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Old November 9, 2004, 12:05 PM   #1
Wadoo
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Is the Winchester Winclean 45ACP BEB ideal for defense?

Hello all, this is my first post on this forum.

I am intriqued by the Winchester 45 ACP Winclean BEB ammo. Not because of its intended target purpose but because it seems to me to be a great defensive round.

Given that penetration is key to handgun ammo effectiveness, I'm not convinced that expanding bullets are best for the many defensive scenarios one might find themselves in. Expanding JHP bullets in relatively slow 45 ACP can be shallow penetrators. Especially since the bullet may have to go through several layers or a barrier or two. At the same time, round nose bullets may be good penetrators but may slip through tissue a little too easily not creating as much damage as they could. Assuming the new Winclean 45 ACP feeds reliably, doesn't this seem to be a perfect bullet for those who subscribe to big, heavy bullets and deep penetration? It has a flat nose for crush and also provides the potential for limited expansion (BEB's have an exposed lead nose core), accuracy is superior, and its cost is relatively low allowing for much practice. The only downside may be the small pistol primer for reloaders, but not an issue for most.

Any opinions or other viewpoints?
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Old November 9, 2004, 12:08 PM   #2
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I dont know about these shells in particular, but overpenetration might be an issue? you dont wanna hae it go clean thru, then there is energy not delivered where it needs to be.
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Old November 9, 2004, 12:26 PM   #3
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I think the best bullet is capable of penetrating the target, two holes are better than one, yet there are a lot of factors that keep even FMJ from doing so. Over-penetration is a subjective term that I don't think practically applies to most handgun bullets.
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Old November 9, 2004, 12:28 PM   #4
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to me, over penetration means going further than you want. (thru the target) Is my definition wrong?
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Old November 9, 2004, 05:59 PM   #5
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Welcome aboard Wadoo!

The really nice thing about it is that everyone can choose whatever ammo they like the best or are the most confident with. However, I personally would not choose Winclean for my defense ammo because it is not recommended for that use by Winchester. Winchester recommends Winclean for target and match use. Winclean came about to fill a need for cleaner and healthier indoor target ammo. I would stick with the ammunition manufactures recommendations, simply because they're the experts and they spend research and development dollars testing that kind of thing. The hollow points are still the way to go. Golden Sabres, Gold Dots, Hydro-shoks and the like would be my choice. Just my opinion, but you know what they say about opinions.

Good luck and keep posting!
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Old November 10, 2004, 01:19 PM   #6
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Avizpls,

I think your definition is correct. The problem is that it is very difficult to engineer the depth of penetration of a particular bullet since there are so many shooting scenarios. A bullet that consistently stays within the target mass in tests may not be sufficient if various obstacles are encountered. Case in point: Miami Shootout...Silvertip 9mm penetrates arm before entering body mass, resulting in insufficient penetration and damage to disable attacker quickly. Attacker goes on to kill and injure FBI agents. ...or... Attacker shoots at you from a vehicle and you return fire; car door and/or windows and possibly limbs and clothing are potential barriers that may impede your bullets before they ever strike vital organs. What may be sufficient penetration in some scenarios may be under-penetration in others.
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Old November 10, 2004, 01:25 PM   #7
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eka,

Thanks for the welcome. Yep, there are lots of choices. Does anyone know if there is there a website that presents objective data (other than Marshall/Sanow) on the performance of hollow-point vs solid bullets in defense situations?
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Old November 10, 2004, 03:11 PM   #8
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Below is a site that reviews testing conducted by the FBI on various calibers and bullet types. I'm always skeptical of comparisons made between real defense shootings. There are so many variables that factor in, you end up trying to compare apples and oranges a lot of times.


http://www.home.earthlink.net/~gnappi/10fbi.htm

Last edited by eka; November 10, 2004 at 03:54 PM.
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Old November 10, 2004, 09:24 PM   #9
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Interesting, thanks!
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Old November 11, 2004, 07:07 AM   #10
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Winchester Winclean is NOT a good round to be using for self defense. There have been problems with ignition of the ammo during firing. Beyond that, we have found that the ammo does not cycle consistently well and after firing, the barrel is coated with nasty copper/brass plating from the rounds.

Wadoo, if you are looking for a cartridge that will penetrate deeply, especially after going through barriers, then you do NOT want .45 acp and more than likely do not want a pistol in general. You claim that you don't give credit to expansion for doing damage, but then note that the BEB flat nose has the potential for limited expansion.

As for the notion that two holes are better than one, I take it that the comment is meant to convey a single through and through shot. T&T produces one hole, not two. There is an entry and exit, but it is all the same single hole, just different sides of it. To suggest it is two holes is like saying that when you drive over a nail and get a flat tire where the nail creates a single puncture in the tread is two holes, one on the outside and one on the inside. It isn't. It is just one hole.
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Old November 11, 2004, 10:05 AM   #11
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After firing 200 rounds of this ammo in both a Colt Defender and Commander (100 rounds each) yesterday, my findings are:

(1) all rounds ignited cleanly
(2) blast and felt recoil were higher than standard ball rounds, somewhat severe in the Defender
(3) no noticeable brass residue in barrel
(4) fired cases exceptionally clean, almost new looking
(5) accurate (all shots in the black 25 yd target @ 15 yds)
(6) all positively extracted
(6) one feed failure in the Defender. Cleared with slide tap.

DoubleNaught, thanks for your comments. re: holes... yes, one hole with entry and exits. re: expansion... my point was that bullets designed to expand can expand too much and too fast when they do, and many times not when they are supposed to. BEBs are not designed to expand but have an exposed lead core in the nose essentially giving them a jacketed soft point configuration. In my view, this would give the potential of limited expansion (not a bad thing) without hindering penetration. My other thought was that a flat nose configuration would provide crush potential as opposed to a rounded ogive.

While 100 rounds in each gun is not conclusive, I didn't like the one failure to feed (ball ammo has been 100% in both guns). And I didn't like the blast and recoil in the Defender (seemed more like +P) although the dynamics were fine in the Commander.
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Old November 11, 2004, 05:20 PM   #12
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I looked at winchester's web site and USA45JHP is a PD ammo that has 2 different pics for it. One has a large exposed lead nose with some cuts around where the jacket ends, the other has a standard looking HP. The description does not mention expansion.



Here is the other Pic on the page



Here is a link to the page it may have velocites, hope this helps.

http://www.winchester.com/products/c...b21hdGlj&use=3

Here is a link to a thread that gives peoples personal favs.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4
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Old November 13, 2004, 11:18 AM   #13
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Both of those photos are incorrect. The top shows a revolver JSP bullet, the bottom a 230 gr JHP. I've attached the correct photos.
Attached Images
File Type: bmp winclean bullet.bmp (43.1 KB, 162 views)
File Type: bmp winclean 230 gr cartridge.bmp (53.6 KB, 115 views)
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Old November 13, 2004, 11:33 AM   #14
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I personally would not feel under gunned with 230gr FMJ ammunition.

However (having never fired WinClean in a 45) I have had a ton of ignition problems with WinClean in 38 special. I would therefore have to recommend some other ball ammo.

..My $.02
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Old November 14, 2004, 07:22 PM   #15
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I never meant to show winclean ammo, just another option to your search for a type of ammo that you were looking for. I had thought your testing had ruled winclean out because of a failure in your gun. They are pics of soupposedly the same bullet from on page on winchester's site.
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Old November 14, 2004, 08:38 PM   #16
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Maybe the problems are occasional, such as by batch? If so, then Winclean isn't a good choice for defense. As near as I can tell from scanning the following threads, some of us have had very bad problems with Winclean and some have not. If it works well in your gun and you are happy with it, then that is great for you. Personally, I won't waste my money on the stuff because of the problems it has caused.

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthre...nclean+problem (my original post on Winclean problems)
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthre...nclean+problem
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthre...nclean+problem
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthre...nclean+problem
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthre...nclean+problem
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthre...nclean+problem
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthre...t=winclean+ftf
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Old November 14, 2004, 10:31 PM   #17
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170 gr. Super Clean NT® (Tin) Super Clean NT® (Tin

http://www.winchester.com/products/c...b21hdGlj&use=2



This is the only bullet I could find that was a target round that had an exposed nose. The pics and link I posted were for a self defense load, I am going by the pic because I have never seen the ammo before I am not sure but I do not think the material in this bullet is even lead. Go to winchester's site, and if their pics are wrong please inform them.
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Old November 16, 2004, 06:40 PM   #18
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Quote:
Given that penetration is key to handgun ammo effectiveness, I'm not convinced that expanding bullets are best for the many defensive scenarios one might find themselves in. Expanding JHP bullets in relatively slow 45 ACP can be shallow penetrators. Especially since the bullet may have to go through several layers or a barrier or two.
Why is it a "given" that penetration is paramount? I guess I could see it if we were discussing mouse guns, but not here. The bullet has to go through enough stuff to reach the vital organs or CNS, and hollowpoints do this as often as we could hope for any common handgun round. Barriers? Cops have to shoot through more barriers than us common folk, and they overwhelmingly choose hollowpoints. The sharp edge on the mouth actually cuts its way through many materials better than the blunt force from a roundnose. Either way, there is no "magic bullet". Pick whatever functions best in your gun, and forget it. The time you devote to this subject could be FAR better spent by practicing drawing, dry firing, live practice, etc.
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Old November 17, 2004, 01:23 AM   #19
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i agree

i think that people truly worry about round choice way to much. use what shoots the best in your gun. on the norm a pistol round can penitrate better and accomplish more trauma than other rounds. the engergy transfer is normally better in hand guns given that pistol rounds are shorter and tend not to tumble as much as longer/larger rounds. in this, i would say that choosing your round is not near as vital as trainning your self to put the round you choose were it is needed. now everything i just said changes all together when you start adding hollow point and or hydro-shock and those rounds designed to transfer energy in specific ways. so good luck hunting the rite round for your self.

PS: hell i use what ever is the cheapest. 230 gr full metall jacket. get um for about 16.00 per 100.
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Old November 20, 2004, 11:36 PM   #20
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I agree that bullet shape is less important than reliability. You should shoot the most reliable ammo you have. A functioning gun and a hit with any bullet is better than a jamb.

My original purpose was to discuss the Winclean bullet and cartridge since at first glance it had the potential of terminally performing like or better than a FMJ -IF- it functioned as reliably. From the discussion, it appears that several have had functional problems with it.

To the question posed by possum, here is an excellent analysis as why penetration is most important along with permanent wound cavity.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm
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Old November 21, 2004, 12:13 AM   #21
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Wadoo you say that my post #12 that both photo are incorrect. Incorrect in what way.

Quote:
I looked at winchester's web site and USA45JHP is a PD ammo that has 2 different pics for it. One has a large exposed lead nose with some cuts around where the jacket ends, the other has a standard looking HP. The description does not mention expansion.
I describe the ammo and show pics of it. I never represented it as anything other than what winchester said it was. I thought that winclean was shown to be an unreliable ammo and sought to give you some more choices. I just want to know was I incorrect to offer the advice, or was winchester's pics incorrect of the ammo they advertised. I would appreciate some clarification. I do not want to start any trouble, you can say that you do not want my info and I won't post it, I was confused by the photos myself and thought it strange. After doing research I believe that they put a close up of a .45 colt maybe, instead of the proper bullet. My hornady reloading guide lists a lead SWC, and l-c/t for the 45.acp.

Last edited by Danindetroit; November 21, 2004 at 01:01 AM.
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Old November 21, 2004, 06:37 AM   #22
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the possum, why is penetration paramount? Simple. If you don't penetrate, you don't do the damage needed to physically stop an attacker. Penetration is a very real concern issue with mouse guns, handguns, shotguns, and rifles. We aren't discussing mouse guns, but we are discussing handguns and handguns often have failure to stop issues, in part due to penetration matters.

I would like to know where you get the information that the mouths of hollowpoints all the bullet to cut through materials better than a round nose. What materials are you talking about? What study showed this to be true?
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Old November 22, 2004, 08:08 PM   #23
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Reliability, shot placement, penetration and then expansion

W...

The first thing we look for in duty ammunition is reliability. We have had enough of the Winclean shot during our courses to know it is not reliable for defense usage.

As long as you are going with one of the major ammunition manufactures defense load you shouldn't have any problems. The bottom line is it has to go bang, hit the target, penetrate deep enough to destroy the vitals and a bonus would be expansion.

Later,
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Old November 23, 2004, 11:39 PM   #24
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Danindetroit,

I was just pointing out that the top photo isn't a 45ACP bullet. It looks more like a 44 or a 45 Colt as you said. I believe Winchester posted an incorrect pic on their website; I saw that too. The other bullet shown isn't a Winclean bullet, which I thought you were intending to show (I may have misread your intent). I do like the design of that third bullet though. I wonder if it is available in 230gr.

Thanks for the input. I appreciate the feedback and alternatives.

Possum, re: penetration: It's better to drill to the core than make craters. My biggest concern with JHP is that there seems to be a disconnect with what the manufacturers are telling us to buy and the evidence of properly functioning JHPs coming up short (shallow). Even though these bullets look impressive in gelatin, to me it only suggests what might happen if you have to shoot a crazed spineless gelatin block.

Last edited by Wadoo; November 24, 2004 at 12:25 AM.
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Old November 24, 2004, 02:31 PM   #25
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Wadoo & Doublenaught-
Of course I realize the bullet must penetrate enough to reach the vitals. What I'm saying is, it should be a non-issue with most .45 hollowpoints.
The link provided says:

Quote:
It is essential to bear in mind that the single most critical factor remains penetration. While penetration up to 18 inches is preferable, a handgun bullet MUST reliably penetrate 12 inches of soft body tissue at a minimum, regardless of whether it expands or not.
Yep. 12-18 inches of penetration through flesh and bone is no problem for any of the .45 hollowpoints I've used on animals. They go clean through as is; hardball can do no more. Good .45 hollowpoint bullets (not talking about frangibles) simply do not make shallow "craters", Wadoo.

If penetration were as big a deal as we're making it out to be, then every PD in the country would issue .44 mags with heavy hardcast ammo.

As is, Jeff summed it up nicely. There are more important things to worry over.
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