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Old January 27, 2019, 03:38 PM   #151
jugornot
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Originally Posted by F. Guffey View Post
There is a thing called 'gets your money back'. It should be impossible to shorten the case between the shoulder/datum and the case head with a neck sizing die, I do not care how many stars fly out from between the die and shell holder.

F. Guffey
Wow you are dead on. What an insane comment by me. But all of this discussion is singling out a single part of a process. In my process I anneal every time before I resize. I know it is totally unnecessary. I am not trying to convince anyone that this is the only way to do this process. But I get remarkably consistent cases. I still do first and random checks but it never varies by more than .001". I am convinced the soft brass has minimum resistance to sizing and therefore comes out the same every time. My thought is soft brass will conform more easily to the die. The cam over (slight) is like double bumping a powder thrower. It is just a very consistent force. I shoot ARs and bolt guns in the same calibers. It was also consistent from 223 to 308 I used a competition shell holder of 06 for both ars (to return to new brass spec and an 08 shell holder for the bolt guns to minimize working the brass. In the bolt guns I use Lapua brass. In the ARs I use a mix of winchester Federal and mostly LC. I claim no expertise in the matter, but I know this works for me. It was a learning process that was derived from lots of reading and many hours of experimentation. This means in some opinions it is: wrong, unnecessary, foolish, a waste of time, stupid, treasonous, illegal, impossible, and every other adjective you want to throw in.

This morning I posted some SDs from a recent load test. Here They are decent. The brass was pulled LC cases (case and primer) from Midway. It was sorted by number and that is all. I do not understand all that occurs during the process but I know what seems to be working for me. My reasoning no matter how wrong is working for me.

Donning flame proof suit, I am now open to criticism.

Last edited by jugornot; January 27, 2019 at 04:16 PM. Reason: add link to another thread
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Old January 28, 2019, 10:23 AM   #152
F. Guffey
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If I used a standard shell holder I would have much shorter measurements. I would also be overworking the brass. It is very easy to use a cam over press and get the measurement you want with this accessory.
jugornot, please forgive, I use common, ordinary, everyday, nothing special shell holders, my shell holders have a deck height of .125". MY common ordinary everyday, nothing special RCBS shell holders allow me to size cases for short chambers. long chambers and ever thing in between. that would include cases that are .010" shorter from the shoulder of the case to the case head than a minimum length sized case to one that is .002" longer than a field reject length chamber from the shoulder to the case head. That is 26 different case length from the shoulder/datum to the case head. All I use for all of that is a feeler gage set. I could go to infinity but I avoid showing off.

When it comes to measuring the length of the chamber from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face I can modify a go-gage to measure a chamber length from go-gage length to infinity. Problem' I can not get into datums without everyone going all silly on me.

If I choose to shorten the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head I add a shim between the deck of the shell holder and case head. If I want to increase the length of the case from the case head to the shoulder of the case I add a shim between the top of the shell holder and bottom of the die. And then? I adjust the die to the shim and then secure the die to the press with the lock ring.

For this method and or technique to work for other reloaders we must find reloaders that understand cam over. To understand cam over the reloader must be able to measure the amount of cam over. I have both cam over and non cam over presses. In the big inning cam over presses were called 'bump' presses. The bump did not qualify the reloader to be a 'bump the shoulder back' reloader, the bump meant the ram pumped the die twice, once on the way up and again once on the way down.

"WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?"

It meant the die had to be adjusted when the die contacted the shell holder, the adjustment was not designed to be made after the die/ram cammed over.


Again, a friend lowered his die .052" after contact on a cam over press that had .017" cam over built into his A2 RCBS press, that is equal to lowering the die 3/4 turn plus anything else he did not understand. He screwed the die out with a pipe wrench, I thought that was a good ideal because? To lower the ram on his cam over press he first had to raise the ram 1/4 turn. The 1/4 turn plus the .051" bind he had his press in when I arrived equaled 1 full turn (1 full turn is equal to .071")

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Old January 28, 2019, 11:29 AM   #153
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Broken Rockchucker

https://thefiringline.com/forums/att...1&d=1524617263

I overstressed a press swaging my .40 JHP's :-(

Broke the frame of a rockchucker whilst forming the nose of a projectile.

Have since moved on to a walnut hill swage press designed to handle the pressures involved.

Expensive lesson......
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Old January 28, 2019, 12:14 PM   #154
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I see exactly what you are saying. The shim method is probably a more accurate way of doing the same thing as the shell holders. It is also cheaper. Good on both counts. But in my reloading I have seen cases that seem very resistant to sizing. I have taken the shell holders all the way to the 10 one and still did not get the measurement I wanted. Annealing solved this for me. How do you handle this situation, if you run out of room for shims (feeler gauges?) Or has this ever occurred?

As far as the cam over I would expect the exact situation you describe. At my job we have presses that closed with many tons of pressure. They consisted of an upper and lower platen with side links attached to the top platen and a bull gear in the lower platen. If the brakes on the motor failed the press would over-travel (go beyond BDC.) The next couple of hours were spent manually jacking the press back to the correct side of BDC.

Finally my suggestion is to use the same brand shell holder as die. I have a Lyman shell holder that measures much different than my Reddings.
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Old January 28, 2019, 01:00 PM   #155
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Finally my suggestion is to use the same brand shell holder as die. I have a Lyman shell holder that measures much different than my Reddings.
In a book of great orators was a debate between two groups; the group responding to a question said: "As sure as I am there is but one god I am as sure he has not dealt with us equally etc.' etc." .

I said my shell holders have a deck height of .125" meaning it does not matter what brand of shell holder I use. Years ago I purchased 2 counter display box of dies. On the bottom of the box was printed the instructions. The reloaders was instructed to use 'these' die with a shell holder with a deck height of .125". Meaning it was not until the inventions of the Internet reloaders started the story about matching die brands to shell holder brands. I have a depth micrometers, I have height gages and I have dial calipers that measure height.

Again, there is 'get your money back', I sort the shell holders that are not spec. and then separate. All of the shell holders I have that give manufacturers a bad repetition were made in the mid 50s.

Quote:
But in my reloading I have seen cases that seem very resistant to sizing. I have taken the shell holders all the way to the 10 one and still did not get the measurement I wanted.
Not fair, when I choose to size the case to minimum length/full length size I use my common ordinary everyday RCBS shell holder which is the .000" one. If I choose to avoid reducing the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head .010" I would use the .010" one with the added .010" increase in deck height.

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Old January 28, 2019, 01:02 PM   #156
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Case resistance to sizing: Yes, there are time the case wins, other time the press wins. And? I use a no name lube when it gets really difficult to size.

F. Guffey

Last edited by F. Guffey; January 28, 2019 at 03:26 PM.
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Old January 28, 2019, 03:20 PM   #157
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Thanks Guffey.

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Old January 28, 2019, 03:31 PM   #158
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Finally my suggestion is to use the same brand shell holder as die. I have a Lyman shell holder that measures much different than my Redding

Just having all the same brand would work but over the years I have shell holders made by at least four different manufacturers so what I do is this

I keep my dies in a workbench organizer I got at a hardware store. Each cartridge has it's own drawer and each drawer has a shell holder in it that is only used with that cartridge. Shell holders are pretty cheap, it is a easy way to get consistency. Just get one for each die box or however you store your dies
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Old January 28, 2019, 04:59 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by hounddawg View Post
Just having all the same brand would work but over the years I have shell holders made by at least four different manufacturers so what I do is this

I keep my dies in a workbench organizer I got at a hardware store. Each cartridge has it's own drawer and each drawer has a shell holder in it that is only used with that cartridge. Shell holders are pretty cheap, it is a easy way to get consistency. Just get one for each die box or however you store your dies
That works also. Once again it appeals to my inner demons to have a system that is so consistent across calibers and dies. My wife (who is a a Special Ed teacher (makes sense now doesn't it)) says I have mild OCD. As a OCD gestaltist I like when parts of the whole bring harmony to the whole. These are not over riding concerns but mild considerations. Broke my heart when I quit using The matching Redding competition neck sizers, but they were incompatible with the WFT trimmers. The Lee collet neck sizers are compatible.

This leads me back to the original topic of the thread. It requires much more input to my press to use the collet dies than the slight cam over of the body dies. And yes I feel the movement of the brass. When I used a full sizing die with and expander ball, the lowering of the ram was the most stressful part of the stroke. I almost believe that I could forgo using lube with the method/system I have come up with. At this time I won't test this theory. The lanolin alcohol mix is pretty cheap.
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Old January 28, 2019, 08:46 PM   #160
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I use the expander ball in my RCBS Standard Full Length Sizing die , it works very well and smooth . I'm sure alot of things come into play , brass thickness and how tight your chamber is . I have to look at my notes to see the outer dimension of the fired case neck. I don't lock down the stem I sandwich a O Ring between two washers at the top of the die between the lock nut , allows the ball and stem to self center . I feel very little resistance and average runout is .001 , if I neck turned my cases I would give removing the expander ball a try . Maybe one day.
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Old January 29, 2019, 12:01 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by F. Guffey View Post
In a book of great orators was a debate between two groups; the group responding to a question said: "As sure as I am there is but one god I am as sure he has not dealt with us equally etc.' etc." .

I said my shell holders have a deck height of .125" meaning it does not matter what brand of shell holder I use. Years ago I purchased 2 counter display box of dies. On the bottom of the box was printed the instructions. The reloaders was instructed to use 'these' die with a shell holder with a deck height of .125". Meaning it was not until the inventions of the Internet reloaders started the story about matching die brands to shell holder brands. I have a depth micrometers, I have height gages and I have dial calipers that measure height.

Again, there is 'get your money back', I sort the shell holders that are not spec. and then separate. All of the shell holders I have that give manufacturers a bad repetition were made in the mid 50s.



Not fair, when I choose to size the case to minimum length/full length size I use my common ordinary everyday RCBS shell holder which is the .000" one. If I choose to avoid reducing the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head .010" I would use the .010" one with the added .010" increase in deck height.

F. Guffey
The Lyman shell holder I have is .029 shorter than the Redding shell holder. Although the distance from the top to the deck the cartridge sits on is .125". The difference is between the surface that sets the top of the ram and the deck the case sits on. I body size with the appropriate, 06 or 08, shell holder and use the standard shell holder for all other operations. This avoids me getting confused and making fewer adjustments on the other dies. When I use the Lyman shell holder I would have to adjust the die almost half a turn down to make up for the difference. In other words the Redding shell holder completes the shell holder set. The Lyman requires adjustment to work with the set. In other words a slight cam over stroke with the Reddings is a non-cam over stroke with the Lyman.

On the other hand I was opposite when I said I could not reach my zero going down to the 10 shell holder. With the set you start with 10 and work up until you reach the case head to shoulder length you want. The "general" way the shell holder set works. With the ram set to give a slight cam over:

Standard shell holder is way below factory length
.002 usually is way under factory
.004 is still below factory
.006 is generally right on factory length maybe .0005 over to .001 under
.008 just shortens my bolt guns back slightly
.010 doesn't size any of the brass I've shot. I guess its for guns with longer chambers.
So if you were to use the Redding dies in a cam over press with a cam over stroke and a standard shell holder you are badly overworking the brass. I see why no one cams over a Redding die unless they have the comp shell holders. This may also only be true for their competition dies.


Thanks again Guffey and Dawg for keeping me straight.

Last edited by jugornot; January 29, 2019 at 12:07 AM.
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Old January 29, 2019, 01:47 AM   #162
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So if you were to use the Redding dies in a cam over press with a cam over stroke and a standard shell holder you are badly overworking the brass. I see why no one cams over a Redding die unless they have the comp shell holders. This may also only be true for their competition dies.
That is true for me , If I use my standard Redding 308 FL sizing die and there standard shell holder with cam over OR firm contact between die and shell holder my LC-14 cases come out .007 shorter the my Forster GO gauage . Since I size most of my cases about .001 longer then my GO gauge . That means my standard die and shell holder size my cases .008 smaller then I need/want . If I were to use the die and shell holder as directed I'd get case head separation with in 3 loadings

How do I know this , lucky guess ? NOT!!!



When I learned that , I started backing my die out to get that extra .008 of length but by doing so some cases came out .006 longer while other came out .010 longer with out adjusting my die . That was my new variance because of the flex/deflection in the press I was now getting do the shell holder and die no longer touching at the top of the stroke .

I tried the feeler gauges/shims between the die and shell holder to set up the die as well as under the case in the shell holder depending on which was needed at the time . That worked just fine but because of that .004 variance and me wanting only a .002 bump . That way of doing it required me to measure every case every time I sized it in order to know if I needed to use the shim either way . This took up a lot of my time and is why I went to the competition shell holders . When using those I remove the flex/deflection from the press while still being able to size my cases longer in .002-ish increments , they're not perfectly made in .002 increments but .0005 here or there is not a deal breaker for me . Although for what ever reason I often find my self in the middle of where I want to be . Meaning I want a .002 bump but the .004 holder gives me a .001 ump while the .006 holder gives me .003 bump . What ya guna do , sometimes you just can't have everything you want
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Old January 29, 2019, 03:59 AM   #163
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Sounds about right to me. I have the exact same experience except for case separations. My winchester brass has a neck splitting proclivity and eventually all will fall to loose primer pockets.
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Old January 29, 2019, 09:02 AM   #164
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damned if I know how you guys have the problems and get the results you do. I just follow the instructions set my die up and live happily ever after. Nothing fancy required and consistent results every time.

Full-Length Sizing Die Set-Up — Tip from Sinclair International

I just measured ten 6mm cases I sized and cleaned yesterday. Every one of the cases went into the sizing die at 1.536 and ten pulled from the box at random all measure 1.533 or 1.534. I am not doing anything special. Home made lanolin lube, Redding S bushing FL die, RCBS shellholder, Rockchucker press and no cam over.

Alpha 6CM LRP brass. New unfired case is 1.532. I could probably size down another .001. Measuring a new case at the web just above the groove measures .466, on the sized cases a bit fatter at .467. Just below the shoulder I measured .459 on the new cases and .461 on the sized cases. When inserting into a Wilson case holder it was obvious the sized cases are a bit fatter becasue only a bit of the neck protrudes on the sized cases whereas with the new the entire neck clears the end of the case holder. Necks on the sized are .268 and on the new .267. I am using a .268 bushing set up to size the first .2 inches of the neck

The sized brass chambers easily, and with the minimal sizing should last a very long time. No camover, no competition shellholders, it took less than 15 min to size 75 cases and all are within .0005 of each other.
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Old January 29, 2019, 10:59 AM   #165
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dawg
I went with the competition shellholders , my RCBS Standard shellholder was over sizing my brass , my fired brass was getting shorter do to expansion not longer . I use the comp holders set up the same as instructions only using the comp holders they have different deck heights . Once the right height is found for the brass I'm using . Then the setup is like yours .

Chris

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Old January 29, 2019, 02:12 PM   #166
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my fired brass was getting shorter do to expansion not longer . I use the comp holders wet up the same as instructions only using the comp holders they have different deck heights
Your brass was getting shorter, not longer? As I have said before this stuff does not lock me up and I have said this stuff does not drive me to the curb. You are claiming the case is getting shorter; and I wonder from where to where. There is shorter from the end of the case mouth to the case head and there is from the shoulder/datum to the case head.

And I always want to know if you measured before and again after.

Again, I do not find it necessary to use shims below the locknut. I do not find it necessary to use Competition shell holders and I do not find it necessary to grind the bottom of the die. I would find it nice if a maker of components made cases for reloaders that knew what they are doing; but because I am not hard headed I use other methods and or techniques.

If my cases were getting shorter I would want to know 'WHY?' 'HOW?' And then there is the expansion thing.

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Old January 29, 2019, 02:44 PM   #167
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Quote:
, my fired brass was getting shorter do to expansion not longer

post three of this thread - http://forum.accurateshooter.com/thr...idges.3946753/


Quote:
Case body expands outward on firing, pulling the shoulder back with lite to midrange loadings.

Set the fl die with a gap of .005" between the shell holder and fl die on a single stage press. See if sized brass will chamber. More adjustment may be needed next sizing as the brass grows with a few firings.

If using a Dillon progressive press, the shell plate may give a different shoulder bump at each station.
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Old January 29, 2019, 03:30 PM   #168
F. Guffey
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, my fired brass was getting shorter do to expansion not longer
I could suggest you think about it; problem, I can never remember a reloader thinking about anything but assuming he know what he is talking about. I asked CW308 a few questions, I do not expect answers. Again; I have said there is a lot of things going on between pulling the trigger and the bullet leaving the barrel that reloaders do not understand.

I have had cases shorten from the end of the neck to the case head .045" from forming, necking up and firing. It is impossible getting a reloader to think about 'it' because they all believe the shoulder is set back. I have said for 1,000 times it is impossible to set the shoulder back, there are times I add "with a die that has full case body support". Still, no one is provoked into thinking.

And again I ask; if the case shortened, where did it shorten? Did it shorten from the mouth of the case to the case head or did it shorten from the shoulder of the case to the case head?

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Old January 29, 2019, 04:23 PM   #169
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Gentlemen this is another cat skinning scenario. My take away from this discussion:

Dawg Your method is probably the cheapest, but if you use o-rings it might take 1 or 2 tries to get your perfect length. Also you cannot cam over which justifies the "don't stress your press.

Guffey Your method is cheap and very accurate. You can cam over or not, but solid contact is required. Also it requires some slight dexterity to hold a shim between the shell holder and the die. Unless you can describe your method for my better understanding.

CW and I Our method is very simple and relatively expensive. Solid contact or cam over is required, but according to CW it eliminated flex in the set up that caused a .004 variance in his case.

We each prefer our own method. No big deal. As long as we are satisfied what does it matter?

To Guffey: "Sometimes the brass wins." This is why I anneal every time. The brass quit winning when I started this. It helped me achieve the consistency. It also seems to be common sense (which doesn't seem that common) that the same "softness" of brass would behave consistently. What I don't know is why after just 2 or 3 firings the hardness could be from sizes easily to the brass wins. Perhaps without crapping this thread someone could explain that to me.

Finally as an instrument tech I worked with many skilled craftsmen. I was sort of over them. I tried to watch how people accomplished their repairs. Many times I could help them speed the process. By watching I could also pick up on the techniques they used which helped me. I also appreciated the old timers. They were a treasure of knowledge.

Thanks to all.
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Old January 29, 2019, 04:58 PM   #170
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Guffey Your method is cheap and very accurate. You can cam over or not, but solid contact is required. Also it requires some slight dexterity to hold a shim between the shell holder and the die. Unless you can describe your method for my better understanding.
Sounds like a Sheepshearing thing; to cam over or not to cam over and then there is the but thing as in "but solid contact is required. I am the fan of be nice to our press. there is no one that is nicer to their press than I am.

I size 280 Remington cases to 30/06. When I adjust the die to size the 280 Remington cases I adjust the die off the shell holder .014", The .014" gives me the magic .002" clearance and there is no solid contact.

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Old January 29, 2019, 06:11 PM   #171
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Got it. You adjust with feeler gauge and then run on. It also would not solve CWs odd problem.

My last word on be nice to your press. Where I worked we had 300 presses. A bottom fixed platen that contained a bullgear and motor gearbox. The top platen was much lighter and movable. The sidelinks the connection between the top and bottom platens. The sidelinks were pretty massive. 3" to 4" thick. Maybe 16" wide and 8' tall. A 1/2" piece of square stock was bolted towards the bottom of the the sidelink. It had a bracket that held it loosely near the top. A dial indicator measured off the top of the square stock to measure squeeze. The indicators had custom markings but were otherwise Identical to regular dial indicators. They (when properly adjusted) Would make probably close to a half a rotation when closed. If these indicators were just customized dial indicators I estimate the sidelinks were stretched about .035" to .045" everytime they closed. Average cycle times were less than 15 minutes. For about 100 cycles a day. they ran basically 24 hours a day 7 days a week. Although there were 10 holidays a year, they might run depending on demand. We did have some fail after 20 years or more. The failures would usually be welded seems on the top platen, which is the lighter part. This was after modification to higher openings. Never saw a sidelink fail. When disposing of the old sidelinks (because of the opening mod) it was obviouly cast from appearance. They also cut like crap as cast iron is want to do. It was more of a melting through them. It could have been cast steel. I don't know the cutting properties of cast steel or maybe I do but don't realize it. Anyway 100 cycles a day x 24 x call it 360 x 20 = 17,280,000 cycles before a minority of then failed.

It is my contention that a properly designed cam over press could last a lifetime. Will it fail? Well some will. Abuse and negligence assures that. Manufacturing defects will add some. Is it a rampant problem? No or the marketplace would have taken care of that problem. Just my opinion. How does that smell?

Last edited by jugornot; January 29, 2019 at 06:18 PM.
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Old January 29, 2019, 07:01 PM   #172
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Also it requires some slight dexterity to hold a shim between the shell holder and the die.
Not for me, I am the reloader that is not afraid of loosing his place meaning I adjust the die with the lock nut loose, I then adjust the die down to the feeler gage. After the die makes contact with the feeler gage I secure the lock ring to the die. That means I secure the die to the press with the lock ring.

I could say I adjust the die to a no load condition; problem, finding someone that understands a no load condition.

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Old January 29, 2019, 07:23 PM   #173
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The Lyman shell holder I have is .029 shorter than the Redding shell holder. Although the distance from the top to the deck the cartridge sits on is .125". The difference is between the surface that sets the top of the ram and the deck the case sits on. I body size with the appropriate, 06 or 08, shell holder and use the standard shell holder for all other operations. This avoids me getting confused and making fewer adjustments on the other dies. When I use the Lyman shell holder I would have to adjust the die almost half a turn down to make up for the difference. In other words the Redding shell holder completes the shell holder set. The Lyman requires adjustment to work with the set. In other words a slight cam over stroke with the Reddings is a non-cam over stroke with the Lyman.


I could suggest everyone take another look or I could suggest members think about it but I know I would be wasting my time. The last time I came across something like that was on a bench Resters forum.

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Old January 29, 2019, 07:29 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by F. Guffey View Post
Not for me, I am the reloader that is not afraid of loosing his place meaning I adjust the die with the lock nut loose, I then adjust the die down to the feeler gage. After the die makes contact with the feeler gage I secure the lock ring to the die. That means I secure the die to the press with the lock ring.

I could say I adjust the die to a no load condition; problem, finding someone that understands a no load condition.

F. Guffey
Got you. This would be slightly more time consuming on a cam over press, but the end result would also be a no load condition. It also would not solve CWs problem. It's pretty much how I set my seating die but without the shim.

Thanks for the explanation.

Last edited by jugornot; January 29, 2019 at 07:37 PM.
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Old January 29, 2019, 07:42 PM   #175
F. Guffey
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Quote:
It also would not solve CWs problem.
Have him to tell you about his problem.

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