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Old April 17, 2010, 08:06 PM   #26
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Geeze I'm glad I split my life....

between Key West & NW Wyo. (but I still always carry my ancient as new Airweight with laser grips).
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Old April 17, 2010, 08:17 PM   #27
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Always walk against traffic, that way you can see if somebody is scoping you out, slowing down, or paying attention to you. By the time they stop and get out of the car, you should already have your gun drawn unless it's a lttle old lady asking for directions.
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Old April 17, 2010, 10:07 PM   #28
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3 guys and 6 rounds, everyone gets 2. then feel free to use their own pipe on them. I've already decided, if more then 1 guy comes at me there are gonna be fatalities.
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Old April 18, 2010, 02:57 PM   #29
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Your walking down the jerks to a stop, guys get out...your hand is on your see a guy with a gun, you draw on him, if he brings it drop him....then point to the other guys, who will probably run off..

It's just that simple.
I couldn't have said it any better.

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Old April 18, 2010, 03:59 PM   #30
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Assuming you are already carrying, here's my take:

If you believe that the situation will be ended without bloodshed by giving up your wallet, by all means give it up.

Secondly, I see no problem with a small revolver as a choice of weapons. If the two BG's with the pipe and brass knuckles are determined enough to attack you even after their comrade has be shot, extra capacity is not likely to make any difference as you probably wouldn't have enough time to use it anyway. I assume we're talking about a relatively short distance (10 yards or less), most people simply cannot draw and accurately engage three moving targets in the amount of time that it would take an attacker to cover such a short distance.

A revolver, however, can be reliably fired multiple times at contact distance should that be necessary. Also, if you carry your revolver in a pocket, you can casually slip your hand into your pocket at the first sign of trouble. This will drastically reduce the amount of time required to draw your gun (it's already in your hand) but to the casual observer is not a threatening gesture (lots of people walk with their hands in their pockets). A shrouded or enclosed hammer revolver can be fired repeatedly from under or inside a garment such as a coat pocket should the need arise, this would most likely cause a semi-automatic to malfunction. Finally, while not my first choice to fight with, a .38 +P is a perfectly adequate cartridge for self-defense so long as the shooter can wield it effectively.
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Old April 18, 2010, 04:06 PM   #31
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Its so easy for me to sit here in my recliner and tell you what I'd do in a situation like the one presented. If they get the drop on me, and all they want is money I'd give it to them if I had any on me. Normally I don't but if I did..... I will not however take a a$$ whipping after I've given them what they wanted. At that point if they have a gun they will have to use it 'cause I plan on using mine.
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Old April 18, 2010, 04:20 PM   #32
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If displaying the firearm DOES NOT defuse the situation and the aggressors continue to advance you would address the threats in what is called Tactical Priority closest to the farthest away. Make em count cause there isn't a second chance. This is just what I would do
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Old April 18, 2010, 05:44 PM   #33
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Note: I don’t pretend to be speaking for everyone; each to his own but I believe I speak for many.

There is good reason to discuss when not to use a gun on a gun forum. Almost everyone here carries a gun and we fully intend to use it only if we absolutely have to; discussing avoidance is part of sharing ideas and methods of how to accomplish this.

I suspect that most of use will try to satisfy the BG with money, watch, and credit cards before pulling a gun and then only in reasonable fear of injury or death for us or family (or for an innocent bystander) will we draw and fire.

Why put yourself into a situation where you have to spend thousands in lawyer fees because you wanted to save a couple of hundred dollars. Yes, you might prove it was a justified shooting but like the old saying, “You might beat the rap but you won’t beat the ride.”

For me, if I’ve handed over money, watch, and cards and the BG wants to know what else I have in that bulging pocket then it becomes time to pull it to show him and be firing as soon as it clears leather—no other real choice in that case.

Discussions in these forums have certainly helped me in contemplating what to do in case of muggings or home invasions.

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Old April 18, 2010, 05:53 PM   #34
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I agree with some of the posts, but there is a potential problem, there were 3 people together that got assaulted, its not a given one of the 2 unarmed may get in the line of fire, YOUR line of fire. Second you open up and then they open up on your friends who may not be armed to defend themselves. These situations aren't cut and dry, shoot shoot shoot. We all talk about situational awareness and not putting yourself in a bad spot, they weren't aware and they put themselves in a bad spot! I think they may have felt safety in numbers, but if so, it was a false sense of security.

Second once your adrenaline starts flowing one can see things that aren't there like a perceived gun, and the opposite not see things that are there like your friend. Any of these puts you on trial for your freedom, yes better in court than dead, but these are potential pitfalls. This is why scenario's like Hogans alley are taught and taught again, I don't know too many people who are going to be able to fend off 3 armed assailants single handed, especially with a 5 or 6 shot weapon! How many times have we heard of gunfights between a trained cop and a perp at not much more than arms length, and in excess of 10 or more rounds fired and NO ONE gets hit!

Use of force must be used with discretion and even when you do everything right it can all go wrong real quick. No matter how good you are with a weapon on the range, real world is real fast, real chaotic, and real deadly once it comes to gunfire even with the best of training. Sadly we have no crystal ball to read the mind of an armed perp, but sometimes verbal and body language can give clues. Also agitating the perp is almost a guarantee to escalate the confrontation to violence.

lastly I am not saying don't engage the perp, but many of these situations turn out with only the loss of personal items. We must try to assess the situation, comply or shoot, either way its a risk. Many times when gunfire erupts with a group of people, sadly its usually an innocent bystander that takes a bullet. This situation was complicated by the numbers involved, the element of surprise, and no game plan. I'm not trying to bash anyone's reply, just playing the devils advocate.
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Old April 18, 2010, 06:10 PM   #35
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I won't cover the topic of whether or not to resist. That's really a judgement call that needs to be made based on the specific circumstances.

I will say, however, that if I was to decide to resist against multiple assailants I would go all out and do whatever it takes to win. The one advantage in this kind of situation is that if the bad guys had expected heavy resistance they most likely would have chosen somebody else. I would want to hit them hard and fast and hopefully put them on the defensive.

I firmly believe mindset will make a bigger difference in the outcome of this type of scenario than whether you have a 5 shot J frame or a 18 shot Glock 17.
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Old April 18, 2010, 06:49 PM   #36
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I get really tired of all the worry and banter about the legal consequences....

So here is a scenario for you.....guy's roll throw your fake wallet at them...they check it out...get angry because it's fake, so they take a pipe to you, and then get your real wallet...then they drag you and your wife in the car, take you around to the ATMs, where you help them clean out your bank, while they rape your wife in the car...then afterward they decide to rape YOU, while your wife watches...then they take you back to their pad, lock you and her up in the basement...keep her there, hostage, while they take you to the bank the next day, while they make you take out a home equty loan on your home, clean out the bank, wipe out your credit cards...and by this time, your wife has been passed around to all the bad guys buddies...then you get passed around to all their gay the mean time they hold you hostage to your parents, friends ect, and to get them to pay, they send videos of you screaming while your getting poked by their jailhouse buddies...

Then after they have all your stuff, all your money, all your orifices have been penetrated and stretched beyond known human limits, they drop you off in some park, kneecap the both of you, saying that if either of you drop a dime on them, they will kill your kids...

The good news to all of that when you do go to the cops, and they are running a rape kit on both you and your wife, you can feel pretty comfortable that you won't be prosecuted for having to shoot some bad guys.
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Old April 18, 2010, 06:57 PM   #37
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best plan is to prepare for the situation by arming yourself with a better gun. Simple as that. Get a good capacity semi auto or a larger caliber revolver.
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Old April 18, 2010, 07:56 PM   #38
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johns7022, you make some assumptions that are not supported by what has been posted.
... you throw your fake wallet at them...they check it out...get angry because it's fake ...
I'm not aware of any post that has advocated you hand the BGs your wallet, fake or not, and stand there while they rifle through it. I know for a fact that I have posted to the effect that if they take the wallet and leave, fine; but if they begin to go through it, you use that distraction.

But to make it clear, just in case, here it is: use the distraction to your advantage. You started off behind the power curve because they are attacking you, not vice versa. With the distraction, you have a chance to either catch up or to put them behind the power curve.

One more thing: Seeing a gun is different from seeing a gun pointed at you. I think there's been some combining of the two as if they are the same, but they are not.

If I see some guys who look like they mean to do me harm, and I "see" a gun, I'm going to draw. If they go for that gun, I'm going to fire. I say it that way because if instead they turn and run, I'm not going to shoot them. I think those are reasonable decisions. A jury may or may not agree with me if I have to shoot, but sometimes you just have to make a decision on the best info you have.

If I see some guys who look like they mean to do me harm, and I "see a gun pointed at me," I'm not going to draw. There's no way I can win that race. If they haven't already shot me, I'll try to find out what they want so I can toss them my wallet before they get too close. There's a good chance they won't shoot me if I toss them my wallet. If they run off, I go home alive. If they start rifling through my wallet, I use the distraction, draw, and do my best. If they keep coming, I draw and do my best.
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Old April 21, 2010, 12:41 PM   #39
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This is why it's good to have a plan. It's one thing for just you, or for you and your athletic friend, to face three armed muggers. It's something completely different if you're walking along with your wife or child. Running may not be an option if there's someone weaker than you.

What can you do? You might have a very basic code, like saying "okay, okay" means not to do anything but "fine, fine" means to run as fast as possible. It can mean having the other person pull out their phone at the first sign of trouble. It can even mean having the other person know where you keep your gun so that if you stand in front of them to shield them, the person can pull your gun for defense.

And, sometimes, you lose the race and all you can do is hope that by complying quickly you can get through it and make it through to the next day.
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Old April 26, 2010, 08:32 PM   #40
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pull out wallet, throw wallet at guy, run quick like a bunny. Not perfect but if they got what they want without any trouble maybe they wont chase your down. If they do then they would have done that anyway. I'm not getting into a gun fight with 3 armed guys one of which already has a gun pulled over my wallet I don't care how much money is left on my Metro card or how much time I will have to spend in the DMV getting a new drivers license.
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Old April 27, 2010, 11:09 PM   #41
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Give up the wallet

All the weapons the thugs had when they exited the car could cause grave injury. The two friends should not have separated when confronted by the 3 thugs in my opinion. They should stand their ground and give up the wallet when asked.

Most likely no chipped tooth or busted lip.

If one of the friends were armed, the smart move would be to comply with the wallet demand and see if the thugs leave. If they continue to ask for anything else after they got the wallet, I think it's time to get shoulder to shoulder with the friend and prepare for battle.
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Old April 28, 2010, 10:16 AM   #42
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Tough break for your friends, thankfully they weren't seriously injured or killed.

Generally I agree with the idea that lethal force isn't worth it to protect property, only life. I would gladly give up a $1000 watch, $500 cash, my leather wallet, my shoes, my shirt, my cell phone, my car, I'd even give them my socks if I knew we'd all go our separate ways without physical confrontation. I'm not a weak person, but to me it just isn't worth injury, all those "things" are insured or can be replaced. I personally take the same approach with my home, things can be replaced. That isn’t to say that if there was an intruder, I would wait to see if they just wanted things or were going to attack me or my family.. but that’s a separate discussion.

I also agree that if you're in a 3-on-2 confrontation, and whether they're armed (either with blunt objects, knives and/or firearms) or not, you're at a huge disadvantage. Unless you train very hard or grew up in a rough area, understand that a mugger, street thug, etc., has probably been in more real-life fights, more life-threatening situations, and has taken more beat-downs than you. They have less to lose, more to prove, and little if any thought about consequences of their actions. Let me reiterate, they have more to prove. If one of the three is the "new guy," he may be eager to catch a body (kill somebody, anybody) to build his reputation. Often, after taking everything you have to give, an up-and-comer might pop a victim in the head just to get a street reputation of being crazy, willing to kill on a whim.

I also agree with the observation that among criminals, going into such a mission they understand that they are ultimately for themselves, and will scatter when SHTF, to rendezvous later. While many criminals aren't organized, many are, and if you're confronted with a group of three armed men who box you in with their vehicle, it seems to me like they have a plan, and may have done this before.

On the more organized side of crime (especially Latino/Hispanic and black gangs in the south and west coast), some of them are extremely well organized. It is widely known that many of these gang members will enter the military, usually USMC, for the training in firearms and tactics. They will then bring that knowledge back to the streets and train their gang members to properly shoot, to set decoys and ambush, and even how to properly retreat/rear guard. I know for a fact that organized crime gangs in south Florida implement tactics such as these, and to top it off, when they roll on an opposing gang they are heavily armed: AKs , shotguns, and yes, Molitovs and grenades (both military and improvised). It's scary stuff.

In this particular scenario, while they may have only seen one gun, a pipe and knucks, that isn’t to say that’s all they had. As one person said, there may have been a sawed-off 12 gauge down someone’s leg. There may have been a .45 or a 9mm in someone’s waistband. There may have been a fourth assailant in the car, either at the wheel or in the back seat, that they didn’t notice.

Considering the two victims were unarmed, if I was one of them, I would have capitulated with my ultimate objective being a safe escape. Immediately, I would acknowledge the superior position held by the attackers, let them know that I know they are in control. In doing so, I would stall for 2-5 seconds and ever-so-slightly de-escalate the confrontation, allowing me to hopefully put a few steps between me and the attackers with the blunt weapons, and if possible, stepping in the direction of the shooter’s off-hand. As I did so, I would first encourage my friend to give up his cash and watch, while starting to do so myself.

Once the items were in hand, if possible, I would either put them on the ground or toss them low at the attacker with the gun. As he made a motion to retrieve them, I would grab my friend tightly and make a hasty but not aggressive retreat, putting something solid (wall, building, truck, etc.) between me and the gun as soon as possible, going in a direction towards where I may quickly find foot or automobile traffic. Chances are the attackers aren’t going to leave their vehicle to give chase once they have some valuables, they are going to take what they got and live to fight another day. If the gun-toting attacker does shoot, well, there’s not much you can do either way other than hope the first slug misses and run like hell. Again, chances are he isn’t going to shoot, because there is value in a street gun that is clean and not linked to any other incidents.

On the other hand, if I was armed, assuming concealed, the situation changes slightly. Depending on the circumstances, I would either draw immediately and start firing, or do almost exactly as I described above. My firearm of choice is a Glock 20, 10mm semiautomatic pistol. I keep one in the pipe so it comes out loaded with 16 rounds, and I have an additional 15 rounds in a second magazine. Typically I load (and train) with DoubleTap 135gr Nosler JHP or 180gr Bonded Defense JHP. For backup or lighter conceal, I’ll go with a Ruger LCP and an extra magazine.

The first approach is highly dependent on training. Recognize the threat. As the car approaches, my hand goes towards the Glock. This is the point to get into primal mode, not once you’re faced with multiple attackers. Breathe deep, exhale slow. Get the oxygen through to moderate your heart rate and stave off the initial fight/flight reaction. Determine how many attackers there are, and if possible how they are armed. While doing so, I am hopefully moving towards cover, and bringing my friend with me. If the driver made an aggressive move to pull in front of us and box us in, I would hopefully have muzzle on the driver’s window before he even got out. Clearly, it’s on, and if you can’t recognize that then you should have taken a cab. I might yell something like “get back in the car!” If they did not comply, I would try to identify where the highest risk is (likely the one with the gun) and put lead on target. Single or double shots, make ‘em count. Distribute between targets or car windows if they haven’t all gotten out to create confusion which may aid an early escape, or repeat until all threats are mitigated. If I haven’t done so already, load the second magazine retaining the first and any remaining rounds. Survey area and call 9-1-1 if friend hasn’t already.

I would not rely on a phony wallet or some other ploy. You might catch a hot one in the head just for trying.

The second approach involves giving up valuables as before, but at some point, being forced to draw your firearm. At this point, all bets are off. The only rule is a rule of the jungle, it's your life or their's. Draw, rely on your training and survival instincts, and roll the dice. I hope to never be faced with that scenario using anything stronger than simunition.

When the authorities arrive, it might be a good idea to have your weapon cleared, slide open.

I just wrote this off the top of my head, so I’m sure there are problems and parts where individual experience would prove my decisions to be less than prudent. I’m open to hear them.

Last edited by booker_t; April 28, 2010 at 10:25 AM.
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Old April 28, 2010, 01:55 PM   #43
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Fellows, i grew up in some tough neighborhoods, and here's my take on all
this. If im armed, and the situation goes down like its been described here,
Im pullin my gun and goin to work. I have been in a social shooting incident
where i shot my assailant. I KNOW that i am willing, cause ive already done
it. I dont know that the other guy is, and I am going to find out, if he and
two of his buddies attempt to rob me. I will not be a victim if I have the means on me to stop this. You guys may do whatever you think is right at
the time, Im not givin em anything I have, that Ive worked for! aint
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Old April 28, 2010, 02:24 PM   #44
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How happened to me 2.

I was 18 years old back then. My parents moved to a neighborhood just 5 miles away from my former home and where I still went daily to visit my buddies. I would hang out to return back home at night usually around 9pm-I prolonged my visit this particular night and was walking back home around 11:30pm. So this is what I used to do to minimize the odds of becoming a VICTIM. If I heard a car approaching from either angle, then would quickly hide behind a car, tree, trash can etc...while the car went by...The traffic was somewhat heavy that night crossing the neighborhoods! I had hid quite a few times- maybe 7, normally 1-3 times. So almost arriving home, less than a mile decided to stop hiding and just kept walking. I turned into my street and 2 cars came into it very fast, glanced & noticed that it was a female ahead driving alone, and in the car behind 3 guys. They quickly disappeared turning into another street further up...I didn't mind it much at the time as they went by real fast and had no business with me...but just 3 blocks from arriving to my house I see the same car coming back to exit the neighborhood and said to myself...Hmm It is too late to hide, they saw me already, should I seek cover behind this car ahead of holding a firing stand position (perhaps tipping my black cell phone up a little will disguise them as an alert armed citizen and won't mess with me), or would I be better off jumping the fence of this house on my left while they get by...seconds were running out. I had walked nearly 5 miles- hid around 7 times???...Pop- third choice comes to my mind...It is alright you have been overreacting- just chill, nothing is going to happen and then gasp...the car pulls to a sudden halt, guy opens the door and jumps out of it gun at hand pointing me blank on the chest, as he continues to approach me demanding my watch, wallet and 1st born (not I added that!). I felt so stupid, could have been avoided. They cleaned me, lucky didn't get hurt- lesson learned. Now I try not to (90% of the time) underestimate the power of the dark side...The other 10% I allow elders with advanced rheumatism to get 3 feets close as well as kids ages 10 or younger that don't look to WILD .
*Updated- got excited telling you my story that didn't left my 2 cents.... There is little to do HERE...they already caught you by SURPRISE! You either engage or you don't. If I had a gun and not buried deep inside my jeans pocket (like some guys do-take a hint), then I would size the opportunity to draw and shoot asap...say within the first 1 to 10 seconds of such threat.

Last edited by firing9mm; April 28, 2010 at 04:49 PM. Reason: Forgot to add my 2 cents...
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Old April 28, 2010, 06:51 PM   #45
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I agree with walking facing traffic for ordinary safety reasons.

As to the gun, anyone carrying in a remotely questionable area and situation should have his hand on the gun at all times. That means gun out of the holster and in coat pocket, ready to fire through the pocket if necessary. The bad guys will NOT give you a chance to read the book, consult your gun guru, or ask questions on a web site, and they won't even say "pretty please." They just jump at you and you better be ready to fire.

And no, you don't have to see a gun; a knife or piece of pipe is a deadly weapon and shooting is a legal and reasonable response to ADW.

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Old April 28, 2010, 07:14 PM   #46
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mygila i always liked the idea tossing a the wallet away to gain some time. the thing that troubles me about the whole situation is there are 3 guys but 1 gun. if/when i decide its going to get more serious than just a wallet, besides the obvious MOVE and shoot. what would the plan of defending be? In my mind, the guy with the gun is priority #1. the thing i worry is 5 .38 slugs are probably not going to stop the guy as quick as i can hope for. And now i have 20 oz club against a guy with a pipe and another with some knucks. i will bet anything i can't get a speed loader out of my pocket and in my gun quick enough to save my bacon. and the light just went on i'm going gun shoping

You have got to be kidding.
First of all, five slugs from a .38 in the torso will drop a guy like a 50 pound sack of potatoes.
But, that would be a big waste.
Give the guy with the gun two to the torso.
That would be a dilemma I would like to have, one guy with a pipe, one guy with brass knuckles, and I still have 3 shots.
The only problem would be, those other 2 guys would be running so fast it would be a difficult shot, probably could only hit one of them.
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Old April 29, 2010, 08:42 AM   #47
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Just listening to the radio this morning, 20yr veteran police officer and former NYC Police Commish was talking about being faced with an armed assaillant.

His first comment was that if you have gun pointed at you, that you should do exactly what the attacker wants, as they tell you to do it. Comply. As I said before, let them know that you acknowledge that they are in control of the situation; that's primarily why they brought the gun, for control.

Second, he said if they try to move the crimescene, in other words, try to get you to go with them somewhere, don't comply. Especially if you are female.

Third, if you feel as though their intent is to harm to kill you, or if you are able to identify them in such as way that they may be forced to kill you, then it's time to fight for your life, by whatever means necessary. Escape may not be an option.

He then told a story about when he was off-duty in NYC, coming out of a subway station where the last train had just departed. He was wearing a raincoat and had his weapon in his hand underneath, he said he would always have it in his hand in such environments. As he went up the steps to the street, about 1/3 of the way up he saw somebody standing at the top (the lookout) and saw a pair of sneakers (the mugger) coming up behind him. He turned around and was face-to-face with the potential mugger, gun drawn under the raincoat. He looked the mugger in the eye and said something like "What's up buddy?" and stood his ground. The mugger faltered a second, then said something like "Oh, the station must be closed, I'll go up to Chambers Street" and he replied "Yeah that sounds like a good idea.." End of conflict.
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Old April 29, 2010, 10:26 PM   #48
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Sound advice from NYPD

In my mind, the third situation is how I would react about the second situation if the thug wanted me to go somewhere else with him.

The last thing anyone should do is go along for the ride.
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Old April 29, 2010, 11:31 PM   #49
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curious on your opinion of a situation
Tell your friends to make up a better story next time.
A hit with a .45 ACP beats a hit with a .22 LR everytime. A hit with a .22 LR beats a miss with a .50 BMG everytime.
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Old April 30, 2010, 12:17 AM   #50
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One thing that always weighs on me is that when you use deadly force and kill a thug....

That someone may invoke a blood feud against me or my family.

Maybe I am a bit paranoid.
Don't know about blood feud. Simple retaliation might be the better term. Lots of people talk about defending themselves against gang members without the slightest concern about becoming a very real target for retaliation. I suspect that, where some gangs are concerned, it's a "club" requirement.

On the other hand, when a car cruises by and stops, and the occupants jump out to make you a crime victim, it might be hard to size everything up in an instant.

Here in Reno, couple years back, three individuals who were cruising decided to rob a poor 'ol fellow doing nothing more innocuous than washing his car. They had him trapped between his car and the wall as they came at him from two sides, and were armed with ball bats. When their would be victim shot one, the other compadre and the driver took off. Good thing, since his .32 Keltech jammed after the first shot. The gunshot "victim" (you know that's how the newpaer portrayed him) survived---barely.
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