The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old March 11, 2014, 11:32 AM   #1
BarryLee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 29, 2010
Location: The ATL (OTP)
Posts: 3,705
Knife in a Gun Fight

I generally carry a knife in or clipped to my right front pocket. Yesterday a friend told me I should carry my knife on the opposite side of my body from my handgun. His reasoning being that if someone attempts to grab your handgun you would instinctively grab their arm with your right hand. If your knife is in your right pocket it would be difficult to access. However, if it were on the opposite side you could use your left hand to access your knife and potentially use it for defensive purposes.

Does anyone utilize this weak side carry method for defensive purposes when carrying a handgun? Any other comments/observations?
__________________
A major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that it ... gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.
- Milton Friedman
BarryLee is offline  
Old March 11, 2014, 11:37 AM   #2
Sharkbite
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 2013
Location: Western slope of Colorado
Posts: 3,126
I generally carry one on each side. My Kali training emphasized mtpl blades so i may be in the minority here but i always have a blade accessible to my support hand
Sharkbite is online now  
Old March 11, 2014, 12:31 PM   #3
2damnold4this
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 12, 2009
Location: Athens, Georgia
Posts: 2,315
I think if the purpose of the knife is to be a back up for the gun, it makes sense for it to be accessible to the weak hand.
2damnold4this is offline  
Old March 11, 2014, 12:36 PM   #4
TxManx
Junior Member
 
Join Date: June 2, 2013
Posts: 3
I suppose if you have any ability with your left hand, it might make sense.

From a defensive standpoint - if you're carrying right side, are right handed - my martial arts trained me to step back into a left foot forward stance - increasing my stability, increasing the distance between my attacker and my gun / knife / primary striking arm... And allowing for a more powerful kick if required...

Grabbing the attacker as he continued forward would theoretically pull them off balance...

Too many followup options to list - but none would include drawing, opening and using a knife from my non-dominant side...

Old habits and muscle memory would be too much for me to overcome I guess, even theoretically.

My 2c...
TxManx is offline  
Old March 11, 2014, 12:40 PM   #5
boondocker385
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 6, 2013
Posts: 640
yes your idea makes sense but hand to hand, resisting disarmament, etc requires practice and training.
__________________
No second place finishes in a gun fight.
boondocker385 is offline  
Old March 11, 2014, 02:25 PM   #6
ClydeFrog
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 1, 2010
Posts: 5,797
Balance....

I prefer to level out my everyday carry items when I can(depending on conditions & workload). Id have my sidearm on one side with a white-light, knife, handcuffs(if required for the detail), OC spray(mk III size), wallet/badge, spare magazine(s).
I like to balance out the weight too. As for knife carry/deployment, it's not a bad idea to store the folder or blade in a way it could be used to deflect a gun grab. The TDI KaBar knife line is good for security officers or sworn LE who work in uniform. If a violent subject lunges for your firearm, you can slash or cut them with a TDI.
I tend to keep most folder knives or pocket knives in upper pockets(shirts).
I've found when you clip a knife to a side pocket is scuffs & nicks a lot of stuff.
It's also sometimes hard to access quickly while seated.

CF
ClydeFrog is offline  
Old March 11, 2014, 02:34 PM   #7
zincwarrior
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2011
Location: Texas, land of Tex-Mex
Posts: 2,070
I carry a tactical fruit insertion blade (Swiss army knife) in my pocket in case I am attacked by apples. If someone is attempting to grab my gun hand I've invested heavily in a tactical backup and inventory management unit (aka "the Wife") to beat them about the head and face with her purse after she's unloaded about 45 rounds into them.

Otherwise unless you surprise me in the elevator at work (in which case please kill me - when does thehurting stop?!?) I will be escorted by ferocious attack wiener dogs and a rather ferocious blond bear barely disguised as a mountain dog. Its not me my attackers have to worry about - its being licked to death.
zincwarrior is offline  
Old March 11, 2014, 03:17 PM   #8
raimius
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2008
Posts: 1,893
Train and see what works for you.
raimius is offline  
Old March 11, 2014, 04:49 PM   #9
giaquir
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 26, 2006
Location: Deerfield,New Hampshire
Posts: 507
I read somewhere that if a well trained
guy with a knife gets within (I can't remember)
16 or 26 feet of you and your gun-you have troubles.
giaquir is offline  
Old March 11, 2014, 06:48 PM   #10
FireForged
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 1999
Location: Rebel South USA
Posts: 1,733
From a weapon retention stand point where I am locked down on my strong side trying to keep a firearm holstered.... yes, I would want my knife on the other side where I could get to it.
__________________
Life is a web woven by necessity and chance...
FireForged is offline  
Old March 11, 2014, 07:18 PM   #11
9ballbilly
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 19, 2008
Location: northeast Florida
Posts: 552
I always carry my CC gun OWB on my (left) strong side and my knife clipped in my front right pocket. Done it this way for many years and it seems so natural now that if I ever made a conscious decision to do it this way I've long forgotten making it.
__________________
may God eternally bless the American Rifleman--- as long as one stands, resolute, liberty shall not perish.
9ballbilly is offline  
Old March 11, 2014, 09:02 PM   #12
colbad
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 3, 2012
Posts: 502
For me a fixed blade might be an option on the weak side. However, I do not have the weak hand dexterity to open a folder fast enough to be effective in CQB. I personally would opt for immediate open hand techniques that would free up my strong hand draw weather it be for a FA or knife.

In AF I carried a K-Bar suspended from my IBA in a blade up position on my left chest side. I could draw the fixed blade from most any position (standing /sitting) with either hand in that configuration. However the blade I needed most, being my Swiss Army knife was in my pocket. Probably not too many want to run around with a giant knife strapped to their chest.
colbad is offline  
Old March 11, 2014, 09:05 PM   #13
Blue Duck
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 15, 2006
Posts: 298
This may seem a little over the top, but I often carry a 6.5 inch long Puma Bowie Knife in a custom made leather (inside the pants) scabbard on my off hand side, in a reverse cavalry draw, or a smaller mouse gun on that side, but I like the knife, because for one thing it's legal in my state, (the blade length laws were repealed a few years ago) and there is not a mandate to carry it concealed so if I accidentally flash it, I am not necessarily in trouble. But the other reason is it's so very fast to deploy and if surprised into a grapple it just might save the day.
Blue Duck is offline  
Old March 11, 2014, 09:11 PM   #14
North East Redneck
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 6, 2012
Location: Berkshire Hills
Posts: 739
I'm strong side right with my hands and strong side left with feet. Punch with right, write with right, shoot with right hand on the trigger. I kick strong side left and play hockey lefty. Swing a bat righty. Gun sits on the right and belt/pocket blades on the left. When I carry it, the fixed blade knife is on the right. Why? Because I'm comfortable with it. That's how it works for me. Practice, learn what works for you without having to think. Your actions should happen without thought when it comes to self defense.
__________________
NRA Patron Member
SAF Life Member
GOAL Member
North East Redneck is offline  
Old March 11, 2014, 09:27 PM   #15
Ricebrnr
Member
 
Join Date: June 13, 2004
Posts: 86
Carry a NAA Mini 22 mag in support side pocket. Plus I have fists, elbows or knives on that side also. Options are good.
Ricebrnr is offline  
Old March 11, 2014, 11:57 PM   #16
BlackFeather
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 12, 2009
Location: West Coast
Posts: 450
Well, I prefer a knife accessible to both hands. Most of my day is spent without my gun. I go to lunch, and don't bother grabbing my gun. I keep a SOCP dagger on me. I'm a firm believer in knives, and instructor on the use of them. A folding knife needs training to deploy, fixed blades are easier. Understanding where to cut is important. Not all areas are best for physical harm, not all are best for retention. Depending on how you carry, what you carry, and what training you have, you may need to look at things differently than all of us.
__________________
"Today is victory over yourself of yesterday; tomorrow is your victory over lesser men." - Miyamoto Musashi

[Insert random irrelevant religious quote here]
BlackFeather is offline  
Old March 12, 2014, 01:30 AM   #17
old bear
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 3, 2009
Location: Not close enough to the beach
Posts: 1,478
Quote:
I read somewhere that if a well trained
guy with a knife gets within (I can't remember)
16 or 26 feet of you and your gun-you have troubles.
Big Trouble...........
old bear is offline  
Old March 12, 2014, 01:39 AM   #18
leadcounsel
Junior member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2005
Location: Tacoma, WA
Posts: 2,119
It's good logic to have a weapon available on your off hand, but really IMO for when/if your primary hand/weapon is disabled.

If someone is 'going for your' gun, you'd better be able to focus 100% of your effort to securing your gun. Going for a 3" folder means you may lose if the person secures your gun. A 3" folder, while dangerous, is not typically immediately lethal and sacrificing your gun in favor of your folder with your off hand might be a costly mistake.

So, first, you should have enough situational awareness to not have someone 'go for your gun.' Concealed guns should be concealed. Open carry, well, you must increase your situational awareness even greater.

Next, if someone is grabbing for it, you need to fight, elbow, and roll away and wrestle. For instance, a throat punch or elbow to your assailants face or eye gouges NOW is likely more effective than a stab/slash a second or two later with a puny folder Kershaw... and after he has your gun. However... I will say that if you are the type who can instantly draw and flick open a knife, then putting that in someone's throat or chest might end the assault too...

If you are standing, learning some simple judo hip throws or leg sweeps will effectively drop non-trained people. And a fall for an untrained person can easily end a fight because falls onto concrete tend to break/dislocate bones and joints.

So personally, if your space is invaded, strike hard and fast to his throat/face and while rolling away and defending your sidearm.
leadcounsel is offline  
Old March 12, 2014, 07:50 AM   #19
kraigwy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 11,040
Quote:
I read somewhere that if a well trained
guy with a knife gets within (I can't remember)
16 or 26 feet of you and your gun-you have troubles
Its called the "21 foot rule" which is the biggest myth since the internet came out.
I demonstrate this (with rubber knives and blue training guns) in my ladies firearms SD class.

Starting at 21 feet the knife guy charges the lady with a gun. Even the slowest lady could beat the knife guy.

Draw, shoot and sidestep = gunman wins.

It takes years and years of training and a bit of physical ability to be good with a knife.

Not so much with a firearm at normal SD distance, or the distance a knife would be a threat. They don't call the gun the "equalizer' for nothing.
__________________
Kraig Stuart
CPT USAR Ret
USAMU Sniper School Oct '78
Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071
kraigwy is offline  
Old March 12, 2014, 08:23 AM   #20
skoro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 30, 2008
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,933
For years, I've carried a knife in my change pocket, which is always on the right side of my jeans.

Might have to rethink that habit. It makes sense to have a knife readily available for the off hand.
skoro is offline  
Old March 12, 2014, 08:36 AM   #21
kraigwy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 11,040
I'm not into knife fighting but I am a fan of military history, and arms and uniforms of our past military.

From what I understand I believe if you use a knife and a gun, the knife should go with the strong hand, the gun which is easier to use and requires less strength should go in the week or off hand.

If you'll look at military uniforms from periods where the sword and gun were used, the sword was on the left side, but arraigned so that it could be drawn with the right hand (cross draw). When you look at the holster it is also arraigned so the butt of the revolver points toward the front (cross draw). Being set up in the cross draw position for the left hand it also can be drawn by the right hand. Its more difficult to draw a pistol/revolver with the left had if the holster is set up for the strong hand draw (butt facing the rear).

Its easier to shoot weak hand then it is to use a knife with your weak hand.
__________________
Kraig Stuart
CPT USAR Ret
USAMU Sniper School Oct '78
Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071
kraigwy is offline  
Old March 12, 2014, 08:41 AM   #22
eldermike
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2013
Location: NC
Posts: 545
In the movies you know whats about to happen, in real life you wake up (not always) and ask what happned. If you live with a knife and a gun out of necessity your address is wrong. Then there is Uhaul. I carry a knife because it's a tool and I don't bite apples since I got the bridge, I cut them up. I like one handed knives because they only require one hand. Last thought: If you had ever been in a knife fight you would do whatever it takes to prevent another one. Being ready for anything is impossible.
eldermike is offline  
Old March 12, 2014, 08:54 AM   #23
Skadoosh
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 13, 2010
Location: Virginia Beach
Posts: 2,013
Quote:
[B]Its called the "21 foot rule" which is the biggest myth since the internet came out.
I demonstrate this (with rubber knives and blue training guns) in my ladies firearms SD class.

Starting at 21 feet the knife guy charges the lady with a gun. Even the slowest lady could beat the knife guy.

Draw, shoot and sidestep = gunman wins.

It takes years and years of training and a bit of physical ability to be good with a knife.

Not so much with a firearm at normal SD distance, or the distance a knife would be a threat. They don't call the gun the "equalizer' for nothing.

You cant be serious. Those same ladies would likely do far worse in their NATURAL HABITAT than in the confines of YOUR DEMONSTRATION where they have an idea of what is coming and what specifically they must do. I would love to see how they fare as they are fishing for their car remote in a busy Walmart parking lot or as they hold the door for a little old lady.

And your assertion that it takes years of training to be good with a knife is ridiculous. A knife is simple tool. Even a novice can be lethal.
__________________
NRA Life Member
USN Retired
Skadoosh is offline  
Old March 12, 2014, 09:20 AM   #24
kraigwy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 11,040
You or anyone else is more then welcome to observe one of my classes and see for your selves.

I don't instruct a normal Fires Arms Class. The NRA would throw a hissy fit.

The students don't shoot from normal positions.

They draw from a diaper bag on a stroller, or from a purse in a shopping cart. I have a 3 foot doll and they have to draw and shoot while pulling the simulated child behind them for cover. They shoot from recliners, couches and seat belted in a car, laying down as if they were knocked on their butts at an ATM. That's just some of the scenarios I use.

I'm not interested in itty bitty groups, I'm interested in speed hitting a torso at relatively short range.

I do not have a set course of fire, my scenarios are based on the crimes against women I've seen in my twenty years in LE and crimes reported in the news.

I have a technical adviser (for lack of a better term) who attends with her mother. She has a Masters in Forensic Firearms Investigation who has studied or investigate thousands of firearm related incidents.

What I've learned from these ladies is:

DO NOT EVER SELL WOMEN SHORT when it comes to the ability to protect themselves and children.

Again we don't have a set course of fire, but there is an exception we do every night. One student aims her pistol at a target. A second student has her pistol where she would normally carry it. When the lady with the aimed pistol sees the lady with the concealed pistol start to draw she is to shoot.

If the lady fails to draw and get her shot off first, she needs to re-evaluate her method of carry.

You'd be surprised how many times the lady with the concealed weapon gets the shot off first.

If the lady can draw and shoot before the 2nd lady who already has her gun aimed, then there is no way you can convince me that a guy with a knife can cover 21 feet before a lady can draw, fire and sidestep.

The 21 foot rule is a MYTH, I can prove it to anyone who wishes to dispute it.

Its simple physics, You cannot, from standing and cover 21 feet in less then 2 seconds. But its easy for even a novice to get a shot off in less time then that.
__________________
Kraig Stuart
CPT USAR Ret
USAMU Sniper School Oct '78
Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071
kraigwy is offline  
Old March 12, 2014, 09:23 AM   #25
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,128
Quote:
Originally Posted by kraigwy
Its called the "21 foot rule" which is the biggest myth since the internet came out....
What's really a myth is calling it a "rule." It is not any kind of a rule.

Dennis Tueller (a Salt Lake City police officer) developed the exercise to test at what distances an assailant with a contact weapon could be a credible threat. The Tueller data can be helpful to a defender who needs to establish that he was reasonable in concluding that someone making threatening gestures with a club or knife had Ability, Opportunity and put him in Jeopardy even if the "assailant" was 20 feet away.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:53 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.10043 seconds with 8 queries