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Old May 20, 2010, 12:01 PM   #76
threegun
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Glenn, The body armored thugs I mentioned were a real threat. Rare to the point that we never even considered it a possibility until HCSO detectives warned us of the threat in our area by a single group. I still only prepare for this rare event with my failure to stop drills.

As for your question........
Quote:
How do folks who alternate fmj, hardball with HP analyzed the risk of needing such to 'penetrate' likely opponents as compared to the risk over overpenetrating and shooting an innocent.
.........I can only answer by saying I will do all possible to avoid harm to innocents however my first and foremost duty is to survive the encounter. If I feel it necessary to load a round more prone to over penetration it will be for good reason (in my mind).

Heck many of the 1911 guys can't even consider hollow points for reliability reasons. Should they only engage vehicles or fat guys?

I'm gonna load what I feel will aid me in doing what needs to be done to win the fight. If mixing a mag to cover different threats is needed so be it.
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Old May 20, 2010, 10:07 PM   #77
Dave R
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Quote:
How do folks who alternate fmj, hardball with HP analyzed the risk of needing such to 'penetrate' likely opponents as compared to the risk over overpenetrating and shooting an innocent.
I alternate, and I don't think the risk of overpenetration with .380acp is very high.

As others have said, I don't think too many people with "major" handguns alternate. Just those of us with minor calibers.
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Old May 25, 2010, 07:32 AM   #78
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Except for initial snake shot rounds for outdoor carry and snakes - I really don't buy into the "I have to penetrate a car or crazed meth body armored zombie" as compared to the overpenetration risk.
Glenn, I tend to agree with you.

I feel that too many people only assess risk regarding the consequence aspect, and don't take into account the probability component. A particular event may have a catastrophic outcome but an extremely remote probability of occurance, in which case the risk of that event is medium or even low. On the other hand, a different event may have a negligable or marginal outcome but be extremely likely to occur, which would carry with it a higher level of risk.

How many people who "set up" their magazine loads really do any involved risk analysis? Do you come up with a list of potential events in your life, do the risk analysis, and then rack & stack them to determine your "combat load?"

Glenn, I've been reading your work and I'm interested in your take on the effect on a shooter's decision making if they have a mixed load magazine, in a self defense scenario where the potential for collatoral damage from over penetration is real. Would the armed citizen hesitate, or would their reaction be slowed as a result? What if the first few rounds out of the gun were less-than-lethal, how does that affect their reaction, and do you think they are more likely to draw on an assailant given that loading? It seems to me that it would tend to foster escalation rather than peaceful conflict resolution or flight/retreat.
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Old May 25, 2010, 09:47 AM   #79
Glenn E. Meyer
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Good question - kind of busy now - so I'll deal with it later. Thanks for thinking deeply about the issue.
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Old May 25, 2010, 10:35 AM   #80
ClydeFrog
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mixed messages, mixed loads..

I say; "Mix drinks, not magazines!"

Really, I do not mix rounds in magazines or advise any LE officer, armed PI/security guard or licensed citizen to do it.
It makes much more sense to use one type of load then switch with a fully loaded spare mag or 2 with a different round.
Like Glaser Safety Slugs in the pistol and CorBon PowRBall in a spare magazine. Or a .45acp 200gr JHP +P Gold Dot in the pistol with a spare mag loaded with 230gr milspec FMJ.

I knew a MP SGT in the military who would carry a Glaser Blue Safety Slug 9mm round in the chamber but 15 rounds of 9mmNATO FMJ in his own S&W 5906. That was many years ago when Glasers Magsafe etc were $2/3.00 per round and not that popular with the US shooting public.

CF
ps: In one of his non fiction books about his military service in SE Asia, CDR Richard "Demo Dick" Marcinko, US SEAL(retired), www.dickmarcinko.com , wrote that he'd load his CAR-15/M-16 5.56mm mags with red tracer rounds first then the FMJ/NATO rounds. That way in combat he would quickly know his rifle was going dry, .
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Old May 25, 2010, 11:09 AM   #81
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Quote:
US SEAL(retired), www.dickmarcinko.com , wrote that he'd load his CAR-15/M-16 5.56mm mags with red tracer rounds first then the FMJ/NATO rounds. That way in combat he would quickly know his rifle was going dry, .
IMO a good tactic and yet another reason to support mixing mags.
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Old May 25, 2010, 02:54 PM   #82
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The idea of putting a tracer near the end of your mag has been around for a while. Unfortunately, it doesn't jive well with the Geneva Convention regarding military operations, and if you ever shot a would-be mugger/rapist with anything that contained incendiary components, well, you might as well just leave the country haha.
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Old May 26, 2010, 01:40 AM   #83
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Use of tracer rounds by armed citizens/Robert Boatman; mags...

I highly doubt any US law enforcement or armed citizens are even using any kind of tracer or incinerary type handgun round in 2010, let alone, mixing loads.

The late author Robert Boatman; www.Boatmanbooks.com made the point about mixing rounds in a carry/duty handgun magazine saying that he chose not to for his regular Glock 36 model .45acp. He did use other rounds in spare mags saying it could help for extended ranges, barriers, etc. That to me is much more practical than mixing rounds.

It's up to the person or LEO/armed professional to decide. It's their life at risk.

Clyde
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Old May 26, 2010, 06:18 AM   #84
threegun
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BookerT, I think you are dead on about the liability involving the use of tracer ammunition. That said it is still a great tactic IMO especially in a military or perhaps riot defense setting. It also supports the arguement of those of us who will mix mags as we feel the need.

I have mixed tracer 762x39 rounds into my 75 round drum mags every 4th round back when I lived near an area prone to rioting.
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Old May 26, 2010, 10:04 AM   #85
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There is one instance where anyone who owns an automatic pistol should consider using different rounds. If your gun doesn't feed a particular type of defensive ammo you really would prefer, then that's the round you might want to consider keeping chambered, and load the magazine with rounds that your gun feeds with no problem.

For example, I have an AMT .45 Backup. It can be a little picky about what hollow-point ammo it will feed. Ball ammo is no problem - it will eat any ball ammo like candy. For awhile I was keeping one hot hollowpoint in the chamber and then loading the rest of he magazine with jacketed ball ammo. Since I would only use the gun at a distance of less than 10 feet, it's a good chance that first shot will really count - so, why not chamber it with the best round since feeding wasn't an issue.

Note, that I have since replaced the recoil spring with a new wolf spring and it now feeds hollowpoints with no problem. I think weak recoil springs gave the AMT backup a bad reputation.
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Old May 27, 2010, 12:15 AM   #86
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carry/duty/protection firearms...

As for me, I'd NEVER carry any semi auto pistol that did not fire, feed or cycle 100% of the time with the selected pistol round(FMJ-JHP-Glaser Safety etc).

Many years ago, I read a gun magazine article where the writer noted how a police detective he knew carried a old P-38 9mm on duty. The plainclothes detective KNEW the P-38 would jam with JHPs every 2-3 rounds but still used it on duty. Most people would not carry or use a firearm like that but others(like the detective) did not give the same type of concern towards weapons/ammunition.
I would either change the gun, change the ammunition or see exactly how or why a pistol would misfire or jam.
I can't speak for every gun owner, security officer, sworn LEO or military service member but I only use pistols that I know will work 100% all the time.
Some may think $$$ is more important than their safety but not me.
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Old May 27, 2010, 01:57 AM   #87
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Quote:
Note, that I have since replaced the recoil spring with a new wolf spring and it now feeds hollowpoints with no problem. I think weak recoil springs gave the AMT backup a bad reputation.
I think that's the real solution.

BTW, I just picked one of these up about a month ago, but didn't have any hollow points to load for it. I'm going to get it out to the range with some JHP's and wring it out one of these days. Where did you get the Wolf spring? I had no idea anyone made parts for this gun. Does someone still make mags for it?
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Old May 27, 2010, 08:33 AM   #88
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Off Topic (re: 45 AMT Backup information): WayneinFL,

Mags for the .45 Backup, while not common can be found without too much difficulty. I just picked up another factory mag at a gunshow a couple of weeks ago. Plus, you can find them on line.

Beware - there are a lot of aftermarket mags available for this gun. I took my AMT to the gunshow and tied two aftermarket mags out, just to see if they would fit. NEITHER would fit - a tad too long. Plus the follower was plastic and a different shape. Stick with factory magazines!

Wolf makes a good guide-rod/recoil spring and they have them in stock - I just purchased one and it cost about $12 with shipping. It really makes a difference - highly recomended!

One other think I will tell you about AMT 45 Backup parts. You can find parts for this gun on Gunbroker, etc. I recently purchased a complete parts set for mine. HOWEVER, unknown to me there were two versions of the AMT 45 DAO Backup manufactured. The slides and the barrels are slightly different and will not interchange without some significant modifications. Comparing the two barrels side-by-side, the ramps are significantly different - other than the ramps, the barrels are identical. Comparing the two slides side-by-side, one was made with some kind of firing pin safety plunger and one lacks the firing pin safety plunger. Either slide will easily fit to the frame and appear to operate ok when you rack the slide. The problem is that when you press the tigger, you can't pull it back far enough to release the hammer. I could probably modify the slide enough to make it work, but I don't think there is any way to get the barrel to work.

FWIW, I've been very pleased with this gun for concealed carry. It's well worth taking the time to tune it and get it running 100%. You'll read a lot of complaints about this gun which, IMHO are complete BS. It'll feed hollow points just fine, so long as you are using a good factory magazine and replace the old guide-rod spring with a wolf spring. Some light polishing might help, but I don't think that's really necessary.

All of the other parts seem to be identical - so I'm too dissapointed as I have spares of the firing pin, extractor, ejector, hammer, trigger, springs, etc., and these are the likely parts to need replacing.

Last edited by Skans; May 27, 2010 at 08:51 AM.
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