Explain the Optics Prejudice

[Doyle]

Ben, I can see how that would happen far more out west where you are than here in the east or south. Hunting style here tends to be more of "sit and wait" rather than "roam and spot".

[std7mag]

I disregard those that loudly proclaim that anything over 9X are for varmint or target only. (TOHeir)

Living, and hunting on east coast (MD,PA,WV,VA)most of my scopes are 4-12.
2 are Vortex 4-12X42 Crossfire II with BDC.
2 are Redfield Revenge 4-12X40 with Varmint Accuranger reticle. There are markings for 8",16",25". 8" for varmints, 16" for deer chest, 25" for standing coyote, or elk chest. Use zoom to bracket animal, gives you range to 600 yards. Go to 12 power, hold over on BDC and reap your rewards.

Wifes rifle is wearing a Vortex Crossfire II 6-18X44. It's on a Savage 110FP in 223.
My custom Mauser in 284 Win is wearing a Sightron S-TAC 4-20X50.

Most of my hunting is on a gas/power line with occassional fields. Shots range anywhere from 20ft to over 1,200 yards.

When i shot my doe last year at 413 yards, just as it was getting light, i was glad for the 12 power.

[Ben Dover]

STD 7
What are you shooting at that's 600-1200 yards away??

Most hunters that I know consider 300-400 the max range for an ethical shot at a living animal.
And 400 would assume an expert or master class rifleman using a solid rest.

That;s my other gripe about high powered scopes. They seem to encourage people to "play sniper" and take shots that they really shouldn't.'

[Brian Pfleuger]

Originally Posted by Ben Dover

That;s my other gripe about high powered scopes. They seem to encourage people to "play sniper" and take shots that they really shouldn't.'

I've got a 5-25 on my deer rifle and I don't think I've ever attempted a shot over 100 yards with it. My longest shot ever on a deer was 175 yards, with a 4-12 Burris on an Encore Pro Hunter handgun.

If it was illegal to shoot a deer over 5x, I'd still want 25x for sighting purposes. I can't stand sighting in with low power.

Aim small, miss small.

[std7mag]

Ben,

1) i'm not your average hunter that takes 3 shots the day before season, and after season puts the rifle away till next season.

2) i average about 1,000 rounds a year out of that particular rifle.

3) i regularly shoot to 500 yards with all my rifles.

4) i shoot when it's nice, when it's raining, when the wind is blowing 10mph gusting 30, when it's snowing, when it's 90 degrees with 73% humidity, when it's 20 degrees with 30% humidity. In other words i KNOW how myself and the rifle shoot. I KNOW where that bullet is going to land.

5) i spotted the group of deer at 550 yards, and managed to get closer. I had fashioned a solid rest, that i practice doing at the range.

6) With all my experience, i know when i can hit a target at a certain distance, and when it's an iffy shot and hence choose not to do it.

[Ben Dover]

Std7.
You are apparently not one of the folks that I was referring to. You know your rifle and your personal limitations.

But in my 60+ years of hunting, I have seen many, far too many, people empty a magazine at an elk 800 yards or more away. The lucky ones missed completely. But far too many wounded the animal and allowed it to escape and suffer a long slow death in great pain.

I have lost many days of hunting time tracking wounded game that "Sammy Sniper" shot.

And I get really upset when I hear: "Heck, it wasn't much over 800 or 900 yards. That's an easy shot for my Remchester Belchfire magnum with the stargazer scope.

[eastbank]

on my two most used white tail rifles, a LH rem 700 in 7mm08 and a LH rem 700 in 308 I have 2.5x8 leupolds. my two longest shots so far were 280 yrds and 310 yrds prone with a harris bipod and the scopes were set of 8x, my closes shot was about 15 yrds taken at 2.5x on a standing deer in deep cover and I was able to thread the needle thru a 5" opening.

[huntinaz]

I used to wonder about this as well, before I stopped giving a rip about what the internet hunters said.

There are instances where magnification is more handy than necessary, I'll admit that. Why that makes it bad I have never understood. I run the heater in my truck in the winter, too.

Hunt with what makes you happy and what works for you.

[Art Eatman]

"Hunt with what makes you happy and what works for you."

Thread winner!

Having read a few dozen such threads as this, what seems to be common is that too many people seem to perceive a NEED for far more magnification than is actually necessary. (I'm thinking mostly of the whitetail hunters.)

[Tallest]

Art - It is certainly true that folks, whitetail hunters such as myself among them, sometimes use more magnification than is necessary. But all I’m after is an increased understanding of where the line is between necessary and unnecessary. I’m young and relatively inexperienced, so when something piques my curiosity or highlights a gap in my knowledge, I ask.

I’m more than happy to use what works for me. But it would be unwise to assume that my contented experience is the be-all end-all.

Also, I thank everyone for their input. I’ve enjoyed this thread and learned from it.

[B.L.E.]

It is certainly true that folks, whitetail hunters such as myself among them, sometimes use more magnification than is necessary.

A lot of whitetail hunters use a lot more gun than necessary too. Calibers suitable for whitetail hunting already existed in the 1920's.

[Double Naught Spy]

"Hunt with what makes you happy and what works for you."

Thread winner!

Having read a few dozen such threads as this, what seems to be common is that too many people seem to perceive a NEED for far more magnification than is actually necessary. (I'm thinking mostly of the whitetail hunters.)

Sort of conflicting statements - hunt with what makes you happy and then stating folks need more than is necessary.

I learned a lot time ago to not care what other people think is proper, appropriate, or necessary when it comes to hunting. Why? Because far too many hunters have the belief that if you aren't doing it their way (similar gear, caliber, optics, tactics, intent, reasons, etc.), then you are doing it wrong. However, when you put all the people together who know the "correct" way to do things, you find out they all do a lot of stuff differently and apparently aren't so correct after all.

[Art Eatman]

DNS, I'm talking about the perception of a need, as opposed to what's adequate for a clean kill. Need, as opposed to want.

I'm not gonna fuss at somebody wanting a scope above and beyond "adequate"; it's not my business. No way I'll rain on somebody's parade.

[buck460XVR]

Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy

Sort of conflicting statements - hunt with what makes you happy and then stating folks need more than is necessary.

I learned a lot time ago to not care what other people think is proper, appropriate, or necessary when it comes to hunting. Why? Because far too many hunters have the belief that if you aren't doing it their way (similar gear, caliber, optics, tactics, intent, reasons, etc.), then you are doing it wrong.

I agree. Kinda a Paradox, even tho it may, in some fashion, to be correct.

I still also stick with my original statement that folks tend to justify/defend what they own/use. Thus when the majority of folks claim a 3X9 is all you need, it's because it's what's the majority of those folks own/use, even if it's not what's the best for them and their application.

[HiBC]

Tallest,you asked because you want to learn.Its not about judging what another hunter uses. I get that.
I'll tell you what works for me,and why.

First,on big game,with iron sights,how far would you be confident? I think most folks would be good at 100 yds.I'm leading up to a general guideline,that 1X for every 100 yds is adequate for a heart/lung shot placement.
As has been mentioned,the fixed 4X was a fine scope for decades.Its still just as good.

Optical quality and having your ocular properly focused for a sharp reticle enable you to see /resolve well.

For hunting,my style relies on familiarity.The same scope field and reticle every time.I rangefind and kentucky with my duplex. Variable powers (second focal plane) change my reticle values. My favorite hunting scope is a 6x42 Leupold.( I live in Colorado)

I actually sight in at 300 yds.I can clearly see the diamond on the orange sight in target.The 257 AI puts the bullets in the diamond. 250 yd prairie dogs are no problem.For myself,I start thinking "Too far" about 400 yds. My 6X is good. How much more do I need?

Objective size...Most folks eye pupil will go 7mm in full dark,and about 5mm or less in hunting light. Which brings us to exit pupil size. Divide objective by power,you get exit pupil.My 6x42 has a 7mm exit pupil.Its all my eye can use.Its a great low light scope. But now,at 10X,to have a 5mm exit pupil,you need a 50 mm objective. As you choke down exit pupil,more magnification does not help you see better. To take advantage of high magnification,you need a large objective lens. Then we need high rings..There is more to this than having a big,clunky,heavy scope from oak brush to talus at 8000 feet...

I shoot best when I bring the rifle to my face and the fit gives me clear,full field of view with my reticle on target. I don't get that if tall rings make me lift my face off the rifle.

I don't need more field of view,my rifle and scope point like a shotgun.

I built this rifle on a Mexican 98 Mauser. With the scope,it weighs 7 lbs.It has very low rings.

The duplex is always the same.Its about 7 MOA,or 2 mils. So if an antelope body height fits the duplex,its about 200 yds. If he fits center to post,about 400. Its not as precise as a laser,but the trajectory of my 257 is forgiving of a little error.I'm not guessing the range. Thats instantly in the scope,all the time.
If I sight in exactly at 300 yds,the upper hanging duplex post is dead on at 100 yds.The lower post is on at 430 yds.(I know there are variables.altitude,etc) Most of my shots have been 200 to 300 yds.

Without reaching for a rangefinder,I can estimate range and interpolate a hold using that consistent,fixed duplex.It has become instinctive. I generally don't carry my Leica rangefinder anymore.Too much time,fumbling,and hand movement.

I don't think its prejudice. I have a package that,IMO,is elegant for what I do with it.
Sometimes,less is more.

[Erno86]

I know that I have a preference for second focal plane/rear focal plane variable scopes on my long guns; where the scale of the reticle stays the same size.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3ytDQom0Wg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6h-lOZ4vxk0

[HiBC]

Just for clarity,with a first,or front focal plane reticle,the measuring value of the reticle remains constant,but the reticle appearance changes as the variable power is changed.
The way that works is,at low power,cross hairs become very fine,perhaps invisible in poor light.At high power,they appear more coarse.

The advantage,the MOA or Mil value of the scope reticle is the same at any power.

With the more common (in USA) rear focal plane reticle,the scope "window" looks the same at all variable powers,but ranging and hold values only work at one magnification,usually the highest.

When I first put my 3.5 to 10 Leupold B+C scope on my AR-10 type rifle,I was doing some open ranch country long range plinking at rocks.

I was alarmed that a shot went WAY high,nearly shooting over the topof the hill I was using to stop my bullets.

I forgot the holdovers were good at 10X only,and greatly exaggerated when used at lower powers.

Its another way that,in the heat of the moment,Murphy's law can ring true.

If you have a"normal" USA rear focal plane reticle turned down in power,with any form of reticle that is used for ranging or hold,you will miss badly if your magnification is turned down.

If you have a front focal plane,GREAT! Your ranging and hold will be good at all powers...BUT, if you turn the power down for low light,your lines get very fine and features tiny.

When the ghost buck appears from the shadows,I don't want to think about all that.
My fixed power 6X is always on "The right" setting,and I can range,hold,and shoot without taking my eye away from the scope or moving my hands at the ranges I wll shoot at game,generally out to maybe 400 yds,usually 200 to 300 yds.

Agreed,at longer ranges,the laser,the Kestrel,the dope and the knobs all become important,and magnification is more useful.

Have the stuff and can do all that.Maybe on coyotes. I choose to keep my game hunting simpler.Get closer.

[Tallest]

Thanks HiBC - A lot of good information there!