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Old May 14, 2018, 07:09 PM   #26
GarandTd
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I'm in the "I would rather buy a bigger caliber" group. I have no interest whatsoever in +P/+P+.
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Old May 14, 2018, 09:09 PM   #27
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If we are talking SAAMI +p,its 38,500 for +p,and 35,000 for standard. That's 10%
And that 10% more pressure does not equate to 10% more velocity in a given pistol length barrel.

You need to chrono a load thru YOUR gun and see what, if any, velocity gain you actually get. Then compare recoil between the +p and standard pressure load. If the gain makes sense.... go for it.
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Old May 14, 2018, 11:13 PM   #28
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"While I'm of the opinion that 9mm "needs all the help it can get", I don't think there's enough ballistic improvement with +P to justify the additional recoil, muzzle blast, etc."

Wouldn't a bigger gun/more powerful cartridge produce more recoil and muzzle blast, too?
I tend to buy guns proportional to their power, so my 9mm is a very light, very compact pistol, and bumping the power makes the gun harder than necessary to handle.
My .45 is much bigger and heavier, and is about equal in handling qualities, and I don't want to bump the recoil and blast of that one, either.
Muzzle blast is often more acute with +P, regardless of the base cartridge; 9mm+P would be greater than non+P .45.
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Old May 15, 2018, 09:57 AM   #29
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Even when a manufacturer says that +P is OK for a given model, it is often with a caveat that regular use increases wear. Like some have said, though, your money and your guns.
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Old May 17, 2018, 11:35 AM   #30
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Do you recommend 9mm +p over normal pressure 9mm? If so why and if not why not?
Recomend? No, it is for the individual to decide.
Do I use +P 9MM? Yes, sometimes.
In my small 9MM Kahr CM 9 I use Speer Gold Dot +P Short Barrel. Many tests indicate it has very good penetration, and expansion from short barrel firearms. The Short Barrel version is only available in +P.
Same with the 38 Spcl. Short Barrel in my LCR.
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Old May 17, 2018, 12:06 PM   #31
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9mm +p or +p+ only if you need the extra umph along with capacity. An occasional mag or three will not harm most modern semi autos.

Personally, I just carry 357 Sig under normal circumstances. Although these summer months are steering me toward a sub-compact Glock in 9mm. Maybe I'll carry +p+.
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Old May 17, 2018, 01:38 PM   #32
Jim Watson
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And that 10% more pressure does not equate to 10% more velocity in a given pistol length barrel.
Assuming that the powder was well chosen for the +P, it will give approximately 10% more energy, about 5% higher velocity.

Also note that SAAMI maximum is 35000 and +P maximum is 38500.
But 35001 is also +P (assuming they could measure that close, which they can't.) This tripped up Norma in the last century when they offered ".38 Special Magnum" ammo, advertised as high velocity at standard pressures due to a superior powder.
But that was CIP and they had to relabel it as +P under SAAMI for sale here.
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Old May 17, 2018, 01:48 PM   #33
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9mm super

Now wasn't that a fun exercise?
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Old June 7, 2018, 03:43 AM   #34
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I actually prefer 9mm+P for self defense ammo.
Just like I prefer .38 Special +P instead of non+P .38 Special ammo.
My handguns can handle it and I think the extra velocity does make a difference.
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Old June 7, 2018, 05:59 AM   #35
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I carry a concealed pistol because I can. If I get into a fight, as in a gunfight, I would be quite surprised, but it has happened to other people? So it could happen I suppose.

That being the case, having a good amount of cartridges in your carry pistol seems like a good idea? Carrying a particular bullet/cartridge combination that has a track record of working well when shot into vulnerable portions of the human body, mostly in documented Police shootings, I believe would be the place to start.
So why use plus P? or plus p+p just kicks more, and my Ranger T 147g HP goes deep enough to be effective, and what you hit, and how many times you hit it, is way more important than what you hit it with.
So a 4th Gen Glock 19 (16 round loadout) covers the basics, in my mind.
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Old June 7, 2018, 06:52 AM   #36
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The Illinois State Police did a ton of testing and determined very early to make the 9mm work. In real life shootings bullet construction and velocity were quickly seen to be critical. The eventually developed a load which became famous as "The Illinois State Police load" which was a 115 grain JHP loaded to +P+ pressures to achieve the desired velocity. This led to the Federal 9BPLE load which was carried by every FED with a 9mm for at least a decade after the infamous Miami FBI shootout.

I rarely carry a 9mm for SD, when I do it loaded with 115 grain or 124 grain +P+ JHP's.
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Old June 7, 2018, 07:26 AM   #37
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I’ve shot +P or +P+ in 9mm’s for years, and have seen no evidence of any accelerated wear in any of them. In fact, I liked the +P+ Ranger 127gn load a lot, as it proved to be one of the most accurate loads I shot in some pistols.
The high pressure loads feel a lot more like the surplus, real surplus 9mm ball i shot in the Radom I had when I was young. Muzzle blast and recoil are a complete non-issue.
Right now, I have a few boxes of 9mm BPLE in stock. Why not? It is one of the best deals in serious SD ammo with a great street record spanning decades...I think I paid $15/50 from SG ammo. My G26 is loaded with HST 147gn +P, also a good deal in 50rd boxes.
I very rarely buy ammo in anything but 50rd boxes.
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Old June 7, 2018, 09:43 AM   #38
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In my experience, 9mm +P tends to offer more consistent expansion over standard pressure. Also, the increase in recoil and muzzle blast when using +P is barely noticeable in service sized handguns.
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Old June 7, 2018, 01:20 PM   #39
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AMD6547.

The +P+ Ranger 127gn you speak about, I had a brief spell carrying, after hearing of the reports from the Autopsy rooms.

So way back when I gave this info. to a friend of mine who was the Chief Instructor of a City in Florida. He shifted over to it! His SWAT team loved it.

But when it found it's way into the teams H&K MP5s Sub Machine guns. And hammered the Bolt locking pins up! Very expensive repairs (Sorry Frank)
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Old June 7, 2018, 05:45 PM   #40
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I have a few guns with manuals that say you can use it but that it may increase wear and tear. Two things I like about 9mm are light recoil and affordability. Undermining those benefits and beating on my guns just doesn't appeal to me. If I want to send a 9mm projectile downrange at greater speeds, I'll do a better job with .357 Sig and I'll have peace of mind knowing that the guns are built for the task.
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Old June 8, 2018, 01:38 AM   #41
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If I want to send a 9mm projectile downrange at greater speeds, I'll do a better job with .357 Sig and I'll have peace of mind knowing that the guns are built for the task.
For speed, you'll do an even better job with a .357 Magnum, and an even better job than that with a .357AMP (Or .357GWM).

and yes, in a semi auto pistol.
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Old June 8, 2018, 02:54 AM   #42
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I enjoy my .357 revolvers but I just don't get around to carrying them anymore. Comparing full-size guns, the .357 Sig seems more portable with more capacity. For smaller guns, especially in the category where .357 magnum can be a tad brutal to shoot, I've fallen in love with .327 Federal. (I'm happy with six rounds, reasonable recoil, and over 1200 fps from a pocket gun.)

I've never tried .357 AMP but I've got to be careful with new and exciting things. I just got in over my head with flashlights over in the gear forum...
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Old June 8, 2018, 08:00 AM   #43
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But when it found it's way into the teams H&K MP5s Sub Machine guns. And hammered the Bolt locking pins up! Very expensive repairs (Sorry Frank)
Being an H&K armorer that makes no sense. MP5's were designed around NATO spec 9mm which is very close to American +P+.
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Old June 9, 2018, 06:57 PM   #44
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I have a few guns with manuals that say you can use it but that it may increase wear and tear. Two things I like about 9mm are light recoil and affordability. Undermining those benefits and beating on my guns just doesn't appeal to me. If I want to send a 9mm projectile downrange at greater speeds, I'll do a better job with .357 Sig and I'll have peace of mind knowing that the guns are built for the task.
Excellent post, Cosmo...my feelings exactly. Rod
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Old June 9, 2018, 07:46 PM   #45
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I use Federal HST +P 147 9MM for my self defense ammo and regular ammo for range use. I find the Federal HST +P 147 9MM pleasant to shoot even in my HST and will take any advantage I can get for a potential self defense situation.

As always one should try out whatever ammo they are considering and then choose what works best for them.
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Old June 9, 2018, 09:19 PM   #46
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If the purpose of the ammo is for self defense, I don't see why someone wouldn't use +p in 9mm? If you are using hollowpoints, then you want that hollowpoint to expand. An increase in velocity increases the likelihood it expands and would tend to result in greater expansion when it does.

The only reason not to would be the gun isn't rated for it. As for wear and tear on the gun, the simple solution is to practice mostly with none +p ammo, which I assumed everybody did anyway.

I prefer .40 personally for the simple reason bigger hole means more tissue damage and pain inflicted. I don't want to inflict more pain because im sadistic, but because if I take the drastic step of shooting someone, that person is trying to kill me and id like to deter them from continuing to try to kill me as quickly as possible. Anyone who doubts a bigger hole causes more pain has probably never had a 14 gauge IV started in them.
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Old June 10, 2018, 03:39 AM   #47
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If the purpose of the ammo is for self defense, I don't see why someone wouldn't use +p in 9mm? ... An increase in velocity increases the likelihood it expands and would tend to result in greater expansion when it does.
You are right about velocity helping to ensure expansion. However, ammo construction has come a long way and 9mm isn't as dicey as the .380 or .38 special so many people rely upon for defense. There are standard pressure rounds that perform adequately in gel, though gel isn't necessarily the best analog for dangerous people or animals. There is a nice chart of defense ammo gel tests over at Lucky Gunner if anyone is interested:

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/sel...allistic-tests

As far as other tests, Paul Harrell and others on YouTube have started doing "meat target" testing and this is an interesting trend.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6Q...68zynSa0hZy9uQ

Quote:
... As for wear and tear on the gun, the simple solution is to practice mostly with none +p ammo, which I assumed everybody did anyway.
While not always budget friendly, there is something to be said for practicing with what you count on for self defense. I know, people often respond that "you'll never feel it in a real stress situation" but there's a lot that changes--practically, psychologically, and physiologically--in those situations. There may be some value in keeping what you can the same.

Most of my shooting is plinking with cheap target ammo. However, I do make it a point to get out and do some higher-stress practice and drills with my carry ammo and it's just enough that I really don't want the extra wear and tear.


Quote:
I prefer .40 personally for the simple reason bigger hole means more tissue damage...
The .40 is bigger and heavier than 9mm while the .357 Sig is faster. I feel like both are good answers to any concern about 9mm, and I prefer either to pushing the century-old 9mm to its limits. That said, I do still carry 9mm on a semi-regular basis and it's usually standard pressure 124-grain HST. I've been shooting more .40 and may switch when colder weather hits, but I'm staring down the barrel of a new shoulder-holster investment before I do. (I spend a lot of time on the road.)
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Old June 10, 2018, 08:07 AM   #48
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Nanuk
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Being an H&K armourer that makes no sense. MP5's were designed around NATO spec 9mm which is very close to American +P+.
I can see your thoughts on this, using Sten gun ammo in MP 5s, that NATO ammo was hot. But I was given that info. As much as my 82-year-old memory remembers!
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Old June 10, 2018, 10:32 AM   #49
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Recommend for target, plinking, or practice - waste of money, duh. For self-defense, as long as the added recoil doesn't bother you, sure, why not?
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Old June 12, 2018, 12:46 PM   #50
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The only time I shoot 9mm +P is when I run through some 124 gr. +P Gold Dots through my Kahr CM 9 every now and then. As noted in post 16, they seem to run well in Kahrs.
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