer isn't used to that type of contact. A number of schools will do a day or two of live fire and then a day of force on force. The force on force could either be sims or just blue gun work. Many times part of the reason for offering an optional force on force day is in the event that some students do have an injury and need to avoid making it worse. I usually still do it despite having gone through PT for a knee and ankle on the same leg, but I'll be honest and say as a result I don't go full bore. Usually the "bad guys" try to measure their own responses with how hard the student seems willing to push.

Understand there is a balance between realism and safety. Your chances of actually getting in such a situation are relatively slim. Training events can lead to injury and if the intensity of the class is such that the rate of injury is very high then the class is likely putting students in more danger than it is helping them. That's why you'd need to clear any of this with the instructor and the school. One such trainer I know that does typically allow hand to hand to be more realistic is Todd Rassa. He trains in Texas and NH. He has an assistant instructor named Mickey from Modern Warrior in NY. He has a number of firearms courses with force on force components (usually an additional day), some more intense than others. It's likely worth asking him, but I don't know if he does a lot of standing takedown

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

For me The idea of tailoring My power and how rough I get to the person involved is pretty well understood. I am a martial artist with hands-on experience since 2010 so I definitely get what you were saying. It is just an interesting concept to me because I like the idea of going Full Contact because it helps me learn for sure.

stonewall50 · June 2, 2018, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sharkbite

When i was teaching with Rob Pincus at Valhalla, we held quite a few classes with full contact scenarios.

We used Tony Blauer’s “High gear” as PPE. It was just enough protection for normal contact training.

I did break a cpl ribs during one speciality training session. Damn BW guy threw my into a coffee table in the shoot house. All part of that level of training. No hard feelings on my part. The request was for ultra realistic CQB scenarios during a pre-deployment spin up. We gave it to them.

Yeah I having my level of experience I definitely understand that. Full contact doesn’t scare me. I wouldn’t want to injure someone and I wouldn’t want to be injured by someone. But at the same time and intense training session is going to have that risk factor.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

MTT TL · June 2, 2018, 07:43 PM

Other than police and military training I have never seen these. Police and military members are employed by agencies, get physicals before training begins, have a health plan, have disability insurance and the agencies are either heavily insured or insulated against lawsuits.

Everyone else not so much. I would think most reputable trainers are going to nerf training down to level that forgoes even the outside chance of injury, even then there will be all sorts of waivers signed and if there weren't well.... Nobody wants to get sued, reputable people even less so. One needs only look at the number of lawsuits over the "Sumo Wrestler" body suits that have been popular for years to get a grasp of how badly things could go.

TunnelRat · June 2, 2018, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stonewall50

For me The idea of tailoring My power and how rough I get to the person involved is pretty well understood. I am a martial artist with hands-on experience since 2010 so I definitely get what you were saying. It is just an interesting concept to me because I like the idea of going Full Contact because it helps me learn for sure.

Sure and in reality the notion that fights will only involve a firearm or only involve hands is relatively unrealistic. Again if you look around you might find what you're looking for. Beyond what's been mentioned so far idk of other trainers doing this specifically. You'd have to email/call or check their class descriptions. As was pointed out right above me, there is liability to this and even if you are fully willing to do this it is a potential lawsuit risk some instructors/schools aren't willing to take. There's a YouTube channel called GarandThumb and he usually mentionsna few facilities at the end of his videos (I think he's still active or reserve military). He'd be another person to ask.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

PPGMD · June 3, 2018, 01:41 PM

The problem with full contact force on force is that you can't see well out of the required safety gear, and you can't see role player's face well behind that gear. Thus outside of specific classes many schools ban it because you don't get the most out of the scenarios.

Some schools incorporate scenarios where the role player may come out in the required safety gear but that is often a signal that it is going to get physical and thus you are often more inclined to get physical.

June 2, 2018, 12:30 AM	#1
stonewall50 Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 668	Force on Force Training and Etiquette for "Contact" I am wondering what is out there in terms of concealed carry and force on force training classes. Specifically as it relates to contact. I have done martial arts for a while and I am looking to improve my self defense now. I was focused on competitive BJJ (heavy emphasis on stand up judo/takedowns). But due to an injury, it is time for me to get out of the competitive side (injury was due lifting weights for heavyweight competition and not from an actual match). So all that being said...I am curious if it is hard to find a school that wants full contact when they talk about force on force? If I were put in a scenario as a "bad guy" I would have no problems throwing someone down or throwing punches. I also wouldn't have an issue using my knowledge if I were the "good guy" and someone got in really tight with me and I felt I could put them down with my judo (bjj stand up is basically judo with wrestling mixed in if you have heavy emphasis on stand up). I am just wondering if anyone has trained in an environment that encourages the use of force on force and physical contact/sparring? I have seen a few videos of of some "scenarios," but the hands on part always seemed really tame. And if I am trying to get my gun out in a situation going south? I want my training to reflect as much violence as possible relating to that. So? Are these common? Encouraged? Discouraged? Uncommon? Maybe some videos? And does anyone know of places in Florida that do this? Anywhere in North Central to Northwest Florida especially? Maybe even central? I would be happy to drive and take a seminar. __________________ Faith Reason Fraternus

June 2, 2018, 07:43 PM	#10
MTT TL Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2009 Location: Quadling Country Posts: 2,780	Other than police and military training I have never seen these. Police and military members are employed by agencies, get physicals before training begins, have a health plan, have disability insurance and the agencies are either heavily insured or insulated against lawsuits. Everyone else not so much. I would think most reputable trainers are going to nerf training down to level that forgoes even the outside chance of injury, even then there will be all sorts of waivers signed and if there weren't well.... Nobody wants to get sued, reputable people even less so. One needs only look at the number of lawsuits over the "Sumo Wrestler" body suits that have been popular for years to get a grasp of how badly things could go. __________________ Thus a man should endeavor to reach this high place of courage with all his heart, and, so trying, never be backward in war.

June 2, 2018, 07:09 AM	#2
DukeConnor Senior Member Join Date: May 6, 2016 Posts: 224	I have never taken any civilian force on force training. If I did take a class, and somebody punched me in the face, I wouldn't be happy. I don't take classes to get my jaw broken. I think if it was stated up front that if you take the class you may be puched in the face not many people would sign up. I have read that some Suarez classes get pretty physical.

June 2, 2018, 08:10 AM	#3
zincwarrior Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2011 Location: Texas, land of Tex-Mex Posts: 2,259	I would think it HIGHLY unlikely to find a class with that level of physical contact in the civilian world. Wrong sport.

June 2, 2018, 09:14 AM	#4
Bartholomew Roberts member Join Date: June 12, 2000 Location: Texas and Oklahoma area Posts: 8,462	You’ll know any responsible firearms class that offers that level of contact merely by the massive amounts of protective gear in all the photos. For example: https://blauerspear.com/the-high-gea...eduction-suit/ In most scenarios, it isn’t practical. The point is to train and learn. While limiting your ability to punch the 50yr old student in the face might not be realistic, punching him in the face is probably going to limit what he learns to a few lessons he is already well aware of.

June 2, 2018, 09:50 AM	#5
TunnelRat Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 12,212	It's going to depend on the school and the instructor. To address the comment above I'd say you're not likely to get your jaw broken. If it's a course that's mixing in hand to hand with firearms using simunitions or UTM then there will likely be chest protectors and helmets. If you don't care about the simunitions part then frankly finding a dojo or similar that does some work with blue guns is likely your best bet because of the following reasons. A lot of times the "bad guys" in these scenarios are volunteers. In a place that doesn't emphasize martial arts there's no guarantee that volunteer will have that martial arts background. At that point standing takedowns can become a liability depending on the layout of the situation (furniture, availability of pads, etc.) and the fact that the volunteer isn't used to that type of contact. A number of schools will do a day or two of live fire and then a day of force on force. The force on force could either be sims or just blue gun work. Many times part of the reason for offering an optional force on force day is in the event that some students do have an injury and need to avoid making it worse. I usually still do it despite having gone through PT for a knee and ankle on the same leg, but I'll be honest and say as a result I don't go full bore. Usually the "bad guys" try to measure their own responses with how hard the student seems willing to push. Understand there is a balance between realism and safety. Your chances of actually getting in such a situation are relatively slim. Training events can lead to injury and if the intensity of the class is such that the rate of injury is very high then the class is likely putting students in more danger than it is helping them. That's why you'd need to clear any of this with the instructor and the school. One such trainer I know that does typically allow hand to hand to be more realistic is Todd Rassa. He trains in Texas and NH. He has an assistant instructor named Mickey from Modern Warrior in NY. He has a number of firearms courses with force on force components (usually an additional day), some more intense than others. It's likely worth asking him, but I don't know if he does a lot of standing takedowns. Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

June 2, 2018, 10:05 AM	#6
Sharkbite Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2013 Location: Western slope of Colorado Posts: 3,679	When i was teaching with Rob Pincus at Valhalla, we held quite a few classes with full contact scenarios. We used Tony Blauer’s “High gear” as PPE. It was just enough protection for normal contact training. I did break a cpl ribs during one speciality training session. Damn BW guy threw my into a coffee table in the shoot house. All part of that level of training. No hard feelings on my part. The request was for ultra realistic CQB scenarios during a pre-deployment spin up. We gave it to them.

June 3, 2018, 01:41 PM	#12
PPGMD Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Posts: 348	The problem with full contact force on force is that you can't see well out of the required safety gear, and you can't see role player's face well behind that gear. Thus outside of specific classes many schools ban it because you don't get the most out of the scenarios. Some schools incorporate scenarios where the role player may come out in the required safety gear but that is often a signal that it is going to get physical and thus you are often more inclined to get physical.