Patterning the Hatsan Escort Magnum for defense

[chardin]

I recently patterned my Hatsan Escort Magnum shotgun with an eye toward defensive use.

I believe the standard practice for patterning a hunting shotgun is to use a large piece of butcher paper and pattern it at a single range, somewhere between 25 and 40 yards. The idea is to find out which loads throw doughnuts or other patterns that run a risk of allowing the game to escape.

For self-defense, I was advised to pattern the gun at ranges between five yards and wherever the load would throw a pattern wider than a man-width. The idea is to determine how far the shotgun is safe to use for defense without endangering others.

I welcome reasonable comments on my assumptions, execution, documentation, and whatever else.

[dreaming]

You don't think a person firing in a real world defense scenario can miss or partially miss with a shotgun at 5 yards? Also, keep in mind that the choice of defensive ammunition will greatly affect the pattern.

[chardin]

I think one can miss, obviously. I'm concerned with the range at which even a hit can endanger others.

I tried a variety of different loads in my patterning. In fact, I pointed out exactly what you said in my post.

[ATN082268]

For home defense, the layout of your home will show you the longest distance that you will have to shoot. I'd say, in general, a maximum range of 25 yards for typical home defense situations and it will probably end up being a lot less. Shotgun loads like the Federal flitecontrol OO Buckshot loads will shoot a tight pattern out to at least 25 yards. If you live in a mansion where you have an intercom at each end of the table (like in the Coming to America movie) and/or can shoot in any direction outside with no chance of hitting your neighbor, then there are likely better alternatives to a shotgun.

[dreaming]

Chardin. A man's width? Are you expecting the bad guy to face straight ahead and hold still so that you can place the center of your pattern smack dab in the middle of him while you are pumped on adrenalin and lighting is likely very poor. This is not to mention the sound of gunfire inside a structure without ears. I doubt you will have ear plugs in.

While there is no pattern that isn't going to endanger innocents down range, you may want to consider a much tighter pattern than a man's width.

[chardin]

dreaming, I'm not counting on anything like that. The man width merely defines the maximum range at which it's useful to test. I pattern at ranges up to that to determine the maximum range for different pattern sizes.

[FITASC]

If your home means you would be taking shots at BGs with innocents behind them in a line of fire, then you may want to rethink your choice of gun. Secondly, 00 buck will go through walls a lot easier than #1. I would second the advice about figuring out the longest interior shot you have where you live. In MY house, that is ~50' from one end to the other, which means 15-16 yards MAX.

[chardin]

Originally Posted by FITASC

If your home means you would be taking shots at BGs with innocents behind them in a line of fire, then you may want to rethink your choice of gun. Secondly, 00 buck will go through walls a lot easier than #1. I would second the advice about figuring out the longest interior shot you have where you live. In MY house, that is ~50' from one end to the other, which means 15-16 yards MAX.

I don't restrict my thinking to home defense. There are other defensive uses for a shotgun, and other reasons to care about backgrounds.

[FITASC]

Such as?

[chardin]

Defense not in a home? I hadn't thought that was obscure.

[ATN082268]

Originally Posted by chardin

Defense not in a home? I hadn't thought that was obscure.

O.K. What non home defense scenario/situation do you see yourself most likely to be in?

[chardin]

I'm not sure. The funny thing about defensive situations is that often they choose you. That's why it's good to have general information about how your shotgun performs, so you can make informed decisions at the time.

[ATN082268]

Originally Posted by chardin

I'm not sure. The funny thing about defensive situations is that often they choose you. That's why it's good to have general information about how your shotgun performs, so you can make informed decisions at the time.

So are we talking about something along the lines of toting a shotgun around to a local Starbucks or while touring your property? Without knowing factors like the terrain, I'd generally recommend tight grouping OO Buckshot for distances out to 40 yards and slugs for any greater distance. And if you think most of your shots will be more than 40 yards for a defensive situation, I'd question about using a shotgun for that distance and whether it is actually a defensive situation or not.

[chardin]

Well, in my blog post, I arrived at the solution that double-ought buckshot was the best solution. I am pleased that we agree. As for the Starbucks thing, I hope to hell you're joking, and I wouldn't give up the day job to do stand-up comedy.

[g.willikers]

The only sure way to use a shotgun for self defense, without having to worry about hitting innocent bystanders, is not to miss.
Or use it like a club.
Ever other scenario, real or imagined, has risks.
There's no getting around it.

[T. O'Heir]

"...one can miss..." Yep, if you don't aim. Shotguns are not point and shoot like Hollywood portrays 'em. However, there 's no such thing as patterning for defense. There's just patterning so you know how your shotgun shoots at assorted distances.
And you use 4 buck because of the number of pellets. 24 to 27 in 2.75" 12 gauge. A measly 8 for 00 buck.
Mind you, buck shot is unreliable past 35 or 40 yards and can penetrate too much. Goes right though 6 to 8, 5/8" sheets of dry wall about 3.5" apart, depending on the size. The wad will cause damage too. Those Truth About Guns guys sure have a lot of fun.
"...Defense not in a home..." Whole lot more legal and liability issues. More 'tactical'
issues as well. Like how to carry/transport and be able to get the thing into play.
Oh and that pattern of #8 shot at 5 yards will kill the BG stone dead. There will not be "superficial wounds". I note there is no mention of barrel length or choke on your Hatsan. Matters.
"...Or use it like a club..." Mossberg M500 Riot gun with an M-16 bayonet fixed. snicker.

[FITASC]

Shotguns are not point and shoot

Unless it has a rifled barrel or you are using slugs like a rifle, a shotgun IS point and shoot - that is, if you want to hit anything......

What it won't do Hollywood style is blow someone backwards off their feet and through a wall....unless it did the same to you......

[darkgael]

That business about a pattern the width of a man....of course, each shotgun has its own quirks and each load likewise. A general rule of thumb, though, is helpful. A load fired from a full choke barrel can be expected to open at the rate of an inch a yard. A cylinder choke will open twice as quickly.
You may find that your gun/load combo is startlingly different....it is just a rule of thumb.

[TB9]

a wise man once said spend the time at the range and practice, practice , practice .

[FITASC]

Well, in my blog post, I arrived at the solution that double-ought buckshot was the best solution.

And just HOW did you arrive at this solution? You are posting things on an internet blog that you are either unsure of or new at? Or am I missing something?

[dreaming]

I think you are chasing shadows, if you think there is a load for indoors home defense and all tactical applications outside the home. There is a reason law enforcement carries pistols, shotgun that often hold slugs, and rifles. Not to mention those with special weapons like the snipers.

By a shadow I mean a load that is safe to shoot at a distance where it patterns at the width of a man without endangering others. At any distance you are always endangering others. I hope you mean a distance at which is less dangerous to shoot various loads.

[chardin]

Originally Posted by FITASC

And just HOW did you arrive at this solution? You are posting things on an internet blog that you are either unsure of or new at? Or am I missing something?

How did I arrive at my solution? You could read the blog post and find out. I laid out my reasoning there.

I am not always sure of my answers. Cheap certainty is easy to find on the Internet.

[chardin]

Originally Posted by dreaming

I think you are chasing shadows, if you think there is a load for indoors home defense and all tactical applications outside the home. There is a reason law enforcement carries pistols, shotgun that often hold slugs, and rifles. Not to mention those with special weapons like the snipers.

By a shadow I mean a load that is safe to shoot at a distance where it patterns at the width of a man without endangering others. At any distance you are always endangering others. I hope you mean a distance at which is less dangerous to shoot various loads.

Where did I say I wanted one load for all applications?

I wanted to find out how different loads behaved at different ranges. One purpose of knowing that is to make informed decisions for defensive use.

[chardin]

Originally Posted by T. O'Heir

However, there 's no such thing as patterning for defense. There's just patterning so you know how your shotgun shoots at assorted distances.

So, if there's no such thing as patterning for defense, how come Louis Awerbuck spoke of the need to pattern one's shotgun with different loads at different ranges in his class on the tactical shotgun?

[Awerbuck] emphasized that unless you have patterned a specific shotgun with a specific type of buckshot at various ranges, it isn't a particularly good idea to use it as a defensive weapon.

Now, I've heard a lot of harrumphing in this thread about how not to do things. Some of it is directed at things I've described doing. Some of it is directed at misconstruals of things I've described doing. But very little of it amounts to much as an affirmative guide to what one should do.

So, I invite all of you to counter Mr. Awerbuck, who, although a world-famous shotgun expert, was after all one man. Appeals to authority cannot compare to facts and reason. Perhaps his ideas were dated. So step forth boldly and let's hear it: How would you test different types of shot in a defensive shotgun, and why?

[dreaming]

Someone who knows all the answers and accuses others, who are only trying to help him, of misconstruing him ought to learn to read. I was clearly not talking about shooting one load at different distances, but that any load endangers others at all distances, even if a particular load is less dangerous at certain distances.